See related files: (EFF Archive) (Cryptome Archive) (2600 Archive) (Harvard DVD OpenLaw Project)

Emmanuel Goldstein Deposition, in MPAA v. 2600

NY; June 27-28, 2000

The continued video deposition of Emmanuel Goldstein on June 28, 2000.
  9                                      )
                      PlaintiffS,        )00 Civ. 277
 10                                      )(LAK)(RLE)
                   vs.                   )
 11                                      )
 12  A/K/A "EMMANUEL GOLDSTEIN";         ) 
     ROMAN KAZAN; AND 2600               )
 13  ENTERPRISES, INC.                   )
 14                   Defendant.         )
 18                New York, New York
 19              Tuesday, June 27, 2000
 24  Reported by:
     Thomas R. Nichols, RPR
 25  JOB NO. 110287

  6                        June 27, 2000
  7                        10:20 a.m.
  9             Deposition of EMMANUEL GOLDSTEIN, 
 10       held at the offices of Proskauer Rose LLP, 
 11       1585 Broadway, New York, New York, pursuant 
 12       to Notice, before Thomas R. Nichols, a 
 13       Registered Professional Reporter and a 
 14       Notary Public of the State of New York. 

  2  A P P E A R A N C E S:
  5       Attorneys for Plaintiffs
  6             1585 Broadway
  7             New York, New York 10036-8299
  8       BY:   LEON GOLD, ESQ.
  9             CARLA M. MILLER, ESQ.
 13       Attorneys for Defendants
 14             488 Madison Avenue
 15             New York, New York 10022
 16       BY:   MARTIN GARBUS, ESQ.
 17             EDWARD HERNSTADT, ESQ.
 20       MARK D. LITVACK, ESQ.

  1                 Proceedings
  2             THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  This is tape 
  3       number one of the videotape deposition of 
  4       Mr. Emmanuel Goldstein in the matter 
  5       Universal City Studios, Inc. et al., 
  6       plaintiffs, versus Shawn C. Reimerdes, et 
  7       al., defendants, in the United States 
  8       District Court, Southern District of 
  9       New York, Number 00 Civ 277(LAK)(RLE). 
 10             This deposition is being held at 1585 
 11       Broadway on June 27, 2000, at approximately 
 12       10:20 a.m.  My name is Ruben Martinez from 
 13       the firm of Esquire Video Services.  The 
 14       court reporter is Mr. Tom Nichols in 
 15       association with Esquire Deposition 
 16       Services. 
 17             Will the counsels please introduce 
 18       themselves.
 19             MR. GOLD:  My name is Leon Gold.  I am 
 20       with Proskauer Rose, counsel to the 
 21       plaintiffs. 
 22             MS. MILLER:  Carla Miller with 
 23       Proskauer Rose, counsel to all plaintiffs. 
 24             MR. LITVACK:  Mark Litvack with the 
 25       Motion Picture Association of America, 

  1                 Proceedings
  2       counsel for plaintiffs. 
  3             MS. FREIHEIT:  Jessica Freiheit, 
  4       summer associate, Proskauer Rose. 
  5             MR. GARBUS:  Martin Garbus, Frankfurt 
  6       Garbus, one of the attorneys for the 
  7       defendant. 
  8             MR. HERNSTADT:  And Edward Hernstadt 
  9       of Frankfurt Garbus. 
 10             THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  Will the court 
 11       reporter please swear in the witness. 
 12             MR. GARBUS:  Just let me note that the 
 13       caption you read is incorrect.  It should be 
 14       changed, that two of the people you 
 15       mentioned are no longer part of the case, 
 16       but we will give you a correct caption 
 17       before you type this up. 
 18             (Witness sworn.) 
 19             MR. GOLD:  Actually, Martin, I don't 
 20       think the caption has ever been officially 
 21       changed.
 22             MR. GARBUS:  It has been.
 23             MR. GOLD:  Did you file something? 
 24             MR. GARBUS:  Yes. 
 25             MR. HERNSTADT:  We didn't file 

  1                 Proceedings
  2       anything, but Miss Reyes, the judge's law 
  3       clerk, asks, every time we go to court she 
  4       asks, What's going on?  Aren't these people 
  5       out of the case?  And she said she was going 
  6       to talk to the Clerk about getting it 
  7       changed.  
  8             MR. GOLD:  Thus it isn't changed.
  9             MR. HERNSTADT:  I think it's been 
 10       done, but I don't know for sure.
 11             MS. MILLER:  Because our understanding 
 12       procedurally was that the defendant that had 
 13       settled out had to make a motion to change 
 14       the caption to remove their names.  But 
 15       we'll figure that out. 
 16             MR. HERNSTADT:  We'll figure that out.  
 17       I hope that the judge's deputy can take care 
 18       of it. 
 19             MS. MILLER:  Perhaps.
 20             (Continued on next page.)

  1                  Goldstein
  2  E M M A N U E L   G O L D S T E I N ,   called as a  
  3       witness, having been duly sworn by a Notary 
  4       Public, was examined and testified as 
  5       follows:
  7  MR. GOLD: 
  8       Q.    Mr. Goldstein, do you understand that 
  9  people who create artistic work are entitled to 
 10  copyright protection?
 11       A.    Absolutely. 
 12             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question.   
 13       Direct the witness not to answer.
 14             MR. GOLD:  On what ground? 
 15             MR. GARBUS:  I think he is being 
 16       examined as a fact witness.
 17             MR. GOLD:  I asked him what 
 18       understanding he has. 
 19             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question.  
 20       I will allow the witness to answer. 
 21       Q.    What rights do you understand copyright 
 22  holders have? 
 23             MR. GARBUS:  Object to the question.
 24             THE WITNESS:  Can I answer anyway?  
 25       OK.

  1                  Goldstein
  2       A.    Basically if you create something, 
  3  you're entitled to benefit from it.  No problem 
  4  with that. 
  5       Q.    Do you understand that copyright holders 
  6  do have a right to decide who can see or use their 
  7  work?
  8       A.    That's not my understanding of how 
  9  copyright works. 
 10       Q.    What is your understanding of how a 
 11  copyright works? 
 12             MR. GARBUS:  I think I will object to 
 13       this and I will direct the witness not to 
 14       answer.  The witness is not a lawyer.  The 
 15       same objections were made when Mr. Valenti 
 16       was being examined and he was directed not 
 17       to answer a question.   I direct the witness 
 18       not to answer.
 19       Q.    Do you understand that people who have 
 20  copyrights have the right to maximize their return 
 21  from the copyright?
 22       A.    Yes. 
 23       Q.    What does that mean to you, maximize the 
 24  return on their copyrighted work?
 25       A.    It means they are entitled to benefit 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  however much the market dictates they will benefit 
  3  from the selling of their work.
  4       Q.    Do you understand that the motion 
  5  picture companies who have copyrights on their 
  6  movies have that right?
  7       A.    Yes. 
  8       Q.    Do copyright holders have the right to 
  9  decide as you understand it who will see their 
 10  work?
 11             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question.
 12       A.    I don't see how that's possible. 
 13       Q.    Do copyright holders have the right -- 
 14  for instance, if the copyright holder is a 
 15  novelist, do you understand that he would have the 
 16  right to decide who can sell his books to the 
 17  public? 
 18             MR. GARBUS:  I object to it.  
 19       Mr. Goldstein's version of the copyright law 
 20       is not at issue.  What is at issue is what 
 21       he did.  And to suggest that because he has 
 22       one set of beliefs rather than another set 
 23       of beliefs, something that is lawful and 
 24       appropriate is somehow unlawful and 
 25       appropriate, because any view he had it 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       seems to me is improper. 
  3             It seems to me what you're doing is 
  4       you're asking questions for the benefit of 
  5       the viewing audience and that the judge 
  6       would not permit at trial the kinds of 
  7       questions you are now asking. 
  8             MR. GOLD:  You can answer the question.
  9             THE WITNESS:  I forgot the question.  
 10             MR. GOLD:  Can you read it back.  
 11             (A portion of the record was read.)
 12       A.    Yes. 
 13       Q.    Do you understand that copyright holders 
 14  have the right to protect their work against people 
 15  who would use it without permission?
 16       A.    Absolutely. 
 17       Q.    Do you believe that anyone is entitled 
 18  to assist others in using or taking the copyright 
 19  work without permission? 
 20             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 
 21       the question.  I would wait for a direction 
 22       from the judge before the witness is 
 23       required to answer that. 
 24             MR. GOLD:  You're directing witness 
 25       not to answer that question? 

  1                  Goldstein
  2             MR. GARBUS:  No, I will allow the 
  3       witness to answer.
  4             MR. GOLD:  Thank you. 
  5             MR. GARBUS:  I would like to speak to 
  6       the witness for five minutes at this point 
  7       before we go on with the deposition. 
  8             MR. GOLD:  First of all, do you want 
  9       to answer the pending question? 
 10             Would you read the question back to 
 11       the witness. 
 12             (A portion of the record was read.)
 13       A.    I think that depends on the definition 
 14  of the word "assist."  If you're explaining how 
 15  technology works, then absolutely you're allowed to 
 16  describe that, to explain that. 
 17             If you're talking about leading somebody 
 18  by the hand to make an illegal copy of something, 
 19  then no, absolutely not. 
 20             MR. GARBUS:  Can we take that 
 21       five-minute break? 
 22             MR. GOLD:  Well, I object to that, 
 23       Mr. Garbus, because I think based on what we 
 24       have done so far, and since we only started 
 25       about seven minutes ago, that there can't be 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       any reason for a break other than to 
  3       instruct your witness on how to deal with 
  4       certain questions along the lines I am 
  5       asking.  So I am going to take that position 
  6       with the judge.  I think it's improper. 
  7             MR. GARBUS:  OK.  We had as a courtesy 
  8       throughout these depositions, irrespective 
  9       of when it occurred, always allowed -- and 
 10       this happened repeatedly with your witness, 
 11       any time a lawyer defending a case said I 
 12       would like to speak to a witness, even when 
 13       a question was posed, we had extended that 
 14       courtesy to each other.  Basically we 
 15       extended it to you because these were your 
 16       witnesses being examined.  I would just 
 17       expect that we would get the same courtesy 
 18       here.
 19             MR. GOLD:  Yes, but we didn't take a 
 20       break five minutes after the deposition 
 21       started.
 22             MR. GARBUS:  Yes, we did.  We did the 
 23       exact same thing as previously.
 24             MR. GOLD:  In what depositions? 
 25             MR. GARBUS:  I don't have all the 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       depositions in front of me.  My memory is  
  3       we did it with Schulman. 
  4       Q.    What is your understanding of the 
  5  meaning of the word "assist"?
  6             MR. GARBUS:  I would object to the 
  7       form.  This witness is not a lawyer.  He is 
  8       not being deposed as a lawyer.  He is a 
  9       journalist who printed information, and I 
 10       think to ask him his definition of "assist" 
 11       is improper except to the extent that he had 
 12       conversations with his lawyer, and with his 
 13       lawyer he had discussions of that word, and 
 14       to that extent I would claim the privilege 
 15       with respect to it. 
 16             Do you have any independent knowledge 
 17       of what that word means other than the 
 18       conversations you've had with me or with 
 19       Mr. Hernstadt?  And if it is based on 
 20       conversations you've had with me and 
 21       Mr. Hernstadt, then just it's based on 
 22       conversations with your lawyer, and then 
 23       it's privileged. 
 24             THE WITNESS:  Uh-huh.
 25       A.    We did discuss that, so I would have to 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  say it's privileged. 
  3       Q.    Do you ever use the word "assist" in 
  4  your writing?
  5       A.    I may have on occasion.
  6       Q.    What does it mean when you use it?
  7       A.    To help, but it's a very general type of 
  8  a word.
  9       Q.    Just tell me what it means to you.
 10       A.    To help, to aid.
 11       Q.    To help or aid?
 12       A.    Yes. 
 13       Q.    Using that definition of the word 
 14  "assist," do you understand that anyone is entitled 
 15  to assist others in taking or using a copyright 
 16  work without permission? 
 17             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to it.  To 
 18       the extent of your knowledge of copyright 
 19       law or the word "assist" comes from 
 20       conversations with me or your attorneys, 
 21       then just say it.  And to the extent that 
 22       these discussions were held in the context 
 23       of preparation for this case, it is 
 24       privileged.
 25       A.    Again, that's something that we 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  discussed.  Whether it's a synonym of the word 
  3  "assist," it's still something we discussed. 
  4       Q.    When did that discussion take place?  
  5  Just the date.
  6       A.    Before we came over here.
  7       Q.    Today.
  8       A.    Yes. 
  9       Q.    And you spent about an hour?
 10       A.    Not on the word "assist."
 11       Q.    With Mr. Garbus?
 12       A.    But, yeah, on various things, yes.
 13       Q.    Had you met with him before for the 
 14  purpose of preparing for your deposition?
 15       A.    Once, yes.
 16       Q.    When was that?
 17       A.    Yesterday. 
 18       Q.    When was it you talked about whether 
 19  anyone is entitled to assist others in taking 
 20  someone's copyrighted work without permission? 
 21             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to the 
 22       question as privileged.
 23       Q.    Today or yesterday? 
 24             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to the 
 25       question as privileged.  When he spoke to 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       his lawyer about it is privileged. 
  3             THE WITNESS:  Should I answer? 
  4             MR. GARBUS:  Yes.
  5       A.    Today. 
  6       Q.    Did you have any understanding prior to 
  7  yesterday of whether anyone was entitled to assist 
  8  others in using a copyrighted work without 
  9  permission?
 10             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to it 
 11       except to the extent that you had some 
 12       awareness of whether linking was permitted 
 13       or not permitted and where you got that 
 14       understanding.
 15       Q.    I am not interested in your definition 
 16  of the word "linking" or posting in this question. 
 17             What I am asking you is before you 
 18  talked to your lawyers about the subject, your 
 19  present lawyers about the subject, did you have any 
 20  understanding before that of whether anyone was 
 21  entitled to assist others in taking a copyrighted 
 22  work without permission? 
 23             MR. GARBUS:  I object to it.  That 
 24       specifically -- object to form.  That 
 25       specifically relates to the question of 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       linking.  So if he had some knowledge of 
  3       whether linking was permissible or not 
  4       permissible, the question is did he have any 
  5       discussions about linking or did he have any 
  6       knowledge either from the previous court's 
  7       decision or now about linking, which is what 
  8       assisting is. 
  9             MR. GOLD:  Can you read the question 
 10       back to the witness, and then I am going to 
 11       ask you to answer that, sir. 
 12             (A portion of the record was read.)
 13       A.    I had an opinion.  Yes. 
 14       Q.    What was your opinion?
 15       A.    That any kind of copyright infringement 
 16  is wrong.  Helping someone obviously to infringe 
 17  upon copyright would be wrong too. 
 18       Q.    Prior to yesterday did you have any 
 19  understanding of whether anyone was entitled to 
 20  break through a protective device which protects 
 21  digital copyrighted work in order to take that work 
 22  without permission? 
 23             MR. GARBUS:  Objection unless you're 
 24       also including the term "fair use."  It's 
 25       misleading unless you put that qualifier in 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       the sentence. 
  3             MR. GOLD:  Do you remember the 
  4       question, Mr. Goldstein?
  5             THE WITNESS:  I'd appreciate having it 
  6       read back. 
  7             (A portion of the record was read.)
  8       A.    Yes. 
  9       Q.    What was your understanding?
 10       A.    That that kind of thing was wrong.  That 
 11  taking something without permission is wrong.
 12       Q.    Is there a time in 1999 when you were 
 13  posting DeCSS?
 14       A.    In 1999 as of late November we mirrored 
 15  the site on our web site. 
 16       Q.    Did 2600 ever post DeCSS?
 17       A.    That's what mirroring is, yes. 
 18       Q.    For what purpose?
 19       A.    At the time it had only just happened a 
 20  couple of weeks earlier.  We had noted the events 
 21  as someone had figured out the encryption standard 
 22  being used by DVDs and had found it to be rather 
 23  badly written. 
 24             When we saw that those people were being 
 25  intimidated and forced to shut down their web 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  sites, as journalists we stood up and said this is 
  3  wrong.  And then we were listed then in all future 
  4  court records.
  5       Q.    You only mirrored DeCSS after this suit 
  6  was started?
  7       A.    No, we mirrored DeCSS after we became 
  8  aware that people around the world were being 
  9  threatened because they were showing people how the 
 10  encryption worked.
 11       Q.    What was the purpose of the mirror?
 12       A.    As journalists we have a very firm sense 
 13  of freedom of information, and we believe people 
 14  have the right to know how things work.  As a 
 15  publisher of a magazine that deals with such 
 16  issues, I feel strongly that we all have both the 
 17  desire and the right to know how things around us 
 18  operate.  And I don't see that as related in any 
 19  way to theft of those services. 
 20       Q.    When you mirrored or posted DeCSS on 
 21  2600, how did you make sure that people who simply 
 22  wanted to see movies that were copyrighted without 
 23  buying them would not use DeCSS?
 24       A.    Well, there's two answers to that.  
 25  First of all, when you tell someone how something 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  works, when you give information out, people can 
  3  always use information in a good or a bad way.  
  4  That's just the nature of information. 
  5             The second part of that is that, what 
  6  was posted, DeCSS, has got nothing to do with 
  7  illegal copies.  And I think that's been proven 
  8  time and again.  I don't think a single case of 
  9  copyright violation has been traced to DeCSS.  
 10  Copies of DVDs have been made. 
 11             We had in fact reported two years 
 12  earlier on November 25, 1997, on one of our radio 
 13  shows that illegal copies of DVDs were being made 
 14  in what is known as bit by bit transfer using a 
 15  program called SoftDVD.  And what the DeCSS code 
 16  showed instead was that the encryption was weak, 
 17  and that encryption was more about control of the 
 18  playing back as to where you played it back and how 
 19  you played it back, not making copies. 
 20       Q.    Did you understand at the time you 
 21  posted DeCSS that most people who owned computers 
 22  would not understand how DeCSS works even if they 
 23  downloaded DeCSS?
 24       A.    Most people I know who have computers 
 25  would understand it.

  1                  Goldstein
  2       Q.    But you know far fewer than 50 percent 
  3  of the people in the United States that have 
  4  computers?
  5       A.    Absolutely, yes.
  6       Q.    You know far fewer than 2 percent of the 
  7  people who own computers.
  8             MR. GARBUS:  We would agree it is 
  9       one-tenth of one million.
 10       A.    I don't know that many people.
 11       Q.    Did you believe it was appropriate to 
 12  post DeCSS even though ten people, and only ten 
 13  people, might use that, might download it for the 
 14  purpose of finding out how it works? 
 15             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to the form 
 16       of the question.  There's been no proof that 
 17       ten people have used it.  I object to the 
 18       form of the question, about whether he knew 
 19       or understood. 
 20       A.    I would have to say that if I applied 
 21  that logic to everything I wrote, I wouldn't be 
 22  writing anything.  Because someone can always take 
 23  what I've written and use it in a bad way and then 
 24  I would be up nights worrying about, you know, what 
 25  they did wrong.  I don't think anyone has ever used 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  DeCSS to pirate a film.
  3       Q.    Do I take it that you agree that you had 
  4  the right or you believe you had the right to post 
  5  DeCSS even though far less than one percent of the 
  6  people who would download it would have any 
  7  interest in how CSS or DeCSS works? 
  8             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 
  9       the question. 
 10       A.    I am not sure it is possible to say how 
 11  many people who downloaded it understand it.   I 
 12  don't think a significant portion of the American 
 13  public downloaded it. 
 14             I do think the people who went to the 
 15  web site read the text that surrounded it and 
 16  hopefully learned something from the text, and if 
 17  they were interested in pursuing it further, 
 18  learning more about the technology, then they had 
 19  to look at the program as well.
 20       Q.    Was there anything wrong in your 
 21  printing the text that accompanied the letters 
 22  DeCSS?  
 23       A.    I'm not sure I understand your question. 
 24             MR. GARBUS:  Objection to form.
 25       Q.    You had an absolute right, didn't you, 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  in saying whatever you said on your web site except 
  3  for DeCSS?  Isn't that right? 
  4             MR. GARBUS:  Objection to the form of 
  5       the question.  He can't refer to the term 
  6       "DeCSS" on his Web site?  Is that the 
  7       question? 
  8             MR. GOLD:  You can answer.
  9             THE WITNESS:  Can you just repeat that 
 10       back? 
 11             MR. GARBUS:  I didn't understand the 
 12       question. 
 13             (A portion of the record was read.)
 14       A.    I had the right to say what I said on 
 15  the web site, and I believe that extends to posting 
 16  the code as well. 
 17       Q.    Do you or any corporation you're 
 18  affiliated with have a copyright, own a copyright?
 19       A.    Yes, our words are copywritten in our 
 20  magazine.
 21       Q.    Who caused them to be copywritten?
 22       A.    I did.
 23       Q.    Why?
 24       A.    It's standard to have a copyright to 
 25  protect your interest.  Someone could take 2600 and 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  just simply reproduce it if we had no copyright.
  3       Q.    What interests were you protecting?
  4       A.    Well, our interests obviously.  We have 
  5  words that we write and we don't want somebody else 
  6  just taking them.  But by the same token, we have 
  7  no problem with people spreading our information 
  8  around.  Because we write it for the purpose of 
  9  being read.  But we do hold the copyright.
 10       Q.    I think I am confused.  I don't 
 11  understand why you have the copyright if you say 
 12  that you don't care who uses your material.
 13       A.    Well, there's different standards of 
 14  use.  If someone were to take our magazine and 
 15  simply duplicate it, well, that's obviously very 
 16  bad.  If somebody were to, say, quote something 
 17  from one of our articles, we have no problem with 
 18  that.  We consider that fair use.
 19       Q.    In other words, if they had quoted 
 20  something, but not the whole thing, you consider 
 21  that OK.
 22       A.    Right.
 23       Q.    And when you got the copyright, one of 
 24  the purposes would protect anyone from taking the 
 25  whole thing.

  1                  Goldstein
  2       A.    Yes. 
  3       Q.    Is it your understanding that the 
  4  current court injunction against your posting DeCSS 
  5  violates your right? 
  6             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to it.
  7       A.    I wouldn't say it violates my rights.  I 
  8  say that it's open to contention whether it's right 
  9  or not, but obviously we're following the 
 10  injunction so we respect it.
 11       Q.    Do you believe that the current court 
 12  injunction violates rights that you have --
 13             MR. GARBUS:  I object.
 14       Q.    -- in any way, shape or form?
 15             MR. GARBUS:  Object to the form of the 
 16       question.
 17       Q.    Or do you believe the current court 
 18  injunction is perfect proper and appropriate?  And 
 19  I am asking for your beliefs. 
 20             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 
 21       the question.  If you can't exclude anything 
 22       from any privileged communications you had, 
 23       any conversations with counsel telling you 
 24       what your rights are, so to the extent it 
 25       comes out of conversations with counsel, 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       just say that and I will claim the 
  3       privilege.
  4       A.    I respect the injunction.
  5       Q.    Excuse me?
  6       A.    I respect the injunction.  I don't 
  7  believe the injunction is violating my rights per 
  8  se.  I think it's a fight that we're engaged in.  
  9  And obviously the injunction was filed against us.  
 10  We respect that and we followed it.  So....
 11       Q.    Do you understand that the injunction 
 12  prohibits you and 2600 from posting DeCSS?
 13       A.    And we have done just that.
 14       Q.    Do you think it's appropriate and right 
 15  that the court did that? 
 16             MR. GARBUS:  I object to it to the 
 17       extent that what the judge did is right or 
 18       wrong comes out of conversations you had 
 19       with counsel.
 20             MR. GOLD:  Oh, my gosh.  Martin, I 
 21       object to what you're doing.
 22       A.    I see a difference between what the 
 23  judge said and what the people behind the case are 
 24  saying.  Obviously I don't believe the people 
 25  behind the case are right.  I don't think the judge 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  acted improperly.  I think the judge is doing what 
  3  judges do, and I have every faith in that.
  4       Q.    What do judges do?
  5       A.    Judges make decisions based on the 
  6  evidence given to them, and it's my hope that we'll 
  7  present evidence to prove that we're right in the 
  8  end. 
  9             MR. GARBUS:  Leon, as you know, 
 10       there's a motion to vacate the injunction. 
 11       Q.    I take it you don't believe that the 
 12  injunction is inappropriate.
 13       A.    The injunction in itself.
 14             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 
 15       the question. 
 16       Q.    Do you think you have a right to post 
 17  DeCSS?
 18       A.    Yes, I do. 
 19       Q.    Why?
 20       A.    I consider it --
 21             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 
 22       the question.
 23       A.    I consider it a form of speech.  I 
 24  consider it a form of basically writing about 
 25  technology showing how things work, and I think it 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  is a very -- it is a chilling effect if you start 
  3  punishing people for showing how something works.  
  4  It is one step away from punishing someone from 
  5  talking about it.  And I think as journalists we 
  6  need to stand up to that.
  7             MR. GOLD:  I would like to have this 
  8       marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1.
  9             (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1, piece of paper 
 10       with the letters DeCSS written on it, marked 
 11       for identification, as of this date.)
 12       Q.    I am going show you Exhibit 1, 
 13  Mr. Goldstein.  Give you a chance to look at it.   
 14  It won't take very long.
 15       A.    OK. 
 16       Q.    What does that mean to you?
 17       A.    It means you have written DeCSS on a 
 18  piece of paper.
 19       Q.    But what does it mean?
 20             MR. GARBUS:  Object to the form of the 
 21       question.
 22       A.    What does it mean? 
 23       Q.    Yes.
 24       A.    It's -- it doesn't really mean a whole 
 25  lot to me to be honest.  You have written something 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  on a piece of paper.  But this is not the same 
  3  thing as DeCSS code. 
  4             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 
  5       the question. 
  6       Q.    You say that is not the DeCSS code; is 
  7  that right?
  8       A.    Five letters on a piece of paper?  No, 
  9  sir, it's not. 
 10       Q.    Is that a word? 
 11             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 
 12       the question.
 13       Q.    DeCSS.
 14             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 
 15       the question.  I direct the witness not to 
 16       answer.  DeCSS speaks for itself.  You have 
 17       written five letters on a piece of paper.
 18             MR. GOLD:  You're going to direct the 
 19       witness not to answer?  On what ground? 
 20             MR. GARBUS:  Can you tell me where 
 21       you're doing with this deposition?
 22             MR. GOLD:  No.
 23             MR. GARBUS:  It is now close to 11 
 24       o'clock.  It seems to me what you have done 
 25       in the last half hour is ask questions that 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       have limited relevancy, if any, to this 
  3       lawsuit, his understanding of the law.  
  4             MR. GOLD:  I'm sorry.
  5             MR. GARBUS:  And I appreciate it -- 
  6       don't apologize until I'm through.  I 
  7       appreciate it if you get to the questions 
  8       that I perceive to be at issue in this 
  9       lawsuit. 
 10             I mean, I think it is very cute to 
 11       write DeCSS on a piece of paper and I 
 12       presume you can examine him for half an hour 
 13       on it, but it has nothing to do with the 
 14       issues in this lawsuit.  What his 
 15       understanding is of five letters you have 
 16       written on a blank piece of paper --
 17             MR. GOLD:  I think an objection is OK, 
 18       but you're filibustering.
 19             MR. GARBUS:  Can I finish? 
 20             MR. GOLD:  No.   I think you're 
 21       filibustering.  That's not an objection.  
 22       That's improper. 
 23       Q.    Now you can answer the question.  Is 
 24  that a word, DeCSS?
 25       A.    Not in the English language.  It's five 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  letters.  It stands for something. 
  3       Q.    And I take it it has no meaning to you.
  4       A.    It in that form?  Well, it has meaning 
  5  in that it represents something.  It represents 
  6  what we're talking about today.  Other than that, I 
  7  am not sure if that's the way you're presenting it. 
  8       Q.    Thank you.  Do you believe that when you 
  9  were posting DeCSS you were engaged in an act of 
 10  civil disobedience? 
 11             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.  He has 
 12       already testified he was the media and was 
 13       presenting as part of a story.
 14       A.    When we first posted it we posted it 
 15  as journalists talking about a news story.
 16       Q.    How was the posting accomplished?
 17       A.    The posting of the actual DeCSS or the 
 18  article surrounding it? 
 19       Q.    The posting of DeCSS.  What you call the 
 20  actual DeCSS.
 21       A.    I wasn't the person who actually copied 
 22  it, but I imagine it was taken from one of the 
 23  sites that had it up on the Net.  We verified what 
 24  was in it and put it up on our site.
 25       Q.    By whom?  Who did that?

  1                  Goldstein
  2       A.    Probably our webmaster.
  3       Q.    And who's that?
  4       A.    His on-line name is Macki. 
  5       Q.    And his real name?
  6       A.    I know his first name.  His first name 
  7  is Mike.  Last name begins with the letter S.  
  8  That's really all I know.  I know how to E-mail.  I 
  9  know how to get ahold of him, but I don't know his 
 10  full last name.
 11       Q.    He is not employed by you?
 12       A.    No.
 13       Q.    Did you ask him to post DeCSS on your 
 14  site?
 15       A.    We talked about it and agreed that that 
 16  was the appropriate thing to do.
 17       Q.    So you did ask him to do it?
 18       A.    We conferred.  We agreed together.  I 
 19  didn't direct him to do this.
 20       Q.    Does he have any ownership of your 
 21  stock?
 22       A.    Not as such.  I mean, he has a say in 
 23  the kinds of things that go on there.
 24       Q.    Do you have an ownership of your stock?
 25       A.    Yes. 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       Q.    You own stock in the company that 
  3  controls your stock?
  4       A.    It's a private corporation, yes. 
  5       Q.    Did you approve of what he did posting 
  6  the CSS on your site?
  7       A.    DeCSS.
  8       Q.    DeCSS on your site.
  9       A.    Yes. 
 10       Q.    In the past six months have you been 
 11  engaged in any kind of reverse engineering of 
 12  anything?
 13       A.    I am a journalist.  I am not an 
 14  engineer.
 15       Q.    So the answer is no?
 16       A.    The answer is no.
 17       Q.    In the last six months have you been 
 18  engaged in any cryptographical research?
 19       A.    No.  
 20       Q.    Prior to the court proceedings did you 
 21  talk to any people about DeCSS who were in fact 
 22  engaged or planning to engage in reverse 
 23  engineering?
 24       A.    Not with my knowledge.  I talked to a 

 25  lot of people on the Internet.  People message back 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  and forth and some might be very knowledgeable in 
  3  certain fields.  So it's very hard for me to say 
  4  whether or not I was talking to somebody who was 
  5  doing something like that.
  6       Q.    Since the commencement of this lawsuit 
  7  have you talked to any people who are using DeCSS 
  8  for the purpose of reverse engineering?
  9       A.    To be honest, I have never found anybody 
 10  who has successfully gotten DeCSS to work.
 11       Q.    So the answer to my question is no?
 12       A.    No.
 13       Q.    You haven't talked to any people. 
 14             And where did you get the understanding 
 15  that people can't get DeCSS to work?
 16       A.    I've gotten messages, again on the 
 17  Internet.  I remember back towards the later part 
 18  of last year seeing messages from people who are 
 19  trying to figure it out and it was too complex for 
 20  them. 
 21             I imagine there are some people who have 
 22  gotten it to work and have been able to use DVDs on 
 23  their Linux machines, which is the purpose of it.  
 24  But myself, I have not talked to anybody personally 
 25  who has done that.

  1                  Goldstein
  2       Q.    To your knowledge, has anyone in the 
  3  world currently engaged in reverse engineering 
  4  DeCSS or CSS?
  5       A.    Which? 
  6       Q.    CSS.
  7       A.    I think it's already been done.  I think 
  8  CSS has pretty much been shown to be not very 
  9  secure encryptionwise.
 10       Q.    Do you know of any cryptographical 
 11  research with respect to DeCSS that's been done 
 12  anywhere in the world?
 13       A.    Not specifically, no.  
 14       Q.    How did you come to the understanding 
 15  that the purpose of DeCSS was to view movies on a 
 16  Linux machine?
 17       A.    There's been quite a lot of discussion 
 18  in various forums and at conferences and various 
 19  places like that by people who are extremely 
 20  knowledgeable in the field, from the founders of 
 21  Linux to its users, and it became very clear very 
 22  quickly that this program was simply made so that 
 23  they would have a way of viewing DVDs as well, 
 24  since they were not granted a license to have a DVD 
 25  player on their machines.

  1                  Goldstein
  2       Q.    Do you know if there is a Linux-based 
  3  DVD player that existed?
  4       A.    I had heard there is something being 
  5  developed that was not open source.  It was closed 
  6  source.  But it was something that was being 
  7  developed.
  8       Q.    Why do you say the purpose of DeCSS was 
  9  to allow DVDs to be played in a Linux-based player 
 10  if there is no Linux-based player? 
 11             MR. GARBUS:  Objection as to form.
 12       A.    Because by using DeCSS you would have a 
 13  Linux-based player, which previously did not exist.  
 14  In fact, previously was illegal. 
 15       Q.    Do you mean that in order to play the 
 16  movies you're talking about people are decrypting 
 17  CSS?
 18       A.    The only way to play a movie on a Linux 
 19  machine is to decrypt it so that you can see it on 
 20  a different platform.  The way it had been before, 
 21  you had to buy a particular operating system or a 
 22  particular machine that had already been granted a 
 23  license, which meant that the thousands, millions 
 24  of people with Linux machines were unable to use 
 25  DVDs.  They had already bought the DVDs.  They had 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  already bought the computers.  But they were unable 
  3  to use them. 
  4       Q.    Is that because the people that held the 
  5  copyrights to the movies encrypted DVDs so they 
  6  couldn't be played except on a licensed player?
  7       A.    My understanding is that they encrypted 
  8  them and only gave licenses to organizations 
  9  willing to pay very large fees, and that's 
 10  basically my understanding of it. 
 11       Q.    Once you decrypt the movie, how can you 
 12  play it if there's no player? 
 13             MR. GARBUS:  We're talking now about a 
 14       Linux operating system? 
 15             MR. GOLD:  Yes. 
 16             MR. GARBUS:  Objection to the form of 
 17       the question.
 18             MR. GOLD:  Yes, we are talking about 
 19       Linux.
 20             MR. GARBUS:  You don't understand the 
 21       technology, Mr. Gold.  I object to the form 
 22       of the question.  It doesn't make sense.  
 23             Go ahead, answer it.
 24       A.    Ask it one more time so I'm clear.
 25       Q.    Once you decrypt the movie how can you 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  watch it if there's no player?
  3       A.    My understanding with the way DeCSS 
  4  works, and I could be wrong because I have never 
  5  used it myself, is that by using this particular 
  6  tool you then have a player that will allow you to 
  7  play the film that you've decrypted. 
  8             And if that's not the case then there 
  9  might be another utility out there that does make a 
 10  player that's a software-based player.
 11       Q.    You're not sure.
 12       A.    I am not entirely sure on that, no.  
 13       Q.    When did you first find out as you say 
 14  that the purpose of DeCSS was to view movies on a 
 15  Linux player?
 16       A.    Well, right away we knew that was 
 17  primary purpose. 
 18       Q.    How did you know?
 19       A.    By talking to people who were experts in 
 20  the field of Linux.
 21       Q.    Who did you talk to?
 22       A.    I know there are some people involved in 
 23  the Livid project, L-i-v-i-d, which was a project 
 24  to make a DVD player for Linux which has been going 
 25  on for quite some time.

  1                  Goldstein
  2       Q.    My question was who did you talk to, 
  3  what person did you talk to that gave you --
  4       A.    I don't know specific names, 
  5  unfortunately.  These are people I talk to either 
  6  on line or I met briefly at a conference.
  7       Q.    What is the -- I see.  You have no 
  8  record of the fact that they gave you this 
  9  information.  No written record.  
 10       A.    I have no written record myself, but 
 11  it's been posted in many public forums.
 12       Q.    Did you exchange communications with 
 13  people involved in the Livid project by E-mail?
 14       A.    I may have at some point last year when 
 15  it was first unfolding, yes.
 16       Q.    Do you have those E-mails?
 17       A.    No.  
 18       Q.    You wiped them out of --
 19       A.    I don't save outgoing mail and I am very 
 20  stingy with what I save because I get so much mail.
 21       Q.    Can it be retrieved from your hard 
 22  drive?
 23       A.    No.   It was so long ago. 
 24       Q.    For how long can you retrieve messages 
 25  on your hard drive?

  1                  Goldstein
  2       A.    I have never tried.  I mean, it's a 
  3  Unix-based system.  I think it's very -- it's not 
  4  like the White House.  It is very difficult to 
  5  retrieve something.
  6       Q.    Is it fair to say you actually don't 
  7  know whether or not these messages could be 
  8  retrieved?
  9       A.    Oh, I am pretty positive they can't be 
 10  retrieved.
 11       Q.    When you mean "pretty positive," what 
 12  does that mean?  Not positive or positive?
 13       A.    Positive.
 14       Q.    Positive.
 15       A.    Yes. 
 16       Q.    How did you get to know that it is 
 17  positive that you can't retrieve messages that are 
 18  six months old?
 19       A.    Well, I base that on when I wanted to 
 20  retrieve things in the past and I asked sysadmins.  
 21  I asked them can I get this back and they say no 
 22  way. 
 23             I imagine that probably holds true no 
 24  matter what the contents were.
 25       Q.    And you have no knowledge of anyone on 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  the Livid project that you talked to about DeCSS.
  3       A.    Not off the top of my head.  I mean, 
  4  it's not that large an organization, so I don't 
  5  think it's difficult to figure out who --
  6             MR. GARBUS:  If you leave a space in the 
  7       deposition, Mr. Goldstein, when he returns 
  8       the deposition, will see if he can recall 
  9       any names and will put them in the 
 10       deposition. 
 11             MR. GOLD:  OK. 
 12  TO BE FURNISHED:  ________________________________
 13  __________________________________________________.
 14       Q.    Do you know any people who belong or who 
 15  work on the Livid project whether or not you have 
 16  talked to them? 
 17       A.    Just through a communication and 
 18  possibly meeting them at a conference.
 19       Q.    Do you know their names?
 20       A.    I'd probably remember if I heard them.  
 21  But I don't remember the names off my head.
 22       Q.    What is the Livid project?
 23       A.    As I said, Livid project, my 
 24  understanding is an ongoing project to make a 
 25  DVD player for Linux machines.

  1                  Goldstein
  2       Q.    And they're still at it?
  3       A.    I believe so.
  4       Q.    How do you know?
  5       A.    I've just heard from various public 
  6  discussions.
  7       Q.    Prior to your conversations with your 
  8  attorneys this week, did you believe that you were 
  9  allowed to post DeCSS or link to other sites 
 10  posting DeCSS as long as several people downloaded 
 11  DeCSS to engage in cryptographical research?  
 12             MR. GARBUS:  Can I hear the question 
 13       again.
 14             (A portion of the record was read.)
 15             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 
 16       the question.  It's several questions in 
 17       one.  Can't you just ask the question 
 18       simply?  There are several different parts 
 19       of the question, Mr. Gold.  Don't you see 
 20       that? 
 21             Do you understand the question?  Can 
 22       you answer it?
 23             THE WITNESS:  I will give it my best 
 24       shot.
 25       A.    Basically I think it's not a conditional 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  thing.  When you post something, you post something 
  3  as long as somebody downloads it for a particular 
  4  purpose. 
  5             Our understanding was that it was 
  6  perfectly OK to post this.  Obviously when the 
  7  injunction happened we stopped posting it.  And 
  8  linking is a completely different issue.
  9       Q.    So I take it it was not your 
 10  understanding that you were allowed to post DeCSS 
 11  as long as several people downloaded CSS to use -- 
 12  downloaded DeCSS --
 13             MR. GARBUS:  Object to the form of the 
 14       question.
 15       Q.    -- in order to engage in cryptographical 
 16  research?
 17       A.    I think I answered.  I think I 
 18  answered as best I can.  It's not a yes-no 
 19  question.  You have a conditional phrase in there, 
 20  so --
 21       Q.    Is it your belief that DeCSS can be made 
 22  available to anyone in the United States as long as 
 23  a few people use it for cryptographical research or 
 24  reverse engineering? 
 25             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       the question.  I don't understand it.  It's 
  3       a conditional question.  Can't you rephrase 
  4       the question in an intelligible way? 
  5       Q.    You can answer.
  6       A.    Again, it is information.   We can't put 
  7  conditions on the exchange of information and say, 
  8  you can only read this if you're going to use it in 
  9  a particular way.  We put up information on our 
 10  site and people read it.  That's the relationship 
 11  we have. 
 12       Q.    So your right to post DeCSS doesn't 
 13  derive from the fact that -- it doesn't derive from 
 14  how it is used by the end user; is that right? 
 15             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to it.  
 16       That's not what the witness said.  The 
 17       witness said --
 18             MR. GOLD:  I don't care what the 
 19       witness said.  I am asking a different 
 20       question. 
 21             MR. GARBUS:  If you don't care what 
 22       the witness said, Mr. Gold, then you can't 
 23       say isn't this -- what you just said.  If 
 24       you're not going to listen to the witness, 
 25       then don't listen to the witness.  But you 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       can't phrase questions that way.  I object 
  3       to the form of the question.  And you know 
  4       better than that. 
  5       Q.    Do you believe that the end use of DeCSS 
  6  has nothing to do with the lawfulness of posting 
  7  it? 
  8             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 
  9       the question.  I object to the question on 
 10       the grounds that it calls for a legal 
 11       conclusion.  This witness is not a lawyer.  
 12       Nor should he be asked about questions 
 13       concerning legal conclusions. 
 14             If there's anything that in that 
 15       question that comes as a result of 
 16       conversations that you and I have had as 
 17       counsel, namely with respect to legal 
 18       conclusions, just say it.   If you think you 
 19       can answer the question in some intelligible 
 20       way, then answer it.   
 21             THE WITNESS:  Could you read back the 
 22       question, please.
 23             MR. GARBUS:  Mr. Gold, I don't know 
 24       what you're doing.  These questions are not 
 25       admissible at a trial.  The judge won't let 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       you ask him.  So why ask them here now?   
  3             (A portion of the record was read.)
  4             MR. GARBUS:  If you can't answer the 
  5       question, just say you can't answer the 
  6       question. 
  7       A.    It's a really hard question for me to 
  8  answer.  I don't think they're related, no.   
  9  That's my view as a journalist.  I am not a legal 
 10  expert. 
 11             MR. GOLD:  Mr. Garbus, I am going to 
 12       respectfully request that you cease from 
 13       directing your witness on how to answer a 
 14       question.  If you wanted to do that before 
 15       you came here today, you had ample 
 16       opportunity.  If it continues, I will take 
 17       it to the judge and we'll play the movie.
 18             MR. GARBUS:  Whatever you want to do 
 19       is fine. 
 20             MR. GOLD:  I will have to.  It's 
 21       inappropriate.
 22       Q.    Prior to talking to your lawyer in the 
 23  last two days did you have an understanding of the 
 24  meaning of the word "fair use"?
 25       A.    Yes.

  1                  Goldstein
  2       Q.    Is that an understanding you came to 
  3  through your profession as a journalist? 
  4       A.    Yes. 
  5       Q.    What was that understanding?
  6       A.    That it's legal to use bits of 
  7  copyrighted material for the purpose of describing 
  8  something, showing an example of something.  For 
  9  instance, even a student presenting something to a 
 10  class might play something from a videotape for 
 11  instance.  That's fair use.  You might see 
 12  something on television that shows a scene from a 
 13  particular movie.  That's fair use.  A parody is 
 14  fair use. 
 15       Q.    Was it your understanding before you 
 16  talked to your lawyers in the past two days that 
 17  fair use only related to using bits of copyrighted 
 18  work or pieces of copyrighted work but not the 
 19  whole thing?
 20       A.    That's my understanding.  The whole 
 21  thing isn't exactly fair use. 
 22             MR. GOLD:  I would like to have this 
 23       marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2.
 24             MR. GOLD:  A document which on the 
 25       cover says "2600, The Hacker Quarterly, 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       Volume Seventeen, Number One, Spring 2000." 
  3             (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2, Spring 2000 
  4       issue of 2600, The Hacker Quarterly, 
  5       magazine, marked for identification, as of 
  6       this date.) 
  7       Q.    Can you describe that document, 
  8  Mr. Goldstein?
  9       A.    Yes.  This is the magazine I publish, 
 10  2600, The Hacker Quarterly.  This is the spring 
 11  2000 edition. 
 12       Q.    On page 7 there is what appears to be a 
 13  photograph.
 14       A.    Yes. 
 15       Q.    Is that in fact a photograph?
 16       A.    It's a doctored photograph.  This is -- 
 17  it's parody.  It's basically taken from the World 
 18  Trade Organization demonstrations and you spot MPAA 
 19  on the back of their jackets.  
 20       Q.    So if you know, is it true that the only 
 21  thing in this picture that's not true, not actual, 
 22  are the initials MPAA?
 23       A.    Well, the initials are --
 24       Q.    I mean, that's not a photograph of 
 25  somebody.

  1                  Goldstein
  2       A.    No, as I said, we put MPAA over whatever 
  3  was there before, if there was anything there 
  4  before.  So no, there were not MPAA storm troopers 
  5  in the streets.
  6       Q.    But pictures of these troops or police 
  7  people, that was an actual photo?
  8       A.    That was an actual photograph, yes.  
  9  That was taken in Seattle in November.
 10       Q.    And in what demonstration did you say?
 11       A.    World Trade Organization.
 12       Q.    What was the demonstration about?
 13       A.    That was demonstration against the World 
 14  Trade Organization in Seattle.  November 30th, I 
 15  think.
 16       Q.    In the second paragraph there's some 
 17  discussion about a Mitnick.  I gather that's a 
 18  Mr. Mitnick?  Page 5.
 19       A.    Yes. 
 20       Q.    Who is he?
 21       A.    Kevin Mitnick was a computer hacker who 
 22  had been imprisoned for five years. 
 23       Q.    Do you know what he was convicted of?
 24       A.    In the end he was convicted of basically 
 25  misrepresenting himself on the telephone and having 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  source code that belonged to cellular phone 
  3  companies that was looking at.
  4       Q.    Do you know anything about the charge of 
  5  misrepresenting himself on the telephone?
  6       A.    It's basically calling someone on the 
  7  phone saying that you're an employee of a 
  8  particular company when you're not in order to get 
  9  some bit of information.  That's my understanding 
 10  of it in his particular case. 
 11       Q.    And that's the only crime you know of 
 12  that he was convicted of?
 13       A.    In the end, that's the only crime he was 
 14  charged with, yes.  And that's why we took the case 
 15  up because we thought it was rather unfair that 
 16  someone would be locked away for five years for 
 17  something rather minor. 
 18       Q.    When you say you took the case up, what 
 19  does that mean?
 20       A.    As far as writing about it, as far as 
 21  following it and currently producing a documentary 
 22  on it. 
 23       Q.    Where did 2600 come from?
 24       A.    Do you mean the name? 
 25       Q.    Part of the name of The Hacker 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  Quarterly.
  3       A.    Well, 2600 is a frequency that if you go 
  4  back into history, back into the early 1960s, when 
  5  people first started exploring the phone network, 
  6  the sound of 2600 hertz tones would basically 
  7  disconnect whatever call you were connected to and 
  8  put you in what's known as operator mode, where you 
  9  could basically explore the entire phone network.  
 10  That was back in the day when there was just one 
 11  phone network run by AT&T.
 12       Q.    Could you then make calls without paying 
 13  for them?
 14       A.    That was one thing you could do.  But 
 15  you could also explore and talk to operators in 
 16  various places and just learn how the whole thing 
 17  was pieced together. 
 18             That's where the term "phone freaking" 
 19  was established.  That's where a lot of hackers 
 20  traced their roots to, just exploring one of the 
 21  first major computer systems in existence.
 22       Q.    And you adopted the 2600 as your 
 23  masthead, your banner?
 24       A.    Yes.  Well, the number had some 
 25  significance and it was rather an unusual name, so 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  it appealed to us. 
  3       Q.    Were you ever involved in any activity 
  4  in any way relating to abusing the phone system?
  5       A.    No.  
  6       Q.    Did you ever make phone calls without 
  7  paying for them?
  8       A.    No.  
  9             MR. GARBUS:  Note my objection to the 
 10       question and the previous question. 
 11       Q.    Have you ever been convicted of any 
 12  crime? 
 13             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.
 14       A.    I was -- I had gotten in trouble for 
 15  computer hacking in 1984, which was the first year 
 16  our magazine came out. 
 17             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question.  
 18       I object to the entire line of inquiry.  I 
 19       think I will direct the witness not to 
 20       answer unless the judge rules.
 21             MR. GOLD:  On what ground? 
 22             MR. GARBUS:  I would ask you to go on, 
 23       and if you can get a ruling from the court 
 24       that is favorable to you, then he will 
 25       answer the question.  But I think it is 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       inappropriate. 
  3       Q.    When you used the word "in trouble," 
  4  sir, what did that mean to you? 
  5             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question 
  6       and direct the witness not to answer until 
  7       such time as the court rules. 
  8       Q.    May I see that for a second, sir?
  9       A.    Sure. 
 10       Q.    Thank you.  Turning to page 6 of the 
 11  document, the right-hand column, about in the 
 12  middle of the paragraph, which is the last full 
 13  paragraph on the page, the following words are 
 14  written:  Quote, So under the DMCA it is illegal to 
 15  play your DVD on your computer if your computer 
 16  isn't licensed for it, close quote.
 17             MR. GARBUS:  Excuse me.  I don't see 
 18       where you are.
 19             MR. GOLD:  You don't see the language?
 20             MR. GARBUS:  Oh, I see.  I have it 
 21       now. 
 22       Q.    Is that true?
 23       A.    That's, um --
 24             MR. GARBUS:  I object to it.  It's a 
 25       legal conclusion.

  1                  Goldstein
  2       A.    That's my understanding.  I mean, I 
  3  wrote that piece, so....
  4       Q.    What is that, sir?
  5       A.    I wrote that piece, so that is my 
  6  understanding, yes.
  7       Q.    How did you come to that understanding? 
  8             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to it.  I 
  9       think I will direct the witness not to 
 10       answer.  It is a legal conclusion.  If the 
 11       judge directs him to answer, then he will 
 12       answer the question. 
 13       Q.    The next sentence, states, quote, "It's 
 14  illegal for you to figure out a way to play a 
 15  European DVD on your TV set."   Is that true? 
 16             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to the 
 17       question, direct the witness not to answer.  
 18       Calls for a conclusion of law.  If the judge 
 19       directs a journalist to answer about 
 20       something that he has written, then of 
 21       course he will answer it. 
 22       Q.    The last sentence says, "if you rent a 
 23  DVD" -- I think it says, "And if you rent a DVD 
 24  from your local video store, figuring out a way to 
 25  bypass the commercials in the beginning could land 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  you in court or even prison."  Is that true? 
  3             MR. GARBUS:  I direct the witness not 
  4       to answer.  It calls for a legal conclusion.  
  5       To the extent that it is based on 
  6       conversations with counsel, it comes within 
  7       the privilege.  If the judge decides that 
  8       the privilege doesn't apply or that he 
  9       should answer the question, then he 
 10       certainly will.
 11       Q.    I believe, Mr. Goldstein, that you wrote 
 12  this piece that we're now --
 13       A.    Yes.
 14       Q.    -- making some kind of fair use of?
 15       A.    Yes.  You can make copies of it.   
 16  That's perfectly OK.
 17       Q.    Thank you, sir.
 18       A.    Sure.  Now, if that was a DVD, you might 
 19  have some trouble.
 20       Q.    What's that, sir?
 21       A.    If that was a DVD it might be a 
 22  different story.
 23       Q.    Do you mean if anyone makes a copy of a 
 24  DVD he would violate the law? 
 25             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to the 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       question. 
  3       Q.    Do you believe that, sir? 
  4             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to the 
  5       question.  2600 wouldn't sue.  DVD might 
  6       sue.  MPA might sue.  It is not just a 
  7       question of the law.  I direct the witness 
  8       not to answer.
  9       Q.    At the end of that page, the following 
 10  is contained:  "The world the MPAA and 
 11  megacorporations want us to live in is a living 
 12  hell."   What do you mean by "living hell"?
 13       A.    Well, what we're going through right now 
 14  is kind of a living hell.  I see that happening to 
 15  a lot more people.
 16       Q.    So the only thing you meant by "living 
 17  hell" was that the MPAA would cause suits to be 
 18  brought against people it thought were violating 
 19  the law?
 20       A.    I believe Jack Valenti said they'd file 
 21  a thousand lawsuits a day if necessary. 
 22       Q.    Against people who violate the law?
 23       A.    Against people they feel like filing 
 24  suits against.
 25       Q.    Is that what he said or did you just 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  make that up?
  3       A.    Not the last part, but he did say a 
  4  thousand lawsuits a day.  That was accurate.
  5       Q.    Was he talking about law breakers? 
  6             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to it.
  7       Q.    Did you understand that he was talking 
  8  about law breakers?
  9       A.    I don't really know what he was talking 
 10  about to be honest.  He basically seemed to think 
 11  that lots of people are law breakers without really 
 12  describing how they broke the law.
 13             MR. GARBUS:  Can we take our morning 
 14       break now?  It's 11:30. 
 15             MR. GOLD:  Sure. 
 16             THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  The time is 11:22 
 17       a.m.  We're going off the record. 
 18             (A recess was taken.)
 19             THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  The time is 11:40 
 20       a.m.  We're back on record.
 21             MR. GARBUS:  I am going to withdraw my 
 22       objection to your question about the 1984 
 23       incident.  If you want to pursue it, you can 
 24       pursue it.  I don't think it is appropriate.  
 25       If you want to pursue it, I think you should 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       pursue it.  
  3  BY MR. GOLD: 
  4       Q.    You referred, I believe, to getting in 
  5  some trouble in 1984.
  6       A.    Yes. 
  7       Q.    What was that about?
  8       A.    It involved one of the first cases of 
  9  computer hacking.  Basically there was a system, 
 10  still is a system known as Telenet, where basically 
 11  it was protected with one-letter passwords, the 
 12  letter A.  And a lot of organizations were wide 
 13  open -- Raytheon, Coca-Cola, in fact, even the 
 14  Executive Office of the President. 
 15             And when they finally discovered that 
 16  their system was wide open, I basically came 
 17  forward and explained it to them.  I was indicted, 
 18  but I think I was dealt with fairly.  I paid 
 19  restitution and was on probation.  I never did it 
 20  again.  And from that point I've tried to set a 
 21  good example through the magazine.  So people don't 
 22  make that kind of mistake and so that they are 
 23  dealt with fairly if they do. 
 24       Q.    Did you plead guilty to some charge?
 25       A.    I believe back then it was wire fraud, 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  yeah.  It was -- basically I explained how the 
  3  system worked to them and I think they benefitted 
  4  from that. 
  5             MR. GARBUS:  You should know, 
  6       Mr. Gold, my understanding is the file was 
  7       sealed and that none of this is a matter of 
  8       public record.  I would expect you to treat 
  9       the record appropriately on your own motion. 
 10             MR. GOLD:  Certainly. 
 11             MR. GARBUS:  My understanding also is, 
 12       and I could be wrong, that he was given an 
 13       ACD, which is an adjournment in 
 14       contemplation of dismissal or the equivalent 
 15       of it.  So that the record was sealed and 
 16       charges against him were dismissed. 
 17             Now, I have not seen, because it's not 
 18       public knowledge, what the record is.  So 
 19       again, I would ask you to deal with this 
 20       transcript appropriately.  I didn't want to 
 21       get put into the position, Mr. Goldstein 
 22       didn't want to be put in the position of 
 23       having not to answer any question you  
 24       raised. 
 25             But the fact that the file is sealed 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       it seems to me is of significance. 
  3             MR. GOLD:  Just so that we understand, 
  4       I gather what you're asking me is to show 
  5       this only to other lawyers working on the 
  6       case and including lawyers at MPA working on 
  7       the case.
  8             MR. GARBUS:  No, I am asking you to 
  9       use your judgment as to how you deal with 
 10       this appropriately.
 11             MR. GOLD:  Well, let me tell you what 
 12       I think I am going to do, because we'll send 
 13       the transcript to lawyers for the companies, 
 14       to lawyers for the MPA, and to lawyers here, 
 15       and we'll use it in court. 
 16             Is there anything about that that you 
 17       find inappropriate so I can consider it? 
 18             MR. GARBUS:  I will take it under 
 19       advisement. 
 20             MR. HERNSTADT:  We'll designate it in 
 21       the ordinary course.
 22             MR. GOLD:  Just tell me what you mean 
 23       and what you want and if it doesn't block me 
 24       from what I am doing, that's what I will do, 
 25       is all I am asking.  I have no interest in 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       anything else but this case, and ....
  3  BY MR. GOLD: 
  4       Q.    When you use the word "hacking," what 
  5  does that mean?  As you use it, sir.
  6       A.    My definition of hacking is basically a 
  7  form of asking a lot of questions, experimenting 
  8  with technology, basically twiddling with something 
  9  till you get it to work just right.  Hacking can 
 10  encompass any number of things, things that are in 
 11  your own house, things that you encounter on a 
 12  day-to-day basis. 
 13       Q.    So it doesn't necessarily involve 
 14  breaking into somebody else's computer system?
 15       A.    Not at all.  That's a media definition.  
 16  That's how the media has distorted the word over 
 17  the past decade or so.  But the real world of 
 18  hacking, I think if you go through our pages you 
 19  will see that it encompasses quite a bit more.  Not 
 20  just things like that.
 21       Q.    What would it include, if you can give 
 22  us an example?
 23       A.    For instance, your own computer, there's 
 24  a world of things you can hack in your own 
 25  computer.  Your own telephone, there's ways of 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  figuring out how to dial certain things.  You know, 
  3  only simpleminded people think it's just to get a 
  4  free phone call. 
  5             No, there are things hidden within the 
  6  switch.  For instance, there is a number you dial 
  7  to read back your phone number.  And it's always 
  8  considered a triumph when you figure out what that 
  9  number is. 
 10             To most people hacking is a big waste of 
 11  time because there is no immediate payoff.  That's 
 12  something only people who are hackers understand, 
 13  the thrill of figuring something out. 
 14             I should say also a lot of journalists 
 15  have the same thrill, when they figure something 
 16  out, when they chase down a source or uncover 
 17  something no one else has uncovered.  So I think 
 18  the two are very tightly combined.  The fact that 
 19  I'm both a hacker and a journalist, you know, 
 20  there's a lot to talk about.
 21       Q.    Is the next chapter a regular piece in 
 22  all issues of 2600?
 23       A.    You mean our editorial.
 24       Q.    Is that your editorial?
 25       A.    Yes.  The editorial is always the first 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  thing that appears after the staff box.
  3       Q.    And you write all of the editorials?
  4       A.    Yes, I write the editorial.
  5       Q.    Do I take it as far as you know all 
  6  statements made in your editorials are true?
  7             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to that.
  8       A.    It's my opinion. 
  9       Q.    Based on your information and belief?
 10       A.    Based on my opinion as journalist what I 
 11  say is true.
 12             MR. GARBUS:  When a journalist calls 
 13       Bush a crook or a journalist says that 
 14       Clinton is a felon, it doesn't necessarily 
 15       mean he has been adjudicated a crook or 
 16       adjudicated a felon. 
 17             MR. GOLD:  That was very interesting, 
 18       Mr. Gorbus.
 19             MR. GARBUS:  The name is Garbus.  You 
 20       said Gorbus.  Garbus. 
 21             MR. GOLD:  I said what?  But if I can, 
 22       Mr. Garbus, may I just on this record ask 
 23       questions to your witness and have him 
 24       answer it and have you withhold all of your 
 25       learning about whatever it is?

  1                  Goldstein
  2       Q.    Is it your belief that journalists have 
  3  any special exemptions from the law that applies to 
  4  everyone else?
  5       A.    No.  
  6       Q.    Can I see that?
  7       A.    Sure. 
  8       Q.    Thank you, sir.  Reading a sentence at 
  9  page 6, right-hand side, it's in the second full 
 10  paragraph.  The second sentence says, referring 
 11  to -- well, the paragraph begins, "The MPAA is 
 12  coming at us using a very scary piece of law that 
 13  civil libertarians have been wanting to challenge 
 14  since its inception." 
 15             Do you see that? 
 16       A.    Yes. 
 17       Q.    What is it that you mean when you say 
 18  civil libertarians have been wanting to challenge?  
 19  What is it they have been wanting to challenge?
 20             MR. GARBUS:  I object.  It says what 
 21       it says.  He is not an interpreter.  He 
 22       wrote it. 
 23             Go ahead.  Answer the question.
 24       A.    Basically it's the Digital Millennium 
 25  Copyright Act that people such as civil 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  libertarians in the Electronic Frontier Foundation 
  3  as well as the ACLU have been wanting to challenge 
  4  and I believe now they are challenging it because -- 
  5  I am not a lawyer, but as a journalist I see 
  6  problems with the way it's written and with 
  7  basically ways it can be abused. 
  8       Q.    What are the problems that you see?
  9       A.    Well, for instance, this whole thing 
 10  here is based on an interpretation of the DMCA, 
 11  which I don't think was the intention of the people 
 12  who wrote the DMCA.
 13       Q.    Which part of it?
 14       A.    Basically that would make someone 
 15  subject to lawsuits if they figure out how 
 16  something works.  You know, it seems to me to be 
 17  something that's a pretty ingrained part of our 
 18  society where you're allowed to talk about things, 
 19  figure things out, spread information.  We know 
 20  theft is wrong.  We know taking something that 
 21  doesn't belong to you is wrong or misrepresenting 
 22  yourself is wrong. 
 23             But that's not what this is about.  This 
 24  is about figuring out how technology works and 
 25  being told that that's wrong, and that's where I 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  have a problem with it.  But again, I have to 
  3  stress, I am not a lawyer.  I am speaking as a 
  4  journalist.  That's my opinion on it.
  5       Q.    Are you involved in figuring out what 
  6  DeCSS means?
  7       A.    Well, in addition to not being a lawyer, 
  8  I am also not an engineer. 
  9             MR. GARBUS:  Object to the form of the 
 10       question.
 11       A.    I know many people who are engineers and 
 12  I respect what they do, and I believe I defend what 
 13  they do in my pages.
 14       Q.    Who is it by name, if you can, if you 
 15  know who is trying to figure out what DeCSS means?
 16       A.    Do you mean who is trying to --
 17             MR. GARBUS:  I object to form of the 
 18       question.  I also object to all these 
 19       questions that call for his legal 
 20       conclusion.  The witness is stating his 
 21       opinion as a journalist and not his position 
 22       in the lawsuit.
 23             MR. GOLD:  Oh, I thought you said 
 24       physician. 
 25       A.    Do you mean who is trying to figure 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  out CSS?  Because DeCSS is --
  3       Q.    Who is trying to figure out CSS?  Thank 
  4  you.  You're right.
  5       A.    A lot of people.  I mean, like I 
  6  mentioned the people in the Linux world.  People 
  7  in -- I believe in the Livid project as well, 
  8  although they were basically trying to create a 
  9  Linux player.  A lot of people have gotten very 
 10  interested in how encryption works over the years.  
 11             Encryption is a very important thing.  
 12  It's our key to privacy.  It's traditional in the 
 13  hacker world when encryption goes back, you tell 
 14  people about it.  Because that way the next bit of 
 15  encryption is a lot more secure. 
 16             I think also what you're seeing here, a 
 17  lot of people think it would be wrong not to tell 
 18  people when encryption doesn't work, as is the case 
 19  with CSS.
 20       Q.    In the last answer that you gave, when 
 21  you used the word, quote, a lot of people, what did 
 22  you mean?
 23       A.    A lot of people in the community, in the 
 24  Linux community.  People on public forums such as 
 25  Slash Dot.  Basically people on the Net who know 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  what they are talking about.  People who run 
  3  businesses, people who are engineers, scientists, 
  4  you name it.
  5       Q.    Do you know how many?
  6       A.    Thousands.
  7       Q.    How do you know that?
  8       A.    I see The Post.  You know, we -- we talk 
  9  to these people at meetings, at conferences.  It's 
 10  a lot of people.  And also a lot of people who 
 11  don't have knowledge that understand the 
 12  journalistic implications here. 
 13             So it's really helped us reach out to a 
 14  lot of people.
 15       Q.    In the second sentence of the same 
 16  paragraph you wrote the following:  "It's called 
 17  the Digital Millennium Copyright Act and it 
 18  basically makes it illegal to reverse engineer 
 19  technology." 
 20             Is that your understanding?
 21       A.    That's my understanding based on this 
 22  lawsuit.
 23       Q.    You think that's what this lawsuit is 
 24  about?
 25       A.    It appears that way to me.  Because 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  DeCSS was written for reverse engineering purposes.  
  3  So if that's found to be illegal then under the 
  4  DMCA.
  5       Q.    The next sentence says, "this means 
  6  you're not allowed to take things apart and figure 
  7  out how they work if the corporate entities 
  8  involved don't want you to."
  9             Is that true?
 10       A.    That's based on my previous thought, 
 11  that if that is in fact proven to be the case, then 
 12  yes, that's how it will be decided.
 13       Q.    And that's what this lawsuit is about as 
 14  far as you know?
 15       A.    That's what it looks like to me, yes.
 16       Q.    Are there monthly 2600 meetings?
 17       A.    Yes.  We meet on the first Friday of 
 18  every month in cities.  In fact, if you look on 
 19  page 58, it's a list of all the cities we have 
 20  meetings in around the world. 
 21       Q.    When say "we," who are you talking 
 22  about?
 23       A.    2600, the magazine, a very loosely based 
 24  group of people that have similar ideologies on 
 25  things. 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       Q.    These meetings are held where?
  3       A.    Various public gathering places.  For 
  4  instance, in New York, in the lobby of Citicorp. 
  5       Q.    Who comes to them?  Subscribers to 2600?
  6       A.    Everyone is welcome.  Basically 
  7  subscribers, passersby, businessmen, kids, 
  8  governmental agents.  You name it.  We get all 
  9  kinds of people.
 10       Q.    Are any minutes taken of these meetings?
 11       A.    No, perhaps "meeting" is the wrong word 
 12  in this context.  "Gathering" is probably a better 
 13  word for your understanding. 
 14             There is no agenda.  There is no one 
 15  person speaking to everybody.  It is kind of -- we 
 16  think of it as kind of similar to what the Internet 
 17  world is like where everybody has an equal voice, 
 18  you talk to whoever you want to talk to.  If you 
 19  want to be anonymous, you be anonymous. 
 20             But basically, we respect each other.  
 21  We don't break any laws.   We basically exchange 
 22  information, talk, learn about things.  We have 
 23  been having meetings since 1987.
 24       Q.    Would it be correct to say that 
 25  everybody comes to one place and sort of hangs?  Is 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  that what you mean?
  3       A.    Pretty much, yeah.
  4       Q.    No speeches.
  5       A.    No.  Not that I know of, anyway.
  6       Q.    What reverse engineering purposes was 
  7  DeCSS written for?
  8       A.    By reverse engineering CSS it became 
  9  possible to make DVDs playable on other operating 
 10  systems besides Microsoft, McIntosh, both for 
 11  operating systems like Linux and future operating 
 12  systems that have not yet been written and may not 
 13  have ever been written.  Because if your operating 
 14  system can't do something basic like play a DVD, 
 15  it's not going to be very popular. 
 16       Q.    How was CSS cracked?
 17       A.    Again, I am not an engineer.  My 
 18  understanding is that one of the companies that was 
 19  licensed was -- hadn't encrypted their copy of CSS, 
 20  which made it possible to reverse engineer it based 
 21  on that.  So it was basically their 
 22  irresponsibility that led to this. 
 23       Q.    So is it true the fact that it was 
 24  cracked didn't relate to how strong or weak it was?
 25       A.    It still had to be figured out after 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  that.  It was -- it probably made it easier the 
  3  fact that they didn't encrypt their copy of it. 
  4             But there's -- our basic view is that 
  5  any form of encryption will be eventually cracked 
  6  and you have to live your life realizing that and 
  7  always be prepared to improve your encryption.
  8       Q.    Is that why you say that CSS was a weak 
  9  system? 
 10             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.  That's not 
 11       what he said. 
 12       A.    That's not --
 13       Q.    I asked you a question.
 14       A.    That's not why I say that it's -- I 
 15  believe CSS was weak based on what I was told by 
 16  engineers.  But I think it would have been -- it 
 17  would have been cracked whether or not that company 
 18  had an unencrypted copy or not.
 19       Q.    It would have been cracked sooner or 
 20  later.
 21       A.    Sooner or later, yes, as any encryption 
 22  will be.
 23       Q.    How long had CSS existed before one of 
 24  its users didn't encrypt a DVD with it?
 25             MR. GARBUS:  Object to the form of the 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       question.  He already testified in '97.  But 
  3       your question is a bad question.  With all 
  4       due respect, Mr. Gold, I don't think you 
  5       understand the technology.
  6             MR. GOLD:  Who cares what you think?  
  7       Don't be impolite.  I find it very 
  8       offensive. 
  9             I'll take a test with you sometime 
 10       after the case is over.  Is that the sort of 
 11       competition you have in mind? 
 12             MR. GARBUS:  Go ahead.
 13             THE WITNESS:  Maybe you can read back 
 14       the question.  I got distracted.
 15             (A portion of the record was read.)
 16       A.    CSS existed ever since DVDs were 
 17  released, to my understanding.
 18       Q.    Approximately how long?
 19       A.    I would say DVDs were probably released 
 20  I think probably around '95/'96.  Again, I am not 
 21  entirely certain about this.  But -- and also, I'm 
 22  presuming that the company -- I believe its name is 
 23  Xing, X-i-n-g, hadn't been encrypting all along, so 
 24  that may or may not be true, but that's my 
 25  understanding.

  1                  Goldstein
  2       Q.    So CSS was out there for four to five 
  3  years before it was cracked?
  4       A.    It may have been.  Again, this is not 
  5  something that I am an expert in.  They may have 
  6  been a fairly new company that had just started 
  7  using it and maybe they were only doing it for six 
  8  months.  I don't know the facts in this.
  9       Q.    Is the fact that CSS was being used for 
 10  four to five years and then it was cracked in the 
 11  way that you've described, a reason why you say 
 12  that CSS is weak or was weak? 
 13             MR. GARBUS:  I object to it.  That's 
 14       not what he said. 
 15             MR. GOLD:  That's why I asked him is 
 16       that true.
 17             MR. GARBUS:  You're misstating the 
 18       witness's testimony.
 19             MR. GOLD:  Would you read the question 
 20       back to the witness. 
 21             (A portion of the record was read.)
 22       A.    I am not certain it was being used 
 23  that long.  And I am also not certain how long it 
 24  existed in an insecure state so that it could be 
 25  cracked quicker.  I also don't know how long people 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  were actively trying to do this. 
  3             While DVDs were released several years 
  4  ago, DVDs on computers are a fairly new phenomenon.  
  5  So I don't think very many people in the Linux 
  6  community would be trying four years ago to crack 
  7  this.  I think once they set their minds to the, it 
  8  wasn't very difficult. 
  9       Q.    But they didn't do it without someone 
 10  failing to encrypt.
 11       A.    That helped.  I don't think it would 
 12  have prevented things in the end.
 13       Q.    What do you mean by, quote, in the end?
 14       A.    I think it would have been -- one thing, 
 15  the encryption was developed in a closed 
 16  environment.  If you want good encryption you 
 17  develop it in an open environment so people can 
 18  test it before it actually goes on the market. 
 19             CSS was developed so that nobody really 
 20  knew the equation, and thus they didn't have a 
 21  chance to really test it amongst the people who 
 22  would figure it out.  So I think that was a big 
 23  disadvantage that they had, and that's something 
 24  the open source community has always supported is 
 25  openly developing these things.  So ironically they 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  would have had a more secure encryption standard 
  3  had they consulted with these people.
  4             MR. HERNSTADT:  Off the record. 
  5             (Discussion off the record.)
  6             MR. GOLD:  I would like to have this 
  7       marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 3.
  8             (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 3, document 
  9       headed "2600/News Archive, Page 1 of 2," 
 10       marked for identification, as of this date.)
 11       Q.    Is this a news story you wrote and put 
 12  on the 2600 web site?
 13       A.    Just trying to determine if this is one 
 14  of the ones I wrote.  I definitely approved it and 
 15  put it on the 2600 web site.
 16       Q.    Well, take your time and read it and see 
 17  if you wrote it.  
 18             MR. GOLD:  I don't think it's 
 19       appropriate to talk to the witness, 
 20       Mr. Garbus, in between a question and an 
 21       answer.  
 22       A.    I believe this was one of Macki's.  It's 
 23  based on the phraseology.
 24       Q.    Who is Macki?
 25       A.    Macki is our webmaster.  But I read this 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  and approved it.
  3       Q.    Did you believe it true when you read 
  4  it?
  5       A.    I believed it true when I read it, yes.  
  6  There are a couple of technical issues here that 
  7  have since been proven to be inaccurate.  I think 
  8  that goes to show that even we didn't have a 
  9  complete understanding of the technology at the 
 10  time.
 11       Q.    What in this article do you now believe 
 12  was incorrect?
 13       A.    There is one part here, I think it's the 
 14  third paragraph down, under the date, where it says 
 15  that this facilitated the copying of DVDs. 
 16             Again, it's the nature of the Net, when 
 17  something is released, that people don't always 
 18  have the complete facts.  And when we researched 
 19  this more afterwards, and you will find this in 
 20  later news articles, we realized that it was not 
 21  about copying DVDs.  We were kind of taken in at 
 22  the beginning too.  It's not about that at all.
 23       Q.    What sentence were you reading from?
 24       A.    I am reading the first sentence in the 
 25  third paragraph.

  1                  Goldstein
  2       Q.    "As a result they were able to create 
  3  DeCSS --
  4       A.    Yes. 
  5       Q.    "-- a free DVD decoder, that not only 
  6  facilitated the creation of previously unavailable 
  7  open source DVD players for Linux -- also allowed 
  8  people to copies DVDs." 
  9             Are you now saying that any part of that 
 10  sentence is incorrect?
 11       A.    The last part of that sentence is 
 12  incorrect, because as we --
 13       Q.    Which part?  Do you mean the "also 
 14  allowed people to copy"?
 15       A.    Yes.
 16       Q.    Is it a fact that the free DVD decoder 
 17  that you talked about at the beginning of the 
 18  paragraph in fact did allow people to copy DVDs?
 19       A.    No, the fact is that DVDs have always 
 20  been able to be copied.  The only thing that DeCSS 
 21  does is allow them to be played on a different 
 22  platform. 
 23       Q.    And it's your testimony that DeCSS does 
 24  not decrypt?
 25       A.    DeCSS does decrypt.  It does not make it 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  any easier to copy.  It allows you to be able to 
  3  view it on the platform of your choice.
  4       Q.    When you decrypt DVD is a copy made on 
  5  your hard drive?
  6       A.    I have never used the program.
  7       Q.    So you don't know.
  8       A.    I don't know if a copy is made on your 
  9  computer.  I don't know anybody with the size of a 
 10  computer that would be able to hold an entire DVD.  
 11  It's an incredible --
 12       Q.    So what you're saying is you don't know 
 13  whether or not a copy of the DVD is made when you 
 14  decrypt it on your hard drive.
 15       A.    I don't know for sure.  I think it is 
 16  irrelevant because --
 17       Q.    Before we get to the irrelevant part, 
 18  how can you say that no copies are made unless you 
 19  know that DeCSS does not put a copy on your hard 
 20  drive when you decrypt it? 
 21             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 
 22       the question.  You're misstating the 
 23       witness's testimony.  You are not 
 24       understanding the technology.  I will allow 
 25       the witness to answer the question if he 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       can.
  3       A.    I will try to explain this.  Basically 
  4  copying of DVDs has been going on since virtually 
  5  day one.  When you copy a DVD, you're copying 
  6  something that's encrypted, and as long as you have 
  7  a player, the player doesn't care if it's a copy or 
  8  if it's the original. 
  9             Whether or not you copy something that 
 10  is unencrypted on to your hard drive or encrypted, 
 11  it doesn't make any difference.  If DeCSS allowed 
 12  you to copy the unencrypted file on to your hard 
 13  drive, it's no different than copying the encrypted 
 14  file on to your hard drive, because what CSS did 
 15  was decrypt that.  All you needed was a valid 
 16  player and that would allow you to view an 
 17  encrypted file. 
 18             So again, I am not -- I have never used 
 19  it.  I don't know anybody who has used it.  I don't 
 20  know anybody who would have the hard drive space to 
 21  hold an entire DVD.  But even if it was possible, 
 22  and I stress "if," it wouldn't make a difference 
 23  because you can still play an encrypted DVD using a 
 24  valid CSS player as has been done for years.
 25       Q.    But you've got to first decrypt the DVD.

  1                  Goldstein
  2       A.    CSS decrypts the DVD.
  3       Q.    Do you believe that that's true?
  4       A.    Yes, that's the purpose of it.  It's in 
  5  every DVD player, whether it's on an operating 
  6  system, whether it's a stand alone unit, the copy 
  7  of CSS that's in there is what decrypts the DVD. 
  8             And that's why I say that if you make a 
  9  bit by bit copy of an illegal DVD like, say, from 
 10  Asia or something like that, as has been done for 
 11  years, it's not going to know the difference.  It 
 12  will see the encryption and decrypt it whether it's 
 13  a copy or the original. 
 14             And that's why I say it's irrelevant 
 15  whether or not -- whether or not you have an 
 16  unencrypted copy on your hard drive, because you 
 17  can still just as easily, even easier in fact, 
 18  decrypt an encrypted copy. 
 19       Q.    So then I take it you don't know one way 
 20  or the other whether when you decrypt a DVD a copy 
 21  is put on the hard drive. 
 22       A.    I don't know since I have never done it. 
 23       Q.    Now, at the end of that same paragraph 
 24  there's a reference to, quote, antiquated 
 25  encryption export laws, close quote.

  1                  Goldstein
  2             What does that mean?
  3       A.    I believe that refers to the fact that 
  4  there are strict limitations on encryption that we 
  5  export from this country, and because DVDs are 
  6  exported overseas, an artificially weak encryption 
  7  was used.
  8       Q.    Because of this law?
  9       A.    Because of a law.  I am not sure which 
 10  law it is, that considers encryption an armament 
 11  and basically forced them to encrypt in a rather 
 12  weak state.  Something I don't think anybody who 
 13  knew what they were doing would be happy with.  And 
 14  that of course led to it being cracked a lot 
 15  earlier.
 16       Q.    On the same document, sir, the last 
 17  sentence on page 1, begins, quote, That is why we 
 18  feel it's necessary to preserve this information, 
 19  period.  We do feel sympathy for the DVD industry 
 20  now that their encryption has been cracked.  
 21  Perhaps they will learn from this, close quote.
 22             What learning did you have in mind?
 23       A.    Well, it was our hope that they would go 
 24  on and come up with a better way of encrypting DVDs 
 25  and learn from the mistakes they made and not 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  continue to go after people.  And though I should 
  3  stress that this article is before any papers were 
  4  filed against us.  Obviously they didn't follow 
  5  that. 
  6       Q.    So do you feel or do you believe that  
  7  part of the use of DeCSS is to teach the movie 
  8  companies that they have got to make tougher 
  9  protective devices around their copyrighted work? 
 10             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 
 11       the question.
 12       A.    I don't think anyone went out and said 
 13  let's teach them a lesson.  I think basically this 
 14  is something that happened in the natural course of 
 15  things, and I think it's an opportunity to learn 
 16  that's being wasted.
 17       Q.    Is the export law you talked about in 
 18  the preceding paragraph still in effect?
 19             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to....
 20       A.    Again, I didn't write this article and I 
 21  am not an expert on law, but I do recall hearing 
 22  sometime in the recent past that Clinton relaxed 
 23  some export regulations.
 24       Q.    And that may or may not be one of them.
 25       A.    It might be. 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       Q.    I see. 
  3             Do you consider yourself a hacker?
  4       A.    Yes. 
  5       Q.    Did you or any other hacker you know --
  6             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question.  
  7       The way he defines hacker.
  8       A.    The way I define hacker obviously.
  9             MR. GARBUS:  In other words, the way 
 10       he's defined hacker he considers himself a 
 11       hacker.
 12             MR. GOLD:  Which shows that you were 
 13       listening.
 14       Q.    Did you or any other hacker contact the 
 15  movie industry or Matsushita for the DVD CCA to 
 16  discuss the findings of the DeCSS creators?
 17             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 
 18       the question. 
 19       Q.    The question was did you or any other 
 20  hacker you know of contact the movie industry or 
 21  Matsushita or the DVD CCA to discuss the findings 
 22  of the DeCSS creators?
 23             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 
 24       the question.  If the witness can answer I 
 25       will let him answer.

  1                  Goldstein
  2       A.    Back when this happened, which was early 
  3  November of 1999, I had never even heard of the DVD 
  4  CCA, so contacting them wouldn't have even come to 
  5  mind. 
  6             We were reporting this as journalists.   
  7  We were reporting facts.  The facts were this was -- 
  8  this happened, this was cracked.  And that's what 
  9  we printed on our pages, that it was cracked. 
 10       Q.    But if a purpose of the cracking was to 
 11  teach them that they had to make a stronger 
 12  protective mechanism to protect their copyrighted 
 13  work, why wouldn't you or someone else involved 
 14  with DeCSS call them and tell them that?
 15       A.    I imagine they were contacted.
 16             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to the form 
 17       of the question.  The New York Times printed 
 18       it.  The San Jose Mercury News printed it.  
 19       To my knowledge no newspaper reported it.   
 20       That's not his function.  Object to the form 
 21       of the question. 
 22             MR. GOLD:  Read the question and let 
 23       the witness answer it. 
 24             (A portion of the record was read.)
 25       A.    I believe I said I mentioned they were 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  contacted at the time. 
  3       Q.    By whom?
  4       A.    By, well, at this point it was pretty 
  5  widely reported throughout the Internet.  So for 
  6  them not to know about it I think would be very 
  7  unusual. 
  8             Again, we were reporting something that 
  9  happened.  It wasn't our place to go around and 
 10  make sure that everybody knew about it.  It was a 
 11  fact.  We were reporting it.  We weren't involved 
 12  at that point.  It was just something interesting 
 13  that we were following. 
 14       Q.    At the beginning of the deposition or 
 15  maybe before it started I asked you which name that 
 16  you would be comfortable that I used, and I think 
 17  you told me Emmanuel Goldstein.
 18       A.    As you said, either name is fine.  
 19  Emmanuel is the name I am known by by most people.
 20       Q.    What is your legal name? 
 21       A.    Eric Corley is what I was born with. 
 22       Q.    And you never officially changed it. 
 23       A.    No, that's still my legal name.
 24             MR. GOLD:  I gather there is no 
 25       objection here with respect to the fact that 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       he wasn't sworn as Mr. Corley.  He was sworn 
  3       as Mr. Goldstein.
  4             MR. GARBUS:  That's fine.  
  5       Q.    Were you raised in New York?
  6       A.    Yes.
  7       Q.    Which high school did you go to?
  8       A.    Ward Melville High School in East 
  9  Setauket, New York.
 10       Q.    Did you attend college?
 11       A.    Yes, State University of New York at 
 12  Stony Brook.
 13       Q.    What did you major in?
 14       A.    I was an English major.
 15       Q.    Did you attend school after you 
 16  graduated?
 17       A.    No, I did not.
 18       Q.    Did you graduate?
 19       A.    Yes. 
 20       Q.    Did there come a time you began working?
 21       A.    Yes, I worked in numerous capacities for 
 22  newspapers and....
 23       Q.    Which newspapers, and to the best you 
 24  can, what dates?
 25       A.    Well, I worked for a newspaper on campus 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  known as the Stony Brook Press both as an unpaid 
  3  writer and a paid typesetter, and then I continued 
  4  working as a typesetter for a local community paper 
  5  known as the Village Times.  And that's when I 
  6  began publishing my own publication as well. 
  7             And the rest is pretty much history. 
  8       Q.    Do you receive remuneration from 2600?
  9       A.    Yes, that's my full-time job now.
 10       Q.    Is that your sole source of 
 11  remuneration?
 12       A.    Right now, yes. 
 13       Q.    Is it correct that the Village Times and 
 14  then your own publication are the two jobs you had 
 15  since graduating?
 16       A.    Going back a long ways, so -- I believe 
 17  so.  I believe that's where I was working right 
 18  after graduation.  I mean, I had part-time jobs 
 19  before then, but as far as I know, that's -- yeah, 
 20  that's what I had afterwards. 
 21       Q.    And your home address is what?
 22       A.    7 Strongs Lane.  That's S-t-r-o-n-g-s.  
 23  Also Setauket. 
 24       Q.    And I gather your business address is in 
 25  the magazine somewhere?

  1                  Goldstein
  2       A.    Yes.
  3       Q.    In this 2600 Hack Reporter?
  4       A.    Yes, on page 3, I think.
  5       Q.    When was 2600 Enterprises Inc. 
  6  incorporated?
  7       A.    To the best of my recollection, in 1984.  
  8  I don't have the specific date.
  9       Q.    And it was incorporated in New York?
 10       A.    In New York, yes.
 11       Q.    Who are its directors at present?
 12       A.    I am the sole provider. 
 13       Q.    There is no board of directors?
 14       A.    No, there is none. 
 15       Q.    Are you the only officer?
 16       A.    Yes. 
 17       Q.    Does 2600 Enterprises Inc. have any 
 18  employees?
 19       A.    We have an office, an office person who 
 20  enters subscriptions.  And anything else is 
 21  strictly on a per job basis such as if we hire an 
 22  artist to design a T-shirt, if we pay a printer to 
 23  print the magazine. 
 24       Q.    Have you had the same printer for 
 25  several years?

  1                  Goldstein
  2       A.    Yes. 
  3       Q.    Who is that?
  4       A.    Portside Graphics in Port Jefferson, 
  5  New York. 
  6       Q.    What is the name of your office person?
  7       A.    Her name is Mary, last name Nixdorf, 
  8  N-i-x-d-o-r-f. 
  9       Q.    Does 2600 have any function other than  
 10  issuing 2600, The Hacker Quarterly?
 11       A.    We publish a magazine.  That's what we 
 12  do.  Things happen along the way, such as having 
 13  2600 meetings, but the magazine is really what we 
 14  do. 
 15             Even the web site is something that just 
 16  evolved.  As a result, we make no money off the web 
 17  site.  It's just a project that a bunch of people 
 18  engage in because they want to become involved in 
 19  that part of technology. 
 20       Q.    Are there other web sites around the 
 21  country that are affiliated with you?
 22       A.    The only web site affiliated with us is 
 23  our web site and one for the upcoming conference 
 24  known as  It is on the same machine.  So 
 25  it's really the same thing. 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       Q.    Is The Hacker Quarterly put in its 
  3  entirety on your web site?
  4       A.    No.  The web site is a supplement of the 
  5  magazine.  It's not a duplication of the magazine. 
  6       Q.    Each quarter do you put selected 
  7  portions of The Hacker Quarterly on your web site?
  8       A.    I would like to, but unfortunately we 
  9  don't have the staff to sit around scanning and 
 10  posting.  So right now, no.  We would like to in 
 11  the future.
 12       Q.    So is it rare that you ever put anything 
 13  that's in The Hacker Quarterly on your web site? 
 14             MR. GARBUS:  Object to the use of the 
 15       word "rare."
 16       A.    I don't think we ever duplicate anything 
 17  other than the covers on the web site.  Not to my 
 18  recollection. 
 19       Q.    Except in this lawsuit, have you or 2600 
 20  ever been accused of violating anyone's rights in 
 21  connection with a hack or in connection with the 
 22  material that you published?  Other than this 1984 
 23  thing that you testified. 
 24       A.    Do you mean have we gotten letters 
 25  saying that -- threatening letters from lawyers or 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  have we actually been brought up on charges? 
  3       Q.    Have you actually been brought up on 
  4  charges?
  5       A.    No.
  6       Q.    Have you gotten threatening letters from 
  7  lawyers?
  8       A.    We have gotten a few on occasion.
  9       Q.    How did you get them?
 10       A.    They were sent to us in the mail.
 11       Q.    Do they exist now?
 12       A.    I am not sure what you mean, do they 
 13  exist now? 
 14       Q.    Do the letters exist now?
 15       A.    They might be filed someplace.  I don't 
 16  think I could ever find them.  We usually print 
 17  them.  So you can find them in the magazine.  But 
 18  nothing up until this point has ever gotten past 
 19  the first step of a nasty letter being sent. 
 20       Q.    How many issues of this magazine have 
 21  been published?
 22       A.    Well, we have been coming out for I 
 23  guess eighteen years -- well, no.  This is Volume 
 24  17.  So seventeen years.  So --
 25       Q.    Seventeen times four would be the 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  answer?
  3       A.    We have been quarterly since 1988.  
  4  Before then we were monthly.  So you'll need a 
  5  calculator. 
  6       Q.    And is it your testimony that you 
  7  published all these threatening letters from 
  8  lawyers in one of these issues?
  9       A.    If we got a letter that was -- we 
 10  thought was particularly unjust, yes, it's been our 
 11  policy to show people the kinds of threats that are 
 12  being made against us.
 13  RQ         MR. GOLD:  I am going to ask for copies 
 14       of all back issues of 2600 and any of the 
 15       lawyer letters that Mr. Goldstein might have 
 16       around his office or in his files.
 17             MR. GARBUS:  I will see what we have. 
 18             MR. HERNSTADT:  Can I just clarify?  
 19       Do you want all back issues that have lawyer 
 20       letters published? 
 21             MR. GOLD:  No.  
 22             MR. GARBUS:  He wants all back issues 
 23       and any letters that we have. 
 24             Is that right, Mr. Gold? 
 25             MR. GOLD:  That's right. 

  1                  Goldstein
  2             MR. HERNSTADT:  We'll take it under 
  3       advisement.
  4             MR. GOLD:  Can I have this marked as 
  5       Exhibit 4.
  6             (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 4, copy of 
  7       plaintiffs' first request for production of 
  8       documents, marked for identification, as of 
  9       this date.)
 10             MR. GOLD:  You can take a minute to 
 11       look through that.  I guess we'll change the 
 12       tape while he is looking. 
 13             MR. GARBUS:  Mr. Gold, I don't know 
 14       your schedule.  As I said, we would be 
 15       prepared to work through lunch.  Because I 
 16       know you want to finish the deposition.   We 
 17       would also be prepared working till 5.  
 18       Again, subject to your convenience.  Or even 
 19       work later in the evening to try and give 
 20       you as much as you can get.
 21             MR. GOLD:  As you know, we have 
 22       advised you that the deposition would be 
 23       today and tomorrow.  I think we'll finish 
 24       tomorrow.  I doubt we'll finish today and I 
 25       do feel that the judge having called a 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       conference and been kind enough to put it at 
  3       the end of the day that I should attend it, 
  4       since I have been involved in writing a few 
  5       letters to him.  And I think the judge might 
  6       be interested in talking about one or more 
  7       of them.  I think it would be improper for 
  8       me not to be there.
  9             MR. GARBUS:  Do you want to have 
 10       somebody else take over the deposition?
 11             MR. GOLD:  No, I will stick with what 
 12       I noticed for today and tomorrow and trust 
 13       that I'll finish tomorrow. 
 14             THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  The time is 12:28 
 15       p.m.  This completes tape number 1 of the 
 16       videotape deposition of Mr. Emmanuel 
 17       Goldstein. 
 18             (A recess was taken.)
 19             THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  The 12:34 p.m.  
 20       This begins tape number 2 of the videotape 
 21       deposition of Mr. Emmanuel Goldstein.
 22             (Mr. Hernstadt not present.) 
 23  BY MR. GOLD: 
 24       Q.    Mr. Goldstein, have you seen the 
 25  document just put before you before today?

  1                  Goldstein
  2       A.    Yes, I have.
  3       Q.    When was that?
  4       A.    I believe it was two weeks ago.
  5       Q.    Did you understand at that time two 
  6  weeks ago that it called for the production of 
  7  documents?
  8       A.    Yes.
  9       Q.    Did you make any search for the 
 10  documents requested?
 11       A.    Oh, yes. 
 12       Q.    Tell us everything you did to search for 
 13  the documents requested.
 14       A.    Well, I searched through a pile of 
 15  papers in the attic and tried to find as much as I 
 16  could, contacted my accountant, got together back 
 17  issues you requested. 
 18             I think that pretty much covers 
 19  everything.  I also searched the computer system 
 20  that I am on for any E-mail that may have been 
 21  there or any logs.
 22       Q.    Did you throw away or dispose of or take 
 23  out of your hard drive any documents at all from 
 24  the time you saw this particular document?
 25       A.    No.  

  1                  Goldstein
  2       Q.    Did you find anything?
  3       A.    My webmaster found a couple of logs.  I 

  4  believe he forwarded them to our legal team. 
  5             As far as on the computer system, I 
  6  searched, I grepped for DeCSS through my E-mail for 
  7  anything having to do with DeCSS or DVDs.  And 
  8  there was nothing there. 
  9             I assume anything I get in the future I 
 10  am supposed to forward.
 11       Q.    The documents you found you gave to your 
 12  counsel?
 13       A.    Yes.
 14             MR. GOLD:  Mr. Garbus, do you know if 
 15       those have been supplied to this office?
 16             MR. GARBUS:  I don't know.  I presume 
 17       Mr. Hernstadt gave you whatever Mr. Goldstein 
 18       gave him.
 19             MS. MILLER:  No, we haven't received 
 20       any documents from --
 21             MR. GARBUS:  Then I will find out.  It 
 22       came at a bad time.  Hernstadt's gone.  
 23       Whatever Mr. Goldstein gave us that is 
 24       appropriate we'll certainly give you.
 25       Q.    Mr. Goldstein, when did you give these 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  documents to your lawyer?
  3       A.    I know my financial records arrived last 
  4  week from my accountant.  As far as the things from 
  5  the web site, I know our webmaster has been in 
  6  touch with Marty and Ed, our legal team, on that.  
  7  And as far as anything else, I don't think there 
  8  was anything else that I can recall.
  9             MR. GARBUS:  I had understood we had 
 10       furnished you with approximately two to 300 
 11       pages of information that is similar to the 
 12       information that had been in Mr. Goldstein's 
 13       affidavit on the motion.  I had understood 
 14       it was going to be sent to you by separate 
 15       letter.  We can check that with Mr. Hernstadt. 
 16             MS. MILLER:  OK, because as of last 
 17       night no one in this office on the team had 
 18       received any documents.  But I appreciate 
 19       your checking. 
 20             MR. GARBUS:  OK.  
 21       Q.    Mr. Goldstein, do you know any reason 
 22  why your attorneys wouldn't have turned these over 
 23  before today?
 24       A.    I know that my accountant had been away 
 25  and hadn't gotten my message until last week, so he 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  wasn't able to FedEx the documents until late last 
  3  week.  So that might be a reason for that. 
  4             Also, I brought in the back issues you 
  5  requested.  I brought those in today actually.  So 
  6  that's my fault. 
  7       Q.    Turning to page 7, number 1, what 
  8  documents do you know exist relating in any way to 
  9  the 2600 dot-com site?
 10       A.    I am not sure exactly what documents you 
 11  had in mind.  Again, it was something our webmaster 
 12  was dealing with. 
 13             As far as documents that are on the 
 14  site, we're prepared to give you an entire snapshot 
 15  of the site, which would be every page that is 
 16  there. 
 17       Q.    And that would include pages relating to 
 18  what issues?
 19       A.    Well, the site is not having to do with 
 20  the issues.  The site is the web site.  That would 
 21  include all these articles ever written on the 
 22  site.  That would include -- well, it couldn't 
 23  include the radio shows that we have up there 
 24  because that's an audio format.  So I don't know 
 25  how that would work. 

  1                  Goldstein
  2             Basically a lot documents relating to 
  3  this case, a lot of documents not relating to this 
  4  case.  If that's what you want, we can furnish you 
  5  with those as well. 
  6       Q.    When you saw this document and didn't 
  7  understand what it meant to ask for all documents 
  8  concerning the 2600 dot-com site, did you put in a 
  9  call to your lawyers? 
 10       A.    Yes, I talked to my lawyers.  I also 
 11  talked to my webmaster and told them to work it 
 12  out.
 13       Q.    Did your lawyers tell you what it meant?
 14       A.    I believe so.  I believe it was --
 15             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to any 
 16       conversations between Mr. Goldstein and his 
 17       lawyers.
 18             MR. GOLD:  I don't know that this is -- 
 19       instructions on how he was to make the 
 20       search I think are not privileged. 
 21             MR. GARBUS:  I think the judge should 
 22       rule on it. 
 23             MR. GOLD:  You don't know that rule. 
 24             MR. GARBUS:  I think the judge should 
 25       rule on it.  I think we may disagree as to 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       those conversations.
  3             MR. GOLD:  Are you saying that those 
  4       are privileged? 
  5             MR. GARBUS:  I am saying if it was a 
  6       conversation about documents, then some of 
  7       it may be privileged.  Some of it which is 
  8       just functional may not be privileged.  But 
  9       there may be privileged conversations within 
 10       that.  I would exert the privilege and then 
 11       you can get a ruling.
 12             MR. GOLD:  I am just trying to find 
 13       out what the witness was told about what 
 14       documents to produce. 
 15             MR. GARBUS:  I presume he was told to 
 16       produce everything he could.
 17             THE WITNESS:  Yes, everything I could 
 18       on the web site.  Except there is one big 
 19       omission.  You say all files made available 
 20       for download from October 1, 1999.  You 
 21       realize we can't give you DeCSS because 
 22       that's no longer on our site.
 23       Q.    You say that when you didn't understand 
 24  what you were to look for with respect to number 1, 
 25  you called your lawyers.

  1                  Goldstein
  2       A.    I don't know if I said I didn't 
  3  understand.  Just that I wanted to make sure that I 
  4  understood correctly that it was basically a 
  5  snapshot of the entire -- the entire system, which 
  6  is no problem at all. 
  7       Q.    Did you give that to your lawyers?
  8       A.    Again, that's something our webmaster 
  9  would do because he has much better technical 
 10  knowledge.
 11             MR. GARBUS:  The webmaster I presume 
 12       was told to do it or ask for it.
 13             THE WITNESS:  Yes. 
 14       Q.    When did you tell your webmaster to 
 15  produce those documents?
 16       A.    That was shortly after I got this 
 17  document.
 18       Q.    Where are they or have they been 
 19  produced to your lawyers?
 20       A.    As far as I know, they have been 
 21  produced.
 22       Q.    Those are the approximately 300 pages 
 23  that you were --
 24       A.    I don't know if it's 300 pages.  It's a 
 25  lot of pages.  I am not sure exactly how many. 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       Q.    I see.  So did your lawyer define for 
  3  you what number 1 --
  4             MR. GARBUS:  You'll get everything 
  5       that --
  6             MR. GOLD:  We're waiting, we're 
  7       waiting, we're waiting. 
  8             MR. GARBUS:  -- that he can download.
  9             MR. GOLD:  We gave you over 10,000 
 10       documents and you complain it isn't enough 
 11       even though you haven't read a tenth of them 

 12       and we asked you for a couple of documents 
 13       and they are not here. 
 14             MR. GARBUS:  Mr. Gold, you have made 
 15       your record.
 16             MR. GOLD:  What does that mean? 
 17             MR. GARBUS:  My understanding is 
 18       that --
 19             MR. GOLD:  I know what your 
 20       understanding is and I know what you do. 
 21             MR. GARBUS:  Good, so let's move on. 
 22  BY MR. GOLD: 
 23       Q.    Did your lawyer give you any description 
 24  of what you should produce with respect to item 
 25  number 1?

  1                  Goldstein
  2       A.    I think I already understood what I had 
  3  to produce. 
  4       Q.    Then why would you have called him to 
  5  ask him what it means?
  6       A.    To clarify that I understood correctly.
  7       Q.    Did you do that with number 2?
  8       A.    Number 2? 
  9       Q.    Did you clarify what your understanding 
 10  of what number 2 was?
 11       A.    Well, number 2 is documents that grant 
 12  us the right to copy motion pictures, and I know we 
 13  don't have documents that tell us we can copy 
 14  motion pictures.  So --
 15       Q.    So you knew what number 2 was and you 
 16  didn't have to ask; is that right?
 17       A.    Well, it's pretty obvious those 
 18  documents didn't exist.
 19       Q.    When you knew what 1 meant, and since 
 20  you knew what it meant, why did you have to ask 
 21  about it?
 22       A.    To clarify it, to make sure that -- you 
 23  wanted a copy of everything on the site and that's 
 24  what we were going to do, and I was going to ask 
 25  the webmaster to provide you with that. 

  1                  Goldstein
  2             You should understand the people on our 
  3  site are basically in school and sometimes they are 
  4  not easily reachable. 
  5             We have tried as hard as we can to get 
  6  these documents, and we wanted to be thorough.  We 
  7  wanted to make sure we didn't just give you a 
  8  couple of things.  We wanted to make sure you got 
  9  what you were asking for.
 10       Q.    So does that mean with respect to number 
 11  1 you have not yet finished contacting all the 
 12  people you want to contact?
 13       A.    There's one person and I contacted that 
 14  person, that's our webmaster.
 15       Q.    What about all these people you just 
 16  referred to who work after school?
 17       A.    I am saying people who I am in contact 
 18  with, and the webmaster is one of them, they don't 
 19  have full-time jobs with our site.  So I have to 
 20  find where they are.  I have to E-mail them.  It 
 21  might be a couple of days before they get back to 
 22  me sometimes, but it is our intention to get you 
 23  every document you asked for. 
 24       Q.    Have you already done that?
 25       A.    As far as I know, that has already been 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  submitted.  As far as I know. 
  3       Q.    To?
  4       A.    It's -- I believe it's been E-mailed 
  5  over to the legal team. 
  6       Q.    Your legal team.
  7       A.    Yes. 
  8       Q.    Who is on your legal team other than 
  9  Mr. Garbus and Mr. Hernstadt?
 10       A.    Those are the two names I know.  I know 
 11  there are more people working on the case.
 12       Q.    Is it true that 3 would have been a part 
 13  of number 1, that you have already produced?
 14       A.    Yes.  That's something that I would have 
 15  immediate control over because you were asking 
 16  within my possession, and so I did that, that 
 17  search on my system where I get my E-mail. 
 18       Q.    It would relate to you or the company, I 
 19  gather.
 20       A.    Right.
 21       Q.    And you searched for any possible 
 22  documents --
 23       A.    I searched throughout my E-mail.
 24       Q.    -- that belong to the company.
 25       A.    If you mean did I search other people's 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  E-mail, that doesn't belong to the company.
  3       Q.    What does the word "other people" mean 
  4  in that?
  5       A.    The system, 2600 dot-com, is what's 
  6  known as shell machine.  It is used by people who 
  7  write articles for the magazine.  It is used by 
  8  people who are affiliated one way or another, 
  9  whether they, you know, they do covers, they're 
 10  artists, they're writers.  They help us out in some 
 11  way technically.  And they each have an account on 
 12  the machine and they receive E-mail there.  They 
 13  have their files this. 
 14             And it is not our position to claim 
 15  ownership over those files, over that E-mail.  I 
 16  know many companies do claim ownership.  We just 
 17  don't subscribe to that philosophy. 
 18             So the way I took number 3 to mean is 
 19  that I should look through my possessions, my 
 20  E-mail, my files for anything having to do with the 
 21  DeCSS, which is what I did.
 22       Q.    Can you name the people that you 
 23  referred to?
 24       A.    Not all of them. 
 25       Q.    Name as many as you can, sir.

  1                  Goldstein
  2       A.    We're talking several dozen people here.
  3       Q.    Take a shot.
  4       A.    I can give you user names of people, but 
  5  I can't place names to them.  Is that enough for 
  6  you?  Because the way --
  7       Q.    What's the user name?
  8       A.    A user name is what you log in as.  For 
  9  instance, my user name is Emmanuel.
 10       Q.    Why don't people use their real names?
 11       A.    Well, for one thing, the way the system 
 12  is set up you can't type in a full name.  The way 
 13  the Net works, people choose handles, and basically 
 14  it's your identity on that particular computer 
 15  system.  You may choose a different identity on a 
 16  different system.  You may use the same identity 
 17  everywhere.  You may use your real name.  People do 
 18  a lot of mixing and matching. 
 19             What I would be happy to do is give you 
 20  a user list on our system.  That's not what you 
 21  asked for.  So I didn't provide that.  But if 
 22  that's what you want, I will happily give you 
 23  that.
 24  RQ   Q.    Thank you.  We are requesting it. 
 25       A.    Sure.

  1                  Goldstein
  2       Q.    And all those names would be on that 
  3  list?
  4       A.    The names of the log-in.  You have to 
  5  understand, I don't even know a lot of people's 
  6  names.  I don't need to know.  I don't ask. 
  7             But what I can give you is -- this 
  8  sounds like something it's not, but I can give you 
  9  our password file, which basically is a list of all 
 10  of our users.  It doesn't contain the password.  It 
 11  contains the encrypted password, which is a good 
 12  form of encryption, I believe. 
 13             MR. GARBUS:  I will take this under 
 14       advisement.  It seems to me a press issue 
 15       here as to exactly what he is turning over 
 16       and whether a member of the press should be 
 17       required to turn this over. 
 18             I will just take it under advisement.  
 19       I haven't thought out the ramifications of 
 20       it. 
 21       Q.    The part-time people that work for 2600 
 22  and who go to school during the day, how many of 
 23  them are there?
 24       A.    Well, there are lots of people.  I 
 25  wouldn't say they are part-time employees or 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  employees in any sense.  They are volunteers, 
  3  people who help out whatever way they can.  Whether 
  4  it's writing an occasional article or submitting 
  5  something of interest to us or advising us in some 
  6  way.
  7             They're people from all different age 
  8  groups, all different parts of the world.  It's 
  9  impossible, and I don't think desirable, to know 
 10  exactly who they are or where they are, what their 
 11  Social Security number is.  It's not what we're 
 12  about. 
 13       Q.    Do you pay any of them?
 14       A.    The only people we pay are the office 
 15  staff and the people who do things like design 
 16  covers or print the magazine.
 17       Q.    All the office staff consists of one 
 18  person?
 19       A.    One person, yes.
 20       Q.    So you don't pay any of these part-time 
 21  people.
 22       A.    No, we don't consider them part-time 
 23  people.  We consider them volunteers that do what 
 24  they can when they can.
 25       Q.    Do any of the volunteers live in the 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  greater New York area?
  3       A.    It's possible.  I mean, I imagine so. 
  4       Q.    Do you have these volunteers listed 
  5  somewhere, however you list them?
  6       A.    We have a staff list which we put in the 
  7  front of the magazine, and that lists writers -- 
  8  yes, you can get a pretty good sense of who 
  9  volunteers though, what they do.
 10       Q.    That would constitute in any one issue 
 11  about what percentage of the volunteers?
 12       A.    Actually that's probably more than the 
 13  people who volunteer that particular time.  I mean, 
 14  at any one time -- for instance, we have a 
 15  conference coming up in a month.  We have a few 
 16  dozen people who are going to be working different 
 17  things, whether it be hooking up a network over 
 18  there, running security, doing various other things 
 19  that you have to do when there's a conference.  
 20  Nobody is getting paid to do this.  It's something 
 21  they all want to do. 
 22             That's something that happens at this 
 23  particular time because we're doing a conference.  
 24  What happens in the fall will be completely 
 25  different.  We'll have people who write articles, 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  people who, you know, who submit various things to 
  3  the magazine, people who let us know what's going 
  4  on, tip us off on a story.
  5       Q.    And the names of every one of these 
  6  people is listed in at least one issue of your 
  7  magazine.
  8       A.    The names they want to go by, yes.  We 
  9  don't require that they give us their real names or 
 10  that we even know who they really are.  It's not 
 11  our place. 
 12       Q.    Why not?
 13       A.    We're a magazine.  We print information 
 14  and that's where we draw the line.  I mean, if 
 15  somebody wants to be, you know, known to us, then 
 16  they will introduce themselves to us.  But we're 
 17  not going to force our way into people's lives and 
 18  demand to know who they are.
 19       Q.    The New York Times and Sacramento 
 20  Journal and all other publications that I know 
 21  about know who works for them.  They have their 
 22  names.  Why wouldn't you?
 23       A.    We're not The New York Times.  We're a 
 24  magazine dealing with technological issues.  Lots 
 25  of times articles are written by kids, by people 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  from other countries.  We don't run our operation 
  3  the same way as The New York Times or as many 
  4  newspapers or magazines.  We --
  5       Q.    What if they -- I am sorry.  Did I cut 
  6  you off?
  7       A.    We allow people to use what I described 
  8  before as handles, which is basically you make up 
  9  your own name.  You define yourself.  And that's 
 10  perfectly OK with us. 
 11             A newspaper like The New York Times, 
 12  obviously they want your real name because they're 
 13  paying you.  They have to have all your 
 14  documentation, your Social Security number, all 
 15  that kind of thing, and that's, you know, that's 
 16  perfectly OK, but that's not what we do.
 17       Q.    Well, some of these no-named or 
 18  fictitious-named people that volunteer write 
 19  articles, don't they?
 20       A.    Yes, some people do.
 21       Q.    And wouldn't you want to know how to 
 22  find them in case you had a problem because they 
 23  printed something that was a total lie?
 24       A.    Well, for someone who writes more than 
 25  one article we gave them an E-mail address in our 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  system.  So that's how we contact them.
  3       Q.    And you have a list of those E-mail 
  4  addresses.
  5       A.    That's what I was describing before.
  6       Q.    Can you provide those to us?
  7       A.    I can provide you with the list of the 
  8  users on our system, yes.
  9       Q.    You say you're not interested in the 
 10  name of anyone who just writes one article for you. 
 11             MR. GARBUS:  That isn't what he said. 
 12             MR. GOLD:  I see. 
 13       Q.    Is that true or false?
 14       A.    I am not interested in anybody's real 
 15  name.  It's not relevant to what I do.  We have 
 16  people who write letters to the editor and, you 
 17  know, we don't consider them staff people, but it's 
 18  something that appears in the magazine as well. 
 19       Q.    Other than letters to the editor, if 
 20  someone writes a story for you that you print, but 
 21  they only write one, you don't want anything from 
 22  them, any way of finding them or contacting them.
 23       A.    Other than the E-mail address, there's 
 24  no need.  We give people who write to us a free 
 25  subscription.  So that's basically what we do. 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       Q.    So a one-time author, he is lost 
  3  forever.
  4       A.    If he doesn't write to us again, yes.
  5       Q.    Isn't it true that you print the names 
  6  of people who write letters to the editor?
  7       A.    We print whatever name they sign.  So 
  8  it's very rare you'll see somebody's real name 
  9  signed to a letter.
 10       Q.    That's sent to your publication.  
 11       A.    Right. 
 12       Q.    Do you have any standard procedures you 
 13  use to check on the truth of articles that you 
 14  write in your publication?
 15       A.    Yes.  We -- it depends on the article.  
 16  I mean, there are many different things, but we'll 
 17  test things out.  We'll make sure that the person 
 18  knows something of what they are talking about, 
 19  that the system that they are describing really 
 20  exists, that the theories they are talking about 
 21  seem to make some sort of sense.  It is different 
 22  with every article.
 23       Q.    You don't check outside sources, just 
 24  the writer?
 25             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.

  1                  Goldstein
  2       A.    I am not sure what you mean.
  3       Q.    In terms of your diligence when you're 
  4  about to print an article, do you do any checking 
  5  other than with the person who wrote that?
  6       A.    Oh, of course.  To see if they are 
  7  describing particular computer operating systems, 
  8  of course we check to see if the operating system 
  9  exists.  We check to see if what they are 
 10  describing -- many times what people write is 
 11  theoretical in nature.  So we check to see if the 
 12  theory seems to be a valid theory.  Not necessarily 
 13  whether it will work, but whether it's conceivable.
 14       Q.    Have you written articles about any of 
 15  the plaintiffs in the last six months?
 16       A.    Other than ourselves? 
 17       Q.    Have any articles or writing appeared in 
 18  2600 about any of the plaintiffs?
 19       A.    The editorial is what, um, and some 
 20  letters to the editor.
 21       Q.    Have you ever checked with any of the 
 22  plaintiffs about anything you wrote?
 23       A.    I am not sure what you mean. 
 24             MR. GARBUS:  Object to form.
 25       Q.    Did you ever call them up?

  1                  Goldstein
  2             MR. GARBUS:  Whether you check with 
  3       the MPAA and ask --
  4             MR. GOLD:  No, I didn't say the MPA.  
  5       I said any of the plaintiffs.
  6       A.    Well, what I write is an opinion piece. 
  7  So --
  8       Q.    You don't check.
  9       A.    I don't think I have to check with 
 10  somebody if I write an opinion piece.
 11       Q.    Does your opinion piece ever contain any 
 12  statements of facts?
 13       A.    It contains my interpretation.
 14       Q.    Of statements of fact?
 15       A.    My interpretation of facts, yes.
 16       Q.    And you believe that they're right?
 17       A.    My opinion that they are right. 
 18       Q.    Did you ever try to contact any of the 
 19  movie studios or MPAA about any of the statements 
 20  you have written in the last year?
 21       A.    I haven't been writing about the MPAA 
 22  for a year.  Only since they filed suit against us.  
 23  I don't think it is appropriate for me to be 
 24  contacting them if they filed suit against me.
 25       Q.    Who told you that?

  1                  Goldstein
  2       A.    That's my opinion. 
  3       Q.    So the answer to my question is no?
  4       A.    Have I contacted them?  No.  
  5             MR. GOLD:  Simple.  Truth is simple.  
  6       OK.  Have a nice lunch.
  7             THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  The time is 12:57 
  8       p.m. we're going off the record. 
  9             (A luncheon recess was taken at 
 10       12:57 p.m.)

  1                  Goldstein
  2               A F T E R N O O N    S E S S I O N
  3                (Time noted:  2:08 p.m.)
  4             THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  The time is 2:08 p.m.  
  5       We're back on the record. 
  6             MR. GARBUS:  Mr. Gold, let me tell 
  7       you, I had checked during the intermission. 
  8       My recollection that we had furnished you 
  9       with material that comes within point 1 was 
 10       accurate; namely, that in the affidavit of 
 11       Emmanuel Goldstein that had been submitted 
 12       on the motion, we had furnished you, as I 
 13       understand it, with all documents concerning 
 14       the 2600 web site as it existed since I 
 15       think about November 12th. 
 16             With respect to the other information, 
 17       we are still trying to get that for you.  
 18       But my understanding is that that information 
 19       had been furnished to you a good while ago.
 20             MR. GOLD:  As an exhibit in 
 21       Mr. Corley's affidavit? 
 22             MR. GARBUS:  Yes, yes.
 23             MR. GOLD:  Well, we have that.
 24             MR. GARBUS:  What I am saying is that 
 25       has been furnished to you.  My understanding 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       is --
  3             MR. GOLD:  And this is a room with a 
  4       table also, but now what about all the 
  5       documents that the witness gave to you that 
  6       he said that you said you hadn't produced  
  7       or that we said you hadn't produced?
  8             MR. GARBUS:  Mr. Hernstadt as I 
  9       understood has furnished it to you and 
 10       you'll presumably get it by today or 
 11       tomorrow. 
 12             MR. GOLD:  Do you know why it hasn't 
 13       been produced for the last week? 
 14             MR. GARBUS:  I presume because 
 15       Mr. Hernstadt has been busy doing other 
 16       things.
 17             MR. GOLD:  Instead of producing 
 18       documents to us.  Yes, I would guess that 
 19       too.  I just didn't understand what your 
 20       statement had to do with the fact that you 
 21       hadn't produced the documents we were 
 22       talking about.
 23             MR. GARBUS:  Because you have to 
 24       understand that you have 90 percent of the 
 25       documents.

  1                  Goldstein
  2             MR. GOLD:  How do you know?  You have 
  3       never seen them, have you? 
  4             MR. GARBUS:  Of course I have.
  5  RQ         MR. GOLD:  Mr. Garbus, we would like to 
  6       hire an expert and get expert to the 
  7       witness's hard drive --
  8             MR. GARBUS:  I will take it under 
  9       advisement.
 10             MR. GOLD:  -- for the expert to 
 11       download certain things that Mr. Goldstein 
 12       says he can't download. 
 13             MR. GARBUS:  I will take it under 
 14       advisement. 
 15             MR. GOLD:  When will you tell us?  
 16       Because I would like to know tomorrow. 
 17             MR. GARBUS:  I will try to tell you 
 18       tomorrow. 
 19             MR. GOLD:  OK. 
 20             In doing that, we would only ask for 
 21       the production of whatever relates to DeCSS 
 22       and CSS. 
 23             MR. GARBUS:  So if there's nothing on 
 24       the hard drive that relates to either of 
 25       those two things, we don't have an issue.  

  1                  Goldstein
  2       So the first question is whether or not --
  3             MR. GOLD:  What does that mean we 
  4       don't have an issue? 
  5             MR. GARBUS:  In other words, let's 
  6       assume there's nothing on his hard drive.
  7             MR. GOLD:  We won't know until we get 
  8       an expert in to --
  9             MR. GARBUS:  In other words, you won't 
 10       take his representation that there's nothing 
 11       on his hard drive that relates to CSS or 
 12       DeCSS and may contain other information, 
 13       some of which you clearly ought not to see. 
 14             MR. GOLD:  He hasn't got any idea what 
 15       is on the hard drive.  He was trying to 
 16       search it.
 17             MR. GARBUS:  First, we have to 
 18       determine what is on the hard drive.
 19             MR. GOLD:  He said he couldn't do 
 20       that.  You weren't here this morning.
 21             MR. GARBUS:  No, I was here this 
 22       morning.
 23             MR. GOLD:  Well, I mean actually. 
 24             MR. GARBUS:  We will take your request 
 25       under advisement. 

  1                  Goldstein
  2             MR. GOLD:  What your witness has 
  3       testified, if you were here, was that he 
  4       didn't feel he could pull down --
  5             MR. GARBUS:  Can't you contain 
  6       yourself, Mr. Gold?  Go ahead. 
  7             MR. GOLD:  That is a funny question.  
  8       I join in your laughter.  Do you want to 
  9       weigh how much time you took up today 
 10       against how much time I am taking up now?  
 11             MR. GARBUS:  Go ahead, Mr. Gold. 
 12             MR. GOLD:  Your witness as you know 
 13       testified this morning that he didn't think 
 14       he could pull anything down from his hard 
 15       drive, that he had tried before and couldn't 
 16       do it, that it wasn't set up in order to do 
 17       that. 
 18             I found that surprising in light of 
 19       what I read in the papers all the time about 
 20       other people's hard drives, but I am not a 
 21       hard drive expert.  So he said that he 
 22       didn't think it could be done.  And he was 
 23       trying to do it.  We want to get somebody in 
 24       to actually see if that's true and whether 
 25       he can get something. 

  1                  Goldstein
  2             MR. GARBUS:  We'll take it under 
  3       advisement.  
  4             THE WITNESS:  Can I say something at 
  5       this point?  I get maybe a thousand pieces 
  6       of E-mail a day.  I am not quite sure how 
  7       somebody is going to go through all the 
  8       deleted mail, which has probably been 
  9       overwritten by new material since then over 
 10       the past several months, and track that.  I 
 11       mean, it's not possible.  If it were 
 12       possible it would take you years, but I 
 13       don't think it's possible at all. 
 14             MR. GOLD:  Well, we'll take a crack at 
 15       it, if you permit us to.  That's an 
 16       unfortunate word.  We'll take a shot at it 
 17       and we'll see if that's right, and if 
 18       there's anything that he can get out that's 
 19       relevant, he or she, then we'll ask for its 
 20       production. 
 21             MR. GARBUS:  As I said, I will take it 
 22       under advisement.  I will try and make a 
 23       determination.  If I can make a 
 24       determination by tomorrow, I will tell you.  
 25       If we require something more than that, I 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       will also tell you. 
  3             MR. GOLD:  OK, well, I hope we get it 
  4       from you tomorrow.  
  5  E M M A N U E L   G O L D S T E I N , resumed and 
  6       testified as follows:
  7  EXAMINATION BY (Cont'd.)
  8  MR. GOLD: 
  9       Q.    Now, I take it that all of the material 
 10  you attached to one of your affidavits was material 
 11  relating to sites that 2600 was linking to, not 
 12  material related to 2600. 
 13             MR. GARBUS:  That's wrong.
 14       A.    I don't believe so. 
 15             MR. GARBUS:  I assume you're familiar 
 16       with the affidavits we submitted in the 
 17       case.  That's wrong. 
 18             MR. GOLD:  Paragraph 5 of your 
 19       June 14th declaration says:  As I stated in 
 20       my previous declaration in support of this 
 21       motion, the sites containing DeCSS, mirrors 
 22       to which we currently link, are very diverse 
 23       in nature.  In particular, many of these 
 24       sites provide a variety of legitimate 
 25       information concerning topics related to 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       this case and DeCSS.  I know that's more 
  3       than just mirrors setting forth the DeCSS 
  4       code.  Annexed hereto as Exhibit C are 
  5       copies of the first page of the newer sites 
  6       currently listed on 2600.
  7       A.    Uh-huh.  That's a list.  Not the entire 
  8  site.  That's a list of the sites.
  9       Q.    But what we have in that bulky exhibit 
 10  are copies taken from those sites that you link to, 
 11  right?
 12       A.    I am not sure.  I haven't --
 13             MR. GOLD:  This is what Mr. Garbus must 
 14       be talking of.  It may be yet again that he 
 15       has committed an error.
 16             MR. GARBUS:  In other words, are there 
 17       anything here from you or is it just from 
 18       the newer sites?
 19             THE WITNESS:  Those are different 
 20       sites.  There's a list -- yes, these are by 
 21       samples from other sites.
 22             MR. GOLD:  Et bien, what do you say 
 23       now? 
 24             MR. GARBUS:  If I am in error, then 
 25       I'm in error.  In other words, if you're 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       telling me that we didn't give him that, 
  3       then we should certainly give you that.  I 
  4       had understood we had given that to you.
  5             THE WITNESS:  This looks like an 
  6       indication that the sites are diverse in 
  7       nature and have all kinds of other material 
  8       in addition to DeCSS.  I think that's the 
  9       point of submitting this. 
 10             MR. GARBUS:  Right. 
 11             MS. MILLER:  Was there another stack 
 12       of documents you were talking about that was 
 13       attached in --
 14             MR. GARBUS:  I thought there was.  I 
 15       had thought I had seen a set of documents 
 16       which were everything that we had done from 
 17       October -- not October, from let's say 
 18       November until now.  When I say everything, 
 19       I mean some of the 2600 editorials.
 20             THE WITNESS:  Actually, I see it over 
 21       there.  That stack right there, those are 
 22       our editorials.  That's what we would have 
 23       given you.  It's really not that much.  It's 
 24       everything we've written on the web site 
 25       from November until now. 

  1                  Goldstein
  2             MR. GARBUS:  I thought we had given 
  3       that to you.  If I'm in error, you'll 
  4       certainly get it.
  5       Q.    Can you state for the record, perhaps 
  6  again, what it is you think you've given us? 
  7             MR. GARBUS:  Be specific.  You have 
  8       seen this.  If I am an error or if they 
  9       haven't received it, don't give them that.  
 10       Just describe what's in this package.
 11             MR. GOLD:  Is it all right if I ask 
 12       the questions and without direction to the 
 13       witness?
 14             MR. GARBUS:  But you're misleading the 
 15       witness, Mr. Gold.
 16             MR. GOLD:  You know how to object.  
 17       And you shouldn't tell the witness what to 
 18       say.  You really shouldn't.
 19             MR. GARBUS:  Mr. Gold, please.  
 20       Contain yourself.
 21       A.    As far as I know, obviously we gave 
 22  you this, which is a description of other --
 23       Q.    Did you give us that?  Do you know that?
 24       A.    From what you told me today, yes.
 25       Q.    You have it in front of you.  Did you

  1                  Goldstein
  2  give it to us?
  3       A.    I remember we went through to find 
  4  samples of other sites, but this was quite some 
  5  time ago.  So this was a couple of months ago. 
  6             I also know that we have gone through 
  7  every single news item that we have written on the 
  8  sites and I presume that was submitted to you as 
  9  well. 
 10       Q.    By whom?
 11       A.    By our lawyers. 
 12       Q.    When did you give those to your lawyers?
 13       A.    I think we have gone through those 
 14  several times actually.  I mean --
 15       Q.    I don't know who the "we" is, sir.
 16       A.    Me, my lawyers, our webmaster.
 17       Q.    Have gone through the stuff you wrote 
 18  for your web site.
 19       A.    The news items on the web site, yes.
 20       Q.    The ones you wrote?
 21       A.    The ones I had written and the ones that 
 22  are written by other people as well.
 23       Q.    So you say there was a group of -- stack 
 24  of papers that are taken -- of pictures taken from 
 25  your or copies taken from your web site.

  1                  Goldstein
  2       A.    They're basically just articles, yes.
  3       Q.    Were taken from the web site and they're 
  4  articles or editorials that you have written.
  5       A.    Yes. 
  6       Q.    And then you gave them to your lawyers, 
  7  that stack; is that true?
  8       A.    We either gave it to them or we told 
  9  them exactly how it's -- how to print them out.  I 
 10  mean, anybody can do this.  You just go to the web 
 11  site and print.
 12       Q.    Then I take it you're not sure you gave 
 13  them this stack?
 14       A.    There have been so many papers floating 
 15  around, I don't know if those are the ones that I 
 16  handed to them or if I just said this is how you 
 17  print them out.  But I know we've been over this.
 18             MR. GARBUS:  Mr. Gold, let me just say 
 19       one thing.  Anybody can just go to the site 
 20       and download it.  My memory is that 
 21       Mr. Goldstein told us how to do it.  We did 
 22       it and I thought we had given those 
 23       documents to you.  If we have not, you'll 
 24       get it.  They're available to anybody who 
 25       wants to get it. 

  1                  Goldstein
  2             THE WITNESS:  I see them here though.  
  3       Either we gave them to you or you printed 
  4       them out yourself.  So I am not quite sure. 
  5             MS. MILLER:  Some of them we printed 
  6       ourselves. 
  7       Q.    But you don't remember -- I take it that 
  8  you gave us that of those stories or editorials to 
  9  your lawyer.
 10       A.    I know we have gone through it at some 
 11  point.  And I am fairly certain that all the papers 
 12  have been submitted that we're supposed to submit.  
 13  I can't give you a time and date of every single 
 14  one we did.
 15       Q.    Why are you so certain?
 16       A.    Because I have been going through this 
 17  for quite some time.
 18       Q.    Why does that mean they were given to us 
 19  if you sat and went through them?
 20             MR. GARBUS:  I will object.  This is 
 21       totally unnecessary.  I will direct the 
 22       witness not to answer.
 23             MR. GOLD:  You don't want to let him 
 24       answer any more questions about the 
 25       production?

  1                  Goldstein
  2             MR. GARBUS:  No, I'm not going to let 
  3       him answer that question.  It's badgering 
  4       him.  He said he gave the papers to us.  
  5       What happens, whether the papers go from us 
  6       to you or not, it's not something he should 
  7       be badgered over. 
  8             What I am telling you is that it's my 
  9       understanding we gave it to you.  It's also 
 10       totally on the public record.  It's not 
 11       anything that's being withheld, and you have 
 12       indicated that you have some of those 
 13       documents.  Anybody can download it. 
 14       Q.    Are all those documents downloadable now 
 15  or are some of them lost?
 16       A.    No, we don't erase anything on our site, 
 17  that's on the web site.
 18       Q.    What about E-mail?  That's not on the --
 19       A.    E-mail is not on the web site.
 20             MR. GOLD:  I gather, Mr. Garbus, you 
 21       don't know whether those documents were 
 22       given to us personally.
 23             MR. GARBUS:  My understanding is they 
 24       were.  But I could be wrong.  If I am wrong, 
 25       you will get the documents.  But they are 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       public knowledge.  Anybody can get them.  
  3       Nothing has been withheld from you.
  4       Q.    Turning to item number 8, did you search 
  5  for those documents? 
  6       A.    Yes, this is the E-mail that I grepped 
  7  through for any mention of these words. 
  8       Q.    Where did you look for them?
  9       A.    On my home system, 2600 dot-com.  But I 
 10  should point out, I as a rule don't save mail.  It 
 11  clogs up the system. 
 12             As far as chat rooms, I never save 
 13  anything from chat rooms.  That's gone as soon as 
 14  it's sent and that doesn't even get saved to hard 
 15  drive, ever.
 16       Q.    Do I take it you looked through every 
 17  one of these 14 -- make it, sorry, 26 categories 
 18  and made, I'm sorry, there are 31 at page 12.  You 
 19  have looked through all of these 31 requests?
 20       A.    Yes.
 21       Q.    And made searches for everything within 
 22  them.
 23       A.    Yes.
 24       Q.    And they would either be on your 
 25  computer or in a stack of papers in your basement.

  1                  Goldstein
  2       A.    Yes, attic.  Either there or on the 
  3  computer or just not in existence. 
  4       Q.    How high is that stack of papers in your 
  5  basement?
  6       A.    It's pretty formidable.
  7       Q.    Three feet or ten feet?
  8       A.    It's more like mail bags filled with 
  9  information.  And it's basically old financial 
 10  records, things like that.  It's all pretty well 
 11  labeled, so I have no trouble finding -- I have no 
 12  trouble finding old financial records. 
 13       Q.    Each document there is labeled?
 14       A.    Well, we put them in envelopes and label 
 15  what they are.  Some would say, you know, tax 
 16  return from this particular year.  That's where you 
 17  find it.
 18       Q.    What are the other categories?
 19       A.    Basically subscriber E-mail -- not 
 20  E-mail, subscriber mail.  People who send mail to 
 21  us wanting to subscribe.  We save that.  Our bills, 
 22  bills that we paid, things like that. 
 23       Q.    What other things were there?
 24       A.    That's about it.  There's an awful lot 
 25  of it that accumulates over the years. 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       Q.    So you say some old E-mails.
  3       A.    No, not E-mails, just mail.  Paper mail 
  4  that gets sent to us.  Someone writes us and says 
  5  they want to subscribe.  We save that in case 
  6  they -- we need to access it in the future.
  7       Q.    What is the Electronic Frontier 
  8  Foundation?
  9       A.    EFF is an organization that basically 
 10  keeps an eye on the various laws being passed that 
 11  affect electronic liberty and freedom and that kind 
 12  of thing.  That spark their interest. 
 13       Q.    What does electronic freedom mean?
 14       A.    What's my opinion? 
 15       Q.    When you use it, yes.
 16       A.    Basically having the same rights on the 
 17  Net as you have in real life off the Net.  And also 
 18  keeping an eye out for privacy invasions by 
 19  whatever powers that be. 
 20       Q.    Does it relate to any rights you have 
 21  with respect to DVDs?
 22       A.    They saw the --
 23             MR. GARBUS:  Object to the form of the 
 24       question.
 25       A.    They saw the lawsuit against us as 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  something that they wanted to challenge. 
  3       Q.    They saw?  Who is "they"?
  4       A.    EFF. 
  5       Q.    I think you said the Electronic Frontier 
  6  Foundation --
  7       A.    Right. 
  8       Q.    -- supports having the same freedom on 
  9  the Internet one has in real life; is that correct?
 10       A.    Well, that's my interpretation.  I am 
 11  not quoting them saying that. 
 12       Q.    I just want to make sure I didn't 
 13  misquote you.
 14       A.    But that's what I believe.
 15       Q.    And does that relate to DVDs I asked 
 16  you.  Can you answer that yes or no and then 
 17  explain it?
 18       A.    Yes, in this case because the whole 
 19  concept of fair use, the whole concept of being 
 20  able to engage in free speech, it's related to this 
 21  whole DVD issue. 
 22       Q.    What speech is being attacked?
 23             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to the form 
 24       of the question.
 25       A.    Speech in the form of source code, 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  speech in the form of being able to communicate 
  3  openly about encryption and to compare techniques 
  4  of encryption.  That's basically it that relates to 
  5  speech. 
  6       Q.    Did you have any communication you 
  7  received from Roman Kazan or Shawn Reimerdes?
  8       A.    No.  I mean, I spoke to Roman Kazan in 
  9  person at the Linux Expo in I believe it was 
 10  January, and the other person I have never met.
 11       Q.    What did you talk to him about?
 12       A.    Well, I hadn't seen him in a while.  So 
 13  we talked about a bunch of things.  He was a friend 
 14  of mine from years ago. 
 15             He runs an Internet service provider.  
 16  Basically he has a lot of customers that use his 
 17  system, and he was just very worried about having 
 18  to deal with a lawsuit and having to expose his 
 19  subscribers to that.  And that's eventually why he 
 20  dropped out of the case. 
 21       Q.    Now, the stacks of paper in your 
 22  basement, you said many of them related to 
 23  financial information?
 24       A.    Attic, yes. 
 25       Q.    In the attic, I'm sorry.

  1                  Goldstein
  2       A.    Just, you know, tax returns.  A lot of 
  3  stuff that my accountant already has and has better 
  4  copies of.  Receipts, things like that.  You know, 
  5  I like to save things.
  6       Q.    Turning to 26 in that document, sir, 
  7  page 11.  Did you understand that to ask you to 
  8  produce all your financial records?
  9       A.    Yes, and that has all been produced.
 10       Q.    It has all been produced to you. 
 11             MR. GARBUS:  It has been produced to 
 12       us. 
 13             MR. GOLD:  I didn't ask for your 
 14       understanding.  I am asking your witness. 
 15             MR. GARBUS:  Mr. Gold, just stop it. 
 16             MR. GOLD:  Not you. 
 17             MR. GARBUS:  Just stop it.
 18             MR. GOLD:  Don't answer questions for 
 19       your witness, Mr. Garbus.  Thank you. 
 20       Q.    What is your answer?
 21       A.    They were produced to our attorneys, 
 22  yes.
 23       Q.    Where are they now?
 24       A.    I imagine they are still there.  They 
 25  were produced late last week.

  1                  Goldstein
  2       Q.    You have taken them all out of the 
  3  stack?
  4       A.    No.  Actually I verified that my 
  5  accountant had better copies of that.  I figured 
  6  those are the ones you wanted.
  7       Q.    Your accountant sent them to your 
  8  lawyers or --
  9       A.    I contacted our accountant and he 
 10  FedEx'd them I believe last Thursday.  So they 
 11  should have received it on Friday. 
 12             MR. GOLD:  You haven't turned those 
 13       over, have you, Mr. Garbus? 
 14             MR. GARBUS:  I would have to speak to 
 15       Mr. Hernstadt. 
 16             MR. GOLD:  You don't know.
 17             MR. GARBUS:  I don't know.
 18       A.    I know at the time my attorneys were 
 19  in California.  So that probably accounts for any 
 20  delay. 
 21       Q.    If you turn to page 9 of the document, 
 22  Mr. Goldstein, number 14 at the bottom.  Did you 
 23  understand what that called for?
 24       A.    Yes. 
 25       Q.    What was your understanding?

  1                  Goldstein
  2       A.    Those are log files.  Those are files 
  3  that basically show who hits your web site, how 
  4  often, what pages they look at.  I talked to my 
  5  webmaster about it.  And since, um, I believe it's 
  6  since last summer we haven't kept log files.  I 
  7  know he found a couple of test log files that he 
  8  ran, I believe it was sometime this spring. 
  9             But we had a problem with -- we had so 
 10  many hits coming in that it caused problems with 
 11  our site.  Because what you do with log files is 
 12  you go through them all and you come up with 
 13  percentages.  You say this many people from this 
 14  kind of a site hit this particular page.  We did 
 15  this once a week on Sunday nights. 
 16             It turned out that what happened on 
 17  Sunday nights, there was so much activity and these 
 18  files became so big, that our system would crash.  
 19  And after a while visitors to our site from years 
 20  ago remember that we had a counter on the front 
 21  page that says how many people had gone to the 
 22  front page.  Every time that system crashed that 
 23  number would go back to number 1.  And it got kind 
 24  of embarrassing after a while that our large number 
 25  was always going down to 1. 

  1                  Goldstein
  2             So we just said enough, it's not worth 
  3  it.  Let's just stop.  Because we have a lot of 
  4  people visiting the site.  That's what's important, 
  5  and the logs don't really matter that much.  And 
  6  they really don't.  Because we don't care who is 
  7  visiting our site.  We don't care what they're 
  8  looking at.   Obviously people are visiting the 
  9  site.  That's all that really matters. 
 10             Plus we just don't have the staff to 
 11  deal with this.  If we were a big company, we had a 
 12  lot of people, we could give somebody the job of 
 13  watching over the logs and making sure the machine 
 14  doesn't crash.  But basically we're talking about 

 15  two people running this thing.
 16       Q.    You mentioned your webmaster took two 
 17  tests, something or other?
 18       A.    Test log files.
 19       Q.    Test log files.  And where are those?
 20       A.    I believe he submitted those.
 21       Q.    To?
 22       A.    To our attorneys.  I believe they were 
 23  submitted late last week, maybe even early this 
 24  week.  I had a little bit of trouble getting hold 
 25  of him.  But I know he did submit them.

  1                  Goldstein
  2       Q.    You submitted the originals and not 
  3  copies?
  4       A.    You can't really do that.  It's a file.  
  5  So he sent a copy of the file to our attorneys.  
  6  Yes.
  7             MR. GOLD:  Mr. Garbus, have you turned 
  8       those over to us yet? 
  9             MR. GARBUS:  I would have to speak to 
 10       Mr. Hernstadt.
 11             MR. GOLD:  Because if you have, we 
 12       don't know about it. 
 13             By the way, I did want to mention on 
 14       the record, since we had put so much on the 
 15       record earlier on this subject, you at 
 16       several times made an offer to continue the 
 17       deposition today for the rest of the 
 18       afternoon while some of us went to court, 
 19       and I said I thought that I had to be in 
 20       court, which I still think I have to be.  
 21       But I did say after a bit that we could do 
 22       that.  But you have changed your mind, I 
 23       gather.  You don't want to do that.  
 24             MR. GARBUS:  What I determined was 
 25       that issues came up this morning that if 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       Mr. Hernstadt did not know about he would be 
  3       at a disadvantage, so he ought to be there.  
  4       In exchange for that I had suggested that we 
  5       start early tomorrow morning so that if 
  6       we've lost two hours Mr. Goldstein and I 
  7       would be prepared to start at 8 o'clock 
  8       tomorrow morning or 7:30 to make up for the 
  9       lost hours this afternoon.  And you 
 10       indicated to me you could not do that.
 11             MR. GOLD:  Do you remember that
 12       Mr. Hernstadt was here all morning? 
 13             MR. GARBUS:  Yes, he was here all 
 14       morning.  He left when he had to prepare his 
 15       argument for court this afternoon.
 16             MR. GOLD:  So what came up this 
 17       morning that he wouldn't know about? 
 18             MR. GARBUS:  What came up this morning 
 19       that he would not know about is the whole 
 20       question of what documents were produced and 
 21       what questions were not produced. 
 22             In other words, your discussion 
 23       basically of this document, Plaintiffs' 
 24       First Request for Production of Documents, 
 25       which has fundamentally been in 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       Mr. Hernstadt's hand, came up after 
  3       Mr. Hernstadt left. 
  4             And you were making all kinds of 
  5       implications about what Mr. Hernstadt did do 
  6       or didn't do, and he should have knowledge --
  7             MR. GOLD:  I am very capable of saying 
  8       precisely what each of you have done if I 
  9       knew.  And you won't have any questions 
 10       about that if I actually have evidence that 
 11       something untoward took place.  You will 
 12       know that I am making that claim.  You won't 
 13       have to repute it. 
 14             MR. GARBUS:  Mr. Gold, this is kid 
 15       stuff.  It's just posturing. 
 16             MR. GOLD:  What options does one have 
 17       with you? 
 18             MR. GARBUS:  One always has the option 
 19       to be above it.
 20             MR. GOLD:  I am going to ask you, 
 21       Mr. Garbus, to specifically represent 
 22       whether you're going to turn those documents 
 23       that may not have been turned over to us 
 24       over to us tomorrow. 
 25             MR. GARBUS:  I will take it under 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       advisement. 
  3             MR. GOLD:  You won't tell me that you 
  4       will?
  5             MR. GARBUS:  No, of course.  I will 
  6       turn over to you, and I thought I made it 
  7       very clear, any document that comes within 
  8       the ambit of this request.  You have asked 
  9       for documents going back -- I will just go 
 10       down through it.  We will give you 
 11       absolutely everything --
 12             MR. GOLD:  When? 
 13             MR. GARBUS:  As soon as we can get it.  
 14       Now, to the extent --
 15             MR. GOLD:  Not tomorrow. 
 16             MR. GARBUS:  No, no.  To the extent 
 17       Mr. Hernstadt has it, you will get 
 18       everything by 9 o'clock or 10 o'clock 
 19       tomorrow before the deposition starts. 
 20             MR. GOLD:  Gee, I understand that.  
 21       Thank you. 
 22             MR. GARBUS:  To the extent that we 
 23       leave court early, you can get everything 
 24       that Mr. Hernstadt has by 6 o'clock.
 25             MR. GOLD:  I understand that also.

  1                  Goldstein
  2             MR. GARBUS:  This evening.
  3             MR. GOLD:  And thank you. 
  4             MR. GARBUS:  So that if we get out of 
  5       court at 5 o'clock, I would hope that 
  6       Mr. Hernstadt would come back to the office.  
  7       I do not know whether these documents are 
  8       Bates stamped or not.  All the documents 
  9       that the witness has referred to I presume 
 10       arrived while we were in California during 
 11       doing the deposition of Mr. Hoy.  I don't 
 12       know whether they have been Bates stamped or 
 13       not, but we'll make every attempt to Bates 
 14       stamp them and get them to you as soon as 
 15       feasibly possible. 
 16             MR. GOLD:  So maybe not tomorrow.
 17             MR. GARBUS:  Oh, no.  The question is 
 18       whether we get it to you tonight at 6, but 
 19       certainly by tomorrow morning.  To the 
 20       extent that we have them. 
 21             Now, my understanding is, I don't know 
 22       whether we have, given the breadth of your 
 23       requests, all of the documents that you're 
 24       referring to, but we will give to you 
 25       everything that we have.  Anything that came 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       from Mr. Goldstein to us, we will make sure 
  3       that you have. 
  4             Again, my understanding being that in 
  5       the previous motions we supplied you with 
  6       about 200 pages or 300 pages of the exact 
  7       same material you're seeking, including 
  8       those documents which Mr. Goldstein referred 
  9       to in his affidavit which you have on the 
 10       table and also the articles and editorials 
 11       that were written at 2600 dot-com, some of 
 12       which you have already used in a 
 13       cross-examination of Mr. Goldstein.  We have 
 14       also given you, as I understand it, copies 
 15       of The Hackers Quarterly sometime before 
 16       today. 
 17             MR. GOLD:  Is that one or two 
 18       sentences? 
 19             MR. GARBUS:  I stated it as one 
 20       sentence without commas.
 21             MR. GOLD:  Thank you. 
 22  BY MR. GOLD: 
 23       Q.    Mr. Goldstein, what hacks to your 
 24  knowledge has 2600 ever reported on? 
 25       A.    I am not sure what you mean by hacks. 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       Q.    You don't know what a hack is? 
  3             MR. GARBUS:  You define it differently 
  4       than he, Mr. Gold.
  5       Q.    How do you understand a hack?
  6       A.    There's all kinds of definitions.  If 
  7  you would be a little more specific, I can --
  8       Q.    I will try, sir.  Has 2600 ever reported 
  9  on a circumstance where a corporate or personal 
 10  computer site was gotten into by any individual?
 11       A.    Are we talking about a web page being 
 12  hacked? 
 13       Q.    Yes, to begin with.
 14       A.    Yes, we have reported on web pages being 
 15  hacked.
 16       Q.    Tell me which of those you remember.
 17       A.    Gosh.  Well, let's see.  There are a lot 
 18  of Chinese web pages that got hacked.  I remember 
 19  the Department of Justice was hacked a while ago.  
 20  NASA gets hacked every few months. 
 21             Basically quite a few companies that are 
 22  on the Net get hacked.  That means it's almost a 
 23  right of passage.  What we do, actually, we haven't 
 24  done it in a while, because we just don't have the 
 25  staff to keep up with it.  Other sites do a better 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  job.  But when a site gets hacked, someone notices 
  3  it, sends us mail and we capture it, we copy the 
  4  files and post it in our library.
  5       Q.    For what purpose?
  6       A.    To report on it.  To show people the 
  7  security failed.  This is what was put up on this 
  8  site.  What the motives are of people who do this 
  9  is not something we try and pass judgment on.  Some 
 10  people do it as a political statement.  Some people 
 11  do it because they are immature.  Some people have, 
 12  you know, nefarious purposes. 
 13             It's not our place to say this is done 
 14  for this particular reason.  We just show or we did 
 15  show what it looks like.  And if possible, how it 
 16  was done and what it was that failed. 
 17       Q.    And that's solely for the purpose of 
 18  letting people know that it happened?
 19       A.    Yes, it's a news story.  The mainstream 
 20  media does the same thing except they generally 
 21  like the technical detail and lots of times they 
 22  don't provide specifics, and there's a lot of 
 23  innuendo, a lot of, you know, hysteria that goes 
 24  along with those reports that we try to avoid.
 25       Q.    When you report on them do you ever post 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  an executable software utility?
  3       A.    No, that's not how it works on the web 
  4  page.  It's just a graphical file. 
  5       Q.    Do you ever post algorithms in 
  6  connection with those --
  7       A.    No.  
  8       Q.    -- instances? 
  9             Do you give any technical description of 
 10  those hacks?
 11       A.    If we receive technical information as 
 12  how it's done, yes, we provide that.
 13       Q.    Do you make any difference in your own 
 14  profession between journalism and civil 
 15  disobedience? 
 16             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form.
 17       A.    Yes, I think there are --
 18       Q.    What is the difference that you make?
 19       A.    Journalism is reporting on something 
 20  obviously.  Civil disobedience is taking a stand, a 
 21  nonviolent stand, against something that you think 
 22  is wrong. 
 23             It's a sad day if journalism and civil 
 24  disobedience becomes the same thing, but it has 
 25  happened in some countries.

  1                  Goldstein
  2       Q.    Do you remember ever writing in the 2600 
  3  publication that mirrors of DeCSS were a 
  4  demonstration of electronic civil disobedience?
  5       A.    Yes.
  6       Q.    What does that mean?
  7       A.    It basically means that despite the fact 
  8  that we're being threatened by all kinds of 
  9  powerful entities, for people, many of whom are 
 10  very small, poor people, individuals around the 
 11  world, for them to actually stand up and say this 
 12  is wrong and stand up against those entities, to me 
 13  that's an admirable thing. 
 14             To me that's basically putting your 
 15  beliefs in front of your personal safety, which is 
 16  what civil disobedience is.  It's lying down in 
 17  front of bulldozers.  It's blocking streets and 
 18  being arrested.  This is a case of electronic civil 
 19  disobedience where people say this is wrong and I 
 20  am going to put my site on the line because I 
 21  believe it's wrong.
 22       Q.    Does civil disobedience involve breaking 
 23  the law for a cause you consider just? 
 24             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to it.  Why 
 25       don't you take the -- well, you can't.  

  1                  Goldstein
  2       Civil disobedience is a very complex thing.  
  3       I will allow the witness to answer.  It is 
  4       clearly you're limited, your knowledge is so 
  5       limited.
  6             MR. GOLD:  Thank you so much, 
  7       Mr. Garbus.  That's very kind of you. 
  8             MR. GARBUS:  He also drew a 
  9       distinction between his role as a 
 10       journalist --
 11             MR. GOLD:  You're not testifying, 
 12       Mr. Garbus.
 13             MR. GARBUS:  -- and the whole question 
 14       of civil disobedience.
 15             MR. GOLD:  What about this question 
 16       bothers you so much? 
 17             MR. GARBUS:  Because you have no 
 18       awareness of what you're talking about.  It 
 19       is embarrassing.  I would think you'd be 
 20       embarrassed.
 21             MR. GOLD:  Go ahead, Mr. Goldstein.
 22             THE WITNESS:  I need to hear the 
 23       question again. 
 24             (A portion of the record was read.)
 25       A.    Yes, I believe so.  That's the 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  definition of civil disobedience.
  3       Q.    You understood my question, didn't you? 
  4  That's why you answered it? 
  5       A.    I am not going to take sides here. 
  6       Q.    Thank you, Mr. Goldstein. 
  7             Has 2600 received any benefit from being 
  8  a plaintiff in this action?
  9             MR. GARBUS:  Defendant.
 10             MR. GOLD:  Defendant, thank you. 
 11             MR. GARBUS:  They would like to be the 
 12       plaintiff.
 13       A.    Well, morally, yes.  We found many, 
 14  many people support us and it's been very 
 15  heartening to see that.  It's also been pretty 
 16  terrifying and sobering knowing what we're up 
 17  against.  So I would say there is a little of good 
 18  and bad.
 19       Q.    What are you up against?
 20       A.    We're up against some pretty powerful 
 21  entities.  For instance, when we have media people 
 22  who want to interview us, nine times out of ten it 
 23  turns out their parent company is suing us.  So it 
 24  is kind of hard to believe that fair stories will 
 25  be written in cases like that.

  1                  Goldstein
  2       Q.    Have any unfair stories been written 
  3  about you?
  4       A.    Yes, quite a few.
  5       Q.    In what publication?
  6       A.    I am thinking of specifically MTV, which 
  7  is owned by Viacom, did a really bad piece.  That 
  8  was last year.  That was before this all happened.  
  9  It is something we're used to.  We're used to bad 
 10  media because they don't understand the issues and 
 11  because they want the sensation of headlines saying 
 12  hackers can do anything.  They don't do the 
 13  research. 
 14             We have had had some very good pieces as 
 15  well.  We've had a good piece in the Village Voice, 
 16  The New York Times.  So it's worth the risk because 
 17  I think we do get some reporters that understand 
 18  what is going on.
 19       Q.    Do you believe hackers can do 
 20  everything?
 21       A.    No.  No.  
 22       Q.    Didn't you say that any protective code 
 23  would be uncovered, discovered, undone by hackers?
 24       A.    Yes.  Hackers can figure things out, but 
 25  it takes time.  It doesn't mean they can do 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  anything.  It means that if a particular form of 
  3  technology very often written by hackers can 
  4  eventually be figured out, undone, defeated.
  5       Q.    So the terrifying instances you're 
  6  talking about are instances where newspapers write 
  7  some story about you?
  8       A.    No.  No.  
  9             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.  You misstated 
 10       the witness's testimony.
 11       A.    The terrifying things are facing this 
 12  kind of a lawsuit, knowing that everything we've 
 13  worked for over the past fifteen or so years can be 
 14  unraveled this easily and that so much time and 
 15  effort can be spent on this and our progress can be 
 16  slowed down to nothing. 
 17       Q.    When was the anticircumvention provision 
 18  enacted into law, if you know? 
 19             MR. GARBUS:  Objection. 
 20       Q.    Was it fifteen or ten years ago?
 21       A.    No.  
 22       Q.    Is it true that you're terrified by the 
 23  fact that some companies have brought a lawsuit 
 24  against you alleging that you violated their 
 25  rights?

  1                  Goldstein
  2       A.    It's the might that's focussing on us 
  3  that's terrifying.  Not what they say we've done.  
  4  Because obviously we don't believe we have done 
  5  anything wrong.
  6       Q.    What has that might done to you other 
  7  than file a lawsuit?
  8       A.    It's a psychological thing.  It's 
  9  knowing that everything -- that so many entities 
 10  are controlled by these eight companies, and for 
 11  instance, we had problems with a bank because they 
 12  had changed their policy towards Internet sales, 
 13  which we've started to get involved in, and the way 
 14  that they suddenly decided that we were a risk to 
 15  them made us wonder was one of these eight 
 16  companies behind it. 
 17             It was very easy to find links between 
 18  them and the eight companies because these eight 
 19  companies are linked to everybody.  So it's a 
 20  psychological thing in that every time something 
 21  bad happens, you wonder.  Is it because of -- who 
 22  are these powerful people?  We all watch the 
 23  movies.  We all know what kind of evil things can 
 24  go on.  So your imagination can run away with you 
 25  sometimes, but a lot of times it's accurate.

  1                  Goldstein
  2       Q.    Some of us read newspapers and find out 
  3  what terrible thing have gone on?
  4             MR. GARBUS:  Is that a question, 
  5       Mr. Gold, or is that a statement? 
  6       Q.    Isn't it a fact that some of us go to 
  7  movies and find out that hackers have done terrible 
  8  things, if we believe what the movie has portrayed?
  9       A.    If you believe what the movies portray 
 10  about hackers, there is not much I can say, really.
 11       Q.    Who knows the truth about hackers other 
 12  than you?  
 13             MR. GARBUS:  Object to the form of the 
 14       question.  Direct the witness not to answer.  
 15       Go ahead, Mr. Gold. 
 16             THE WITNESS:  Not to answer or to 
 17       answer? 
 18             MR. GARBUS:  Answer.
 19             THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry.  Can you 
 20       repeat the question?
 21       A.    I don't think there is a truth.  I 
 22  think there are elements of truth and I think I 
 23  have got a few of those elements.  I think a lot of 
 24  people in the hacker community have a few of those 
 25  elements.  And unfortunately, I believe a lot of 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  the media doesn't really want to get the true 
  3  story.  They have written the story before they 
  4  actually interview the people.
  5       Q.    Is it true that some of the people 
  6  believe that of you?
  7       A.    Oh, I am sure some people do.
  8       Q.    It depends on which side of the matter 
  9  you are on.
 10       A.    It depends on what they believe when 
 11  they read, absolutely. 
 12       Q.    Paragraph 13 of your May 3 declaration.
 13             (Handing.)
 14             MR. GOLD:  Can you mark this as the 
 15       next exhibit, sir.
 16             (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 5, Declaration of 
 17       Emmanuel Goldstein, marked for
 18       identification, as of this date.)
 19             THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  The time is 2:50 p.m. 
 20       We're going off the record. 
 21             (A recess was taken.) 
 22             THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  The time is 
 23       2:52 p.m.  We're back on the record. 
 24  By MR. GOLD: 
 25       Q.    Is it true, sir, that you stated on the 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  record a short while ago that you believed some 
  3  bank you were trying to open an account in wouldn't 
  4  do it, then you believed that was because they were 
  5  owned by or connected to one of the plaintiffs? 
  6             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.  He didn't 
  7       state that.
  8             MR. GOLD:  Why don't you let your 
  9       witness answer.
 10       Q.    Did you say it?
 11       A.    I stated that we had problems with a 
 12  bank and we in our minds had to wonder if that was 
 13  caused because of an affiliation.  In other words, 
 14  any bad thing that happens to us, we have to 
 15  wonder.  You know, is there a connection?  Because 
 16  there are definitely connections.  A lot of these 
 17  corporations are linked together and it's something 
 18  to definitely be worried about.  It's a 
 19  psychological thing. 
 20       Q.    And you say that -- you're serious about 
 21  this, I gather -- that anything bad that happens to 
 22  you since this suit was started you believe is the 
 23  fault of the movie companies? 
 24             MR. GARBUS:  I will object.  It's not 
 25       what the witness said.  You're just 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       misstating it.  He's been the subject of the 
  3       press where he has been vilified.  How can 
  4       that not have a consequence or effect with 
  5       these banks?
  6       Q.    Do you want to repeat what Mr. Garbus 
  7  said?   Now that he's told you what to say.
  8       A.    It's basically we investigated and found 
  9  that there was no truth to that.  But what I was 
 10  trying to convey is that there is a psychological 
 11  thing that goes on when you have all these powerful 
 12  enemies and, you know, it's -- it wouldn't be 
 13  untrue to say that you become a little bit paranoid 
 14  and you start to worry about things that, you know, 
 15  you wouldn't ordinarily worry about.  That's what I 
 16  considered to be the scary part of this.  And of 
 17  course I'm not saying that there aren't real 
 18  threats out there.  I am sure there are. 
 19       Q.    What are they?
 20       A.    I am sure this has had an effect on the 
 21  fairness of the media coverage that we get.
 22       Q.    Why are you sure of that, sir?
 23       A.    Because that's the nature.  If a 
 24  particular media outlet is owned by a different 
 25  corporation, of course on the record they will say 

  1                  Goldstein
  2  that there's no effect.  That ownership has no 
  3  effect. 
  4             But I think it has been proven time and 
  5  again that ownership of media outlets does 
  6  definitely have an effect.  For instance, ABC is 
  7  owned by Disney and has recently been accused of 
  8  not airing stories that are critical of Disney, 
  9  even though it was said at the time of Disney's 
 10  takeover there would be no effect on news.
 11             When Time Warner purchased CNN, again it 
 12  was said there would be no effects, and I have 
 13  heard allegations that there are.  It's a common 
 14  practice when corporations take over other 
 15  corporation that there is some influence.
 16             So when you're dealing with things like 
 17  the media, which I believe should be independent of 
 18  all this, it's inevitable.  It's rather sad because 
 19  I think the American people wind up losing.
 20             MR. GARBUS:  On that note, 
 21       Mr. Gold, --
 22             MR. GOLD:  Don't confuse me.  I am 
 23       good, but I am not that good.
 24             MR. GARBUS:  We can discuss that at a 
 25       later time, but it is now approaching 

  1                  Goldstein
  2       3 o'clock.  Should we take our break? 
  3             MR. GOLD:  Sure. 
  4             MR. GARBUS:  And tomorrow morning at 
  5       10? 
  6             MR. GOLD:  Yes. 
  7             THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  The time is 2:55 
  8       p.m. of the videotape deposition of 
  9       Mr. Emmanuel Goldstein.  This completes tape 
 10       number 2.
 11             (Time noted:  2:55 p.m.)
 13                         ____________________
 14                          EMMANUEL GOLDSTEIN
 16  Subscribed and sworn to before me
 17  this ___ day of __________, 2000.
 19  _________________________________ 

  2                C E R T I F I C A T E
  4                       : ss.  
  7             I, THOMAS R. NICHOLS, a Notary Public 
  8       within and for the State of New York, do 
  9       hereby certify:
 10             That EMMANUEL GOLDSTEIN, the witness 
 11       whose deposition is hereinbefore set forth, 
 12       was duly sworn by me and that such 
 13       deposition is a true record of the testimony 
 14       given by the witness.
 15             I further certify that I am not 
 16       related to any of the parties to this action 
 17       by blood or marriage, and that I am in no 
 18       way interested in the outcome of this 
 19       matter.
 20             IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto 
 21       set my hand this 28th day of June, 2000.
 24                              _____________________
 25                                THOMAS R. NICHOLS

  3  ------------------- I N D E X-------------------
  5  ------------- INFORMATION REQUESTS -------------
  7  REQUESTS:  93, 108, 121
  9  -------------------- EXHIBITS------------------- 
 10  PLAINTIFFS'                                 FOR ID.     
 11      1       Piece of paper with the letters      28
                 DeCSS written on it
         2       Spring 2000 issue of 2600, The       48 
 13              Hacker Quarterly, magazine 
 14      3       Document headed "2600/News Archive,  76 
                 Page 1 of 2
         4       Copy of plaintiffs first request     94 
 16              for production of documents 
 17      5       Declaration of Emmanuel Goldstein   158

  9                                      )
                      PlaintiffS,        )00 Civ. 277
 10                                      )(LAK)(RLE)
                   vs.                   )
 11                                      )
 12  A/K/A "EMMANUEL GOLDSTEIN";         ) 
     ROMAN KAZAN; AND 2600               )
 13  ENTERPRISES, INC.                   )
 14                   Defendant.         )
 18                 EMMANUEL GOLDSTEIN
 19                 New York, New York
 20              Wednesday, June 28, 2000
 24  Reported by:
     Thomas R. Nichols, RPR
 25  JOB NO. 110289

  7                        June 28, 2000
  8                        10:20 a.m.
 10             Continued videotaped deposition of  
 11       EMMANUEL GOLDSTEIN, held at the offices 
 12       of Proskauer Rose LLP, 1585 Broadway, 
 13       New York, New York, pursuant to Notice,
 14       before Thomas R. Nichols, a Registered 
 15       Professional Reporter and a Notary Public 
 16       of the State of New York. 

  2  A P P E A R A N C E S:
  5       Attorneys for Plaintiffs
  6             1585 Broadway
  7             New York, New York 10036-8299
  8       BY:   LEON GOLD, ESQ.
  9             DAVID KRULWICH, ESQ.
 10                 -and-
 12             15503 Ventura Boulevard
 13             Encino, California 91436
 14       BY:   MARK D. LITVACK, ESQ.
 17       Attorneys for Defendants
 18             488 Madison Avenue
 19             New York, New York 10022
 20       BY:   MARTIN GARBUS, ESQ.

  1                     Goldstein 
  2             THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  The time is 10:16 
  3       a.m. on June 28, 2000, and this is tape 
  4       number 3 of the continuation deposition of 
  5       Mr. Emmanuel Goldstein. 
  6  E M M A N U E L   G O L D S T E I N ,  resumed as a 
  7       witness, having been previously sworn by the 
  8       Notary Public, was examined and testified  
  9       further as follows:
 10  EXAMINATION BY (Cont'd.)
 11  MR. GOLD: 
 12       Q.    Mr. Goldstein, just to remind you, you 
 13  are not being sworn in again, but you are under 
 14  oath. 
 15             Has 2600 obtained any donations as a 
 16  result of this case?
 17       A.    Not donations.  It's hard to say, but I 
 18  am sure we have gotten people to subscribe, buy a 
 19  hat, buy a T-shirt, whatever it is that we sell, 
 20  but no donations per se. 
 21       Q.    Do you have a retainer agreement with 
 22  Mr. Garbus's firm?
 23             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to it.  Go 
 24       ahead.
 25       A.    Our legal team is paid for by the 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  Electronic Frontier Foundation.  So all financial 
  3  information would go through them. 
  4       Q.    The Electronic Frontier Foundation is 
  5  paying whatever fees are being paid on the case?
  6       A.    That's right. 
  7       Q.    Do you know anything -- let me ask you 
  8  again.  Did you make any agreement that you know of 
  9  with Mr. Garbus or his firm with respect to what 
 10  you were retaining Mr. Garbus for or how you were 
 11  paying Mr. Garbus?  And I mean his firm.
 12       A.    The only agreement I made with 
 13  Mr. Garbus is that he is my attorney, he is 
 14  representing me, he is working for me. 
 15       Q.    Did you agree to pay fees?
 16       A.    The fees, as I said, are being covered 
 17  by Electronic Frontier Foundation.
 18       Q.    As far as you know, that was an 
 19  agreement between Mr. Garbus and the Electronic 
 20  Frontier Foundation?
 21       A.    Yes.
 22       Q.    Is either your agreement or their 
 23  agreement in writing?
 24       A.    I would imagine so. 
 25             MR. GARBUS:  I would object to this 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       line of inquiry.  If the judge requires us 
  3       to answer, we'll certainly answer. 
  4             MR. GOLD:  Are you, sir, directing 
  5       your witness not to answer any questions 
  6       about the --
  7             MR. GARBUS:  No.  I think you ought 
  8       not to ask it, but I am not directing him 
  9       not to answer.
 10       Q.    Has the Electronic Frontier Foundation 
 11  sent out any E-mails requesting contributions?
 12       A.    I believe EFF always sends out E-mails 
 13  requesting contributions, but not just E-mails, but 
 14  they have a web site.  They have a paper 
 15  publication.  They have fund-raising events of 
 16  various sorts.
 17       Q.    Did they publish any material on their 
 18  web site or have any communications in which they 
 19  solicited contributions to the defense of this 
 20  case?
 21       A.    I couldn't say for sure.
 22             MR. GARBUS:  Then don't speculate.
 23       A.    Specifically --
 24             MR. GARBUS:  Don't speculate.
 25       A.    I don't know specifically. 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       Q.    You don't know one way or the other.
  3       A.    No.  
  4  RQ         MR. GOLD:  Mr. Garbus, I do request any 
  5       written material relating to any agreements 
  6       with Electronic Frontier Foundation relating 
  7       to this case. 
  8             MR. GARBUS:  I will take it under 
  9       advisement. 
 10       Q.    Do you have any documents relating to 
 11  the Electronic Frontier Foundation?  I don't mean 
 12  E-mail communications you see by computer, but any 
 13  documents at all relating to the Electronic 
 14  Frontier Foundation?
 15       A.    No.  
 16       Q.    Have you ever broken into a computer 
 17  that doesn't belong to you? 
 18             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.
 19       A.    In the past, in the 1980s, yes.
 20       Q.    How many times?
 21       A.    I don't know a specific number of times. 
 22             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question. 
 23       Q.    More than ten?
 24       A.    Probably. 
 25       Q.    Do you remember who owned any of the 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  computers you broke into?
  3             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.
  4       A.    The computers were all owned by the 
  5  company I mentioned yesterday, Telenet. 
  6       Q.    A telephone company?
  7       A.    No, it's -- it was a communications 
  8  company.  I believe they later merged with GTE.
  9       Q.    And all of the computers as far as you 
 10  remember that you broke into were owned by them?
 11       A.    Yes. 
 12       Q.    You have never broken into anyone else's 
 13  computer --
 14       A.    No.
 15       Q.    -- in the nineties. 
 16       A.    Oh, no.  
 17       Q.    For what purpose did you break into 
 18  their computers?
 19             MR. GARBUS:  I presume, Mr. Gold, to 
 20       save time I have a continuing objection to 
 21       the entire line of questioning.
 22             MR. GOLD:  Yes, sir. 
 23       A.    Back then I was just curious.  It was 
 24  new technology. 
 25       Q.    Why break into their computers rather 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  than Bell Telephone or the Pentagon computers or 
  3  government computers?  Why did you choose them?
  4       A.    This was before the Net was actually a 
  5  very popular thing.  This was kind of the early 
  6  days.  So people were still feeling around.  And as 
  7  I mentioned yesterday, they had a one-letter 
  8  password, so it wasn't exactly difficult. 
  9             I should stress that it caused no harm.  
 10  All we used it for was communicating amongst 
 11  friends.  I explained everything and helped their 
 12  security system become stronger as a result.
 13       Q.    But didn't you take material from their 
 14  computer that could be used by yourself or other 
 15  people to make free telephone calls?
 16       A.    No.  There was no such material, no.
 17       Q.    What did you find in there that you 
 18  took?
 19             MR. GARBUS:  Object to the form of the 
 20       question.
 21       A.    We didn't take anything.  It was a 
 22  computer.  We didn't have computers back then.  It 
 23  was something to explore, something -- something to 
 24  learn about.  We learned how it worked.  We 
 25  communicated amongst ourselves, and that's the 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  extent of it.  
  3             MR. GOLD:  This is Exhibit 5.
  4             (Handing.)
  5       Q.    If, Mr. Goldstein, if you could turn to 
  6  page 4, paragraph 13. 
  7       A.    Yes. 
  8       Q.    The first line of that paragraph states, 
  9  quote, "While I don't practice or condone breaking 
 10  into computer systems," and the sentence goes on 
 11  from there. 
 12             Is that true?
 13       A.    Yes. 
 14       Q.    You mean it's true for the nineties, but 
 15  not for the eighties.
 16       A.    That's a present tense sentence.
 17       Q.    It's a present tense.  So in other 
 18  words, you did at one time in your life practice 
 19  and condone breaking into computers; is that true?
 20             MR. GARBUS:  Object to the form of the 
 21       question.
 22       A.    I wouldn't go so far as to say I 
 23  condoned, encouraged other people to do anything.  
 24  I have made mistakes of my own in the past, and I 
 25  have learned from them and moved on.

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       Q.    When you used the word "condoned" in 
  3  your answer, what did it mean to you?
  4       A.    On this line here?  Encourage people --
  5       Q.    In your answer you used the word --
  6       A.    My meaning of the word "condone" was to 
  7  encourage people to do something. 
  8       Q.    And you never encouraged anybody to 
  9  break into that company's security system?
 10       A.    No.  I didn't encourage people to do 
 11  that and I haven't encouraged people to do anything 
 12  like that since. 
 13       Q.    And you just did it yourself back in the 
 14  eighties.
 15       A.    Yes.  And met other people who had found 
 16  the same hole that I had found.
 17       Q.    The next sentence, which is the last 
 18  line on page 4, begins on the last line on page 4, 
 19  says, "Through the magazine and the radio program, 
 20  I try to instill a sense of responsibility in those 
 21  who may consider doing such things, so that they 
 22  carefully think about their actions and don't cause 
 23  any damages."
 24             Are you referring to specific magazine 
 25  articles or editorials? 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2             MR. GARBUS:  I object to it.  The 
  3       sentence speaks for itself.  There is no 
  4       reference there to particular articles.  It 
  5       is a sentence in an affidavit.  I don't 
  6       think it requires interpretation.  I object 
  7       to the form.  I don't see any reference to 
  8       any other magazine article.
  9       A.    It's a general statement about the 
 10  magazine.  Not any specific article. 
 11       Q.    Did you ever write anything for the 
 12  magazine where you tried to instill a sense of 
 13  responsibility in people who may consider breaking 
 14  into computers so they think about their actions?
 15       A.    We try to get people to think about 
 16  their actions before they do something, such as 
 17  break into a computer, and hopefully not do 
 18  something like that.
 19       Q.    My question to you is, do you remember 
 20  writing any, and if you don't remember, just tell 
 21  me, do you remember writing any editorials or 
 22  stories where you told people in so many words, 
 23  don't break into computers? 
 24             MR. GARBUS:  Mr. Goldstein, do you 
 25       want to look through some magazines that we 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       have here?
  3       A.    I can say that that's something that I 
  4  have said.  I can't point to a specific article, 
  5  but I know that's a viewpoint that I've expressed.  
  6  People shouldn't break into computers for various 
  7  reasons.
  8       Q.    I am going to ask you to identify the 
  9  article or editorial that you wrote for the 2600 
 10  publication which says that and leave a space in 
 11  the answer for you to do so.
 12  TO BE FURNISHED: _________________________________
 13  __________________________________________________.
 14             MR. GARBUS:  Excuse me.  Did we make 
 15       clear to you that we brought some additional 
 16       copies? 
 17             MR. GOLD:  This morning? 
 18             MR. GARBUS:  Yes. 
 19             MR. GOLD:  But heavens, if I read them 
 20       it will take me for the rest --
 21             MR. GARBUS:  Let the record indicate I 
 22       think that we are giving you 21 additional 
 23       copies. 
 24             MR. GOLD:  I thank you.  I think that 
 25       also responds to my specific request 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       yesterday for all copies of the magazine.
  3       Q.    And I gather that's the ones you 
  4  readily found.
  5       A.    Those are the ones in your initial 
  6  request.  There is another stack coming today 
  7  FedEx.  You should have that. 
  8       Q.    Thank you.  I appreciate that. 
  9             MR. GARBUS:  Off the record. 
 10             (Discussion off the record.) 
 11       Q.    The last sentence in paragraph 13, which 
 12  is contained on page 5, says, "I also try to 
 13  instill a sense of reality into the mainstream so 
 14  that the actions of such people are judged in a 
 15  more even-handed way and so that people aren't sent 
 16  to prison for relatively minor offenses."  
 17             What were the relatively minor offenses 
 18  you had in mind in that sentence?
 19       A.    Offenses that don't cause any kind of 
 20  damage, that don't cause any kind of financial 
 21  loss.
 22       Q.    Who, as you understood it when you wrote 
 23  this, who was going to make the judgment of whether 
 24  or not it caused damage or financial loss?
 25       A.    A court of law.  Inside a court of law.  

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  If no damage is found. 
  3       Q.    But a court of law doesn't get into it 
  4  until the computer is broken into and sometimes not 
  5  even then.  In other words --
  6             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question. 
  7       Q.    Again, I am trying to find out which are 
  8  the relatively minor offenses that you had in mind?
  9       A.    They're all kinds of relatively minor 
 10  offenses. 
 11       Q.    Yes.  And some major offenses.
 12       A.    Such as hacking a web page for instance 
 13  and changing a single file, but leaving the 
 14  original.  That's just one example. 
 15       Q.    Do you consider circumventing a 
 16  protective device that protects digital 
 17  intellectual property a minor offense? 
 18             MR. GARBUS:  I object to it.
 19       A.    That is a very general question.  And I 
 20  am not a lawyer, so I can't really....
 21       Q.    Well, I didn't ask you to give a legal 
 22  answer.  I am asking you, sir, whether you consider 
 23  now the circumvention of a protective device that 
 24  protects digital electronic property to be a minor 
 25  offense. 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2             MR. GARBUS:  I object to it.  He has 
  3       already testified that he is not a lawyer 
  4       and he doesn't know what the statutes 
  5       provide for that kind of conduct.  
  6       Q.    I am just asking, sir, if you consider 
  7  it to be a minor offense.  Do you have an answer? 
  8       A.    Again, I think it's a very general 
  9  question.
 10       Q.    I know.  Do you have a general answer?
 11             MR. GARBUS:  Just say you can't 
 12       answer.
 13       A.    I can't answer
 14  MO         MR. GOLD:  I know it's kind of 
 15       old-fashioned, Mr. Garbus, but I really do 
 16       object to a lawyer telling his witness what 
 17       to say.  You can make an objection to the 
 18       question if you want to.  I suppose you can 
 19       direct him not to answer so we have to take 
 20       it to the court.  But I think the one thing 
 21       you can't do is say, quote, just say you 
 22       don't know. 
 23             MR. GARBUS:  He has already said that.
 24             MR. GOLD:  Yes, I don't think that's 
 25       right.  I am a little old-fashioned, and if 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       it happens again I am going to take it to 
  3       the court.  And I don't want to do that.  So 
  4       I am pleading with you. 
  5             MR. GARBUS:  OK. 
  6       Q.    Have you ever watched a decrypted movie?
  7       A.    I have never watched a DVD if that's 
  8  what you're asking. 
  9       Q.    Have you ever watched a decrypted DVD?
 10       A.    No.  
 11       Q.    Do you believe there are a few bad 
 12  hackers? 
 13             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 
 14       the question.
 15       A.    I believe any group has bad people, yes. 
 16       Q.    How would you define "bad hackers"?
 17       A.    I would define bad hackers as people who 
 18  don't subscribe to the overall philosophy of 
 19  causing no harm, not intruding on people's privacy, 
 20  not violating the laws.  General common sense 
 21  things.
 22       Q.    Those people are good hackers?
 23       A.    Those are bad hackers, people who 
 24  violate those particular values which are part of 
 25  the hacker world. 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       Q.    Am I correct that traffic to 2600 on the 
  3  Internet has substantially increased since the 
  4  beginning of this lawsuit?
  5       A.    It's -- as I said, we don't keep logs, 
  6  so it's difficult to say for sure.  I would imagine 
  7  it has.  But it's really -- we don't sell anything 
  8  on our web site.  We don't have advertisements 
  9  there, so there's no real advantage to us to have, 
 10  say, 50,000 people instead of 30,000 people a day.
 11       Q.    Well, tell us where the income, if any, 
 12  that 2600 has comes from?
 13       A.    Everything comes from the magazine or 
 14  the things that we sell, such as T-shirts and hats.
 15       Q.    When you say "everything comes from the 
 16  magazine," do you mean the hard copy magazine?
 17       A.    Yes, the hard copy magazine.  We make 
 18  nothing off the web site.
 19       Q.    What is the amount of your subscription 
 20  in dollar terms to you?
 21       A.    I don't readily have that information in 
 22  my head.  I know that our circulation is around 
 23  65,000 per issue. 
 24       Q.    And you sell one-year subscriptions?
 25       A.    One-year.  We sell one-year, two-year, 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  three-year subscriptions. 
  3       Q.    For how much?
  4       A.    $18 for a year in the United States.  
  5       Q.    Is it your understanding that movies are 
  6  now capable of being transmitted over the Internet?
  7       A.    No.  
  8       Q.    You don't know that.
  9       A.    No, it's my understanding that that's 
 10  not possible.
 11       Q.    Not possible?
 12       A.    At the current -- the current standing 
 13  in time, no, that's not possible. 
 14       Q.    Where did you get that?  What do you 
 15  know that causes you to say that?
 16       A.    Band width issues.  It would take an 
 17  incredible amount of band width to transmit a movie 
 18  in any viable form.  Just an incredible amount of 
 19  time. 
 20       Q.    What other information do you possess 
 21  that leads you to the conclusion that you gave me 
 22  in your last answer, the answer that you gave to 
 23  the question I asked you?
 24       A.    Just knowledge of that technical ability 
 25  or lack thereof, and watching developments on the 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  Net.  Transmitting of video material on the Net is, 
  3  if anything, in its infancy.  A long way off.
  4       Q.    Why does the current state of band 
  5  widths available make it impossible to transmit 
  6  movies on the Internet?
  7       A.    Well, a movie, using a DVD as an 
  8  example, would be something on the order of I 
  9  believe 12, 13 gigabytes of data, and I don't have 
 10  a calculator handy, I don't know if I could do the 
 11  math, but most people today in certainly 
 12  residential situations rarely exceed a 56K modem. 
 13             DSL is still pretty much in its infancy, 
 14  especially around here.  And to transmit something 
 15  of that size would take an incredible -- we're 
 16  talking days, if not weeks.  And economically it 
 17  doesn't make any sense either.  So technologically, 
 18  economically, it's fantasy.
 19       Q.    So it just doesn't happen.  Movies are 
 20  not transmitted over the Internet.
 21       A.    Not that I'm aware of. 
 22       Q.    Did you ever hear of IRC channels?
 23       A.    Yes.
 24       Q.    What are they are?
 25       A.    Internet relay chat.  That's a way 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  people communicate back and forth.
  3       Q.    Are there movies transmitted over IRC 
  4  channels?
  5       A.    I can't imagine.  I know there are some 
  6  Internet relay chat channels where people transmit 
  7  still images, you know, pictures, various pictures 
  8  of themselves, whatever.  That's about the extent 
  9  of how far that's developed.  I can't imagine them 
 10  transmitting movies over something like that. 
 11             MR. GARBUS:  Are we talking about 
 12       movies that come off DVDs or camcorders or 
 13       any movies of any kind?  I'm just not clear.
 14             MR. GOLD:  I asked him if any movies 
 15       of any kind were.
 16       Q.    Your answer wouldn't be different, would 
 17  it?
 18       A.    If you're talking about a 3-second 
 19  movie, maybe it would be a little different.  I 
 20  assume you're talking about commercial films and I 
 21  have never heard of a case like that.
 22       Q.    Well, I am talking about movies that 
 23  certainly exceed an hour in duration.
 24       A.    My answer stands.
 25       Q.    Was your understanding of the current 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  state of technology with respect to band widths and 
  3  your understanding that movies are not being 
  4  transmitted over the Internet one of the reasons 
  5  you posted DeCSS? 
  6             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to that.
  7       A.    No, it's not related to that.  We posted 
  8  DeCSS as journalists. 
  9       Q.    So is it true that you would have posted 
 10  DeCSS regardless of whether band widths were very 
 11  developed or movies were being transmitted over the 
 12  Internet?
 13       A.    It's not related to that issue.  In 
 14  fact, it's not even related to transmitting videos 
 15  or copying or anything like that.
 16       Q.    So your answer is yes.
 17       A.    Yes, it's an encryption issue. 
 18       Q.    What do you know of the current state of 
 19  technological improvement with respect to band 
 20  widths, making them available to the general public 
 21  at lower and lower prices?
 22             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 
 23       the question.  I ask the witness not to 
 24       speculate about things he doesn't know 
 25       about.

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       A.    I know a bare minimal amount. 
  3       Q.    Let's hear it, if we may.
  4       A.    Things are advancing slowly.  We're 
  5  slowly moving into DSL.  Which basically gives 
  6  subscribers more than 56K access, speeds 
  7  approaching cable modems.  Still not nearly enough 
  8  to transmit anything as complex as a video with 
  9  sound.
 10       Q.    Who told you that?
 11       A.    Nobody told me this.  It's common 
 12  knowledge.  This is what I get from reading 
 13  magazines in this industry and basically 
 14  communicating with people. 
 15       Q.    Did you read all of the affidavits 
 16  submitted by your counsel in this case?  There were 
 17  about 18 or 20 of them.  Most of them from alleged 
 18  experts.
 19       A.    I can't say I've read every word of all 
 20  of them, but I definitely read some of them.  A 
 21  good part of them.
 22       Q.    Do any of them say that movies can be 
 23  transmitted over the Internet?
 24       A.    I wasn't aware of any of them saying in 
 25  the present movies can be transmitted over the 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  Internet, no.  
  3       Q.    Do you know of any ongoing efforts right 
  4  now to make DSL available to whole communities at a 
  5  time?
  6       A.    No, I don't. 
  7       Q.    Are DSLs available in every college 
  8  campus in the United States?
  9       A.    No, I don't believe DSL is marketed to 
 10  campuses.  I think they use what is known as a T-1 
 11  or basically whatever the campus uses. 
 12       Q.    Those are broadband.
 13             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 
 14       the question. 
 15       Q.    Are those broadband?
 16       A.    I don't believe so, no.  I don't believe 
 17  colleges are either. 
 18       Q.    Is cable modem available, are cable 
 19  modems available in Manhattan today on the Time 
 20  Warner cable?
 21       A.    I don't know about Time Warner.  I know 
 22  RCN offers them.
 23       Q.    What are they as you understand it?
 24       A.    I can't give you an exact speed, but 
 25  basically they allow you access to the Internet at 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  higher speeds if there aren't people in your 
  3  immediate loop, meaning your neighbors who also 
  4  have cable modems.  With every person that uses a 
  5  cable modem in your area, your speed is reduced by 
  6  half.
  7       Q.    If you have a cable modem that works, 
  8  can movies be transmitted on that cable modem?
  9       A.    It can -- it will still take a very long 
 10  time. 
 11       Q.    How long?
 12       A.    A movie can be transmitted on a 300-baud 
 13  modem, but it would take a year to do it.  It is 
 14  not practical.  It makes no sense.  It's completely 
 15  uneconomical if you're looking to save money or 
 16  something like that.  And cable modems are not very 
 17  fast either.
 18       Q.    Are you familiar at all with what the 
 19  expert affidavits submitted in your behalf in this 
 20  case say about the amount of time it would take to 
 21  transfer a movie?
 22       A.    I don't have the number in my head.
 23       Q.    Or to copy a movie?
 24       A.    I don't have that number in my head 
 25  either.

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       Q.    Do you know they said it was possible to 
  3  transmit and copy movies that have been decrypted?
  4             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to your 
  5       statement.  If you want to show him the 
  6       affidavit, then I think that's the 
  7       appropriate --
  8       Q.    Do you recall any such statement?
  9       A.    I don't recall that, but I would like to 
 10  see it. 
 11       Q.    Do you know whether or not there are 
 12  hundreds of movies being transmitted between people 
 13  having access to IRC channels on a daily basis?
 14       A.    No, I never heard of a single one.
 15       Q.    Have you heard that there are thousands 
 16  of such things go on --
 17       A.    No.  
 18       Q.    -- on a daily basis?
 19             You never heard of any such thing.
 20       A.    No.  
 21       Q.    Does the expression "compression 
 22  technology" have any meaning to you?
 23       A.    Compression technology?  It has some 
 24  meaning to me.
 25       Q.    What is that?

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       A.    It's basically a method of compressing 
  3  data so that it becomes somewhat smaller and can be 
  4  transmitted faster. 
  5       Q.    Well, if you have a two-hour movie do 
  6  you have any idea how long -- how much it can be 
  7  reduced by using compression technology?
  8       A.    My understanding is it would not be 
  9  significant, if at all.
 10       Q.    What do you mean by significant?
 11       A.    Anything greater than, say, 5 percent, I 
 12  couldn't -- I am aware that it cannot be 
 13  compressed.
 14       Q.    Who told you that?
 15       A.    Again, this is general knowledge.  I am 
 16  not an engineer, so I can't point to a specific 
 17  source, but it's my general understanding that 
 18  that's not a viable means of transmitting large 
 19  files of that nature.
 20       Q.    Can you give us any clue as to where you 
 21  obtained this knowledge?
 22       A.    Again, just through general 
 23  conversations, reading publications.  I can't point 
 24  to a specific source, no, I'm sorry.
 25       Q.    Is it true that illegal copying has 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  nothing to do with DeCSS?
  3       A.    Yes.  That's true. 
  4       Q.    What do you understand is illegal 
  5  copying?
  6       A.    Making a copy of something that you are 
  7  not authorized to make a copy of.
  8       Q.    What is your understanding of the word 
  9  "copy"?
 10       A.    To make a duplicate of. 
 11       Q.    Is it your belief that copying a file 
 12  isn't the same thing as taking it?
 13             MR. GARBUS:  Object.
 14       A.    While not legal, it is different from 
 15  stealing, because when you steal something it is no 
 16  longer in the place you took it from.  So yes, I do 
 17  believe there is a difference.
 18       Q.    Are there other differences?
 19       A.    That's the only difference I can think 
 20  of.
 21       Q.    Tell me the difference between stealing 
 22  a book by taking it or stealing a book by running a 
 23  full copy of it off and taking the copy. 
 24             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question.  
 25       I object to the witness being asked to 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       speculate.  I think that the judge yesterday 
  3       had difficulty with my speculations. 
  4             MR. GOLD:  I am not asking -- I don't 
  5       want the witness to speculate either.
  6             MR. GARBUS:  The witness is not a 
  7       lawyer and you should indicate, should 
  8       really indicate, the legal consequences -- 
  9  MO         MR. GOLD:  I think you're telling him 
 10       how to testify.  I don't know how much I can 
 11       beg to stop it so we don't have these petty 
 12       things before the judge.
 13             MR. GARBUS:  I object to it.
 14       A.    I believe if you are copying something 
 15  and the original is still there, it's not as -- 
 16  it's not the same thing as taking the original so 
 17  that nobody else can access it.  I am not saying it 
 18  is right.  It is very definitely wrong., but it's 
 19  not the same thing.  It is apples and oranges. 
 20       Q.    I see.  Thank you. 
 21             Do you believe that when a hacker is 
 22  violating the law they should be charged with 
 23  violating a particular law?
 24       A.    They should be charged with violating 
 25  whatever law they violated, yes. 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       Q.    Has that charge been made against you in 
  3  this case, the charge that you're violating a 
  4  particular law?
  5       A.    I am not a lawyer.  I can't really 
  6  interpret how these laws are written. 
  7       Q.    What have you been charged with here?
  8       A.    I have been charged with -- my 
  9  understanding, a violation of the Digital 
 10  Millennium Copyright Act, which I believe is still 
 11  being interpreted in courts.
 12       Q.    Which violation?
 13       A.    I would have to look at the actual 
 14  charges.
 15       Q.    You don't remember?
 16       A.    Not specifically.
 17       Q.    Did 2600 magazine ever publish any 
 18  articles on DVD security systems prior to the hack 
 19  appearing on the Internet?
 20       A.    Not that I recall, no.  
 21       Q.    When did you first learn about DeCSS?
 22       A.    I first learned when it was initially 
 23  posted and when there was some controversy 
 24  surrounding people being intimidated into taking 
 25  the material off their web sites.  That's when we 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  started to take an interest in it.
  3       Q.    What do you mean when you say I learned 
  4  when it was posted?  You saw it on the Internet?
  5       A.    I saw mention of it.  I visited some of 
  6  the sites and saw what was being said about it.  I 
  7  realized what it was about.  And it became a news 
  8  story that we were interested in.
  9       Q.    Did any of the sites you visit talk 
 10  about copying or getting free movies?
 11       A.    No.  
 12       Q.    None.
 13       A.    I didn't see it on any of the sites I 
 14  went to, no.
 15       Q.    How many did you go to?
 16       A.    At that time probably about three, four.
 17       Q.    Why did you stop at that, do you 
 18  remember?
 19       A.    It's basically the same thing over and 
 20  over again as far as mirrors of the files, 
 21  explanations.  Once you understand what it's about, 
 22  there's no real need to go to other sites to get 
 23  the same explanation. 
 24       Q.    That was in approximately October 1999 
 25  or do you have a recollection of a different date?

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       A.    I know it was the fall.  It was either 
  3  October or November.  I don't remember specifically 
  4  which.
  5       Q.    How soon after you visited these three 
  6  or four sites that you just mentioned did you 
  7  decide to post?
  8       A.    As soon as we saw that people were being 
  9  harassed and intimidated, that became the story for 
 10  us, the fact that a technological development was 
 11  seen as a crime.  It had nothing to do with 
 12  stealing or copying.  It was basically talking 
 13  about encryption, and people were being scared into 
 14  not doing this, and that's when we realized this 
 15  was much bigger than just figuring out encryption.  
 16  This was about speech. 
 17       Q.    How were people being intimidated?  What 
 18  was your understanding at that time?
 19       A.    My understanding was letters were being 
 20  sent to Internet service providers that had given 
 21  people accounts and they were being pressured to 
 22  turn off those people's access.  In many cases they 
 23  did.  People were being threatened with all kinds 
 24  of legal action, and it really had a chilling 
 25  effect. 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       Q.    So is it true that the harassment you're 
  3  talking about consisted of letters being sent to 
  4  people saying they were violating the law and 
  5  asking them to stop it?
  6       A.    It was -- I don't recall the exact 
  7  phrasing of the letters, but that's my 
  8  understanding, that it was letters being sent both 
  9  to them and to the people who provided them 
 10  Internet access and just an unprecedented amount of 
 11  pressure being put upon them just for talking about 
 12  something, just for showing people how something 
 13  works.
 14       Q.    Did you then believe that people had a 
 15  right to ask people to stop violating a law if they 
 16  believed that the law was being violated and it 
 17  affected them? 
 18             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question.  
 19       What he has described already, he is working 
 20       as a journalist writing a story.  I object 
 21       to the question.
 22             MR. GOLD:  I didn't ask that question.  
 23       Well, he says he is a journalist many times.  
 24       He said he was writing a story.  But I asked 
 25       him if he believed at the time he found out 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       people were getting letters asking them to 
  3       stop violating the law whether or not people 
  4       had a right to send such letters if they 
  5       believed they were being harmed and the law 
  6       was being broken. 
  7             MR. GARBUS:  I object to it. 
  8       Q.    Do you have an answer for that?
  9  MO         MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question.  
 10       He is not a lawyer.  Go ahead.
 11       A.    Again, I am not a lawyer, but I saw 
 12  those letters as intimidation tactics more than 
 13  simply a request, if you're violating the law, 
 14  please don't do that.  Obviously people know not to 
 15  violate the law.  This was something that was 
 16  common on the Internet, talking about technology, 
 17  and all of a sudden people were being told not to 
 18  do that and being threatened in ways they had never 
 19  been threatened before.  And it wasn't only us.  It 
 20  was dozens, hundreds of other Internet sites that 
 21  were drawn into this because of that. 
 22             MR. GOLD:  Could you mark the 
 23       objection Mr. Garbus made so that we can -- 
 24       go back to the objection Mr. Garbus made and 
 25       do whatever you do so that one can find it 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       later right away.  A list can be made of 
  3       everything. 
  4             Read my last question back to the 
  5       witness, please.
  6             (A portion of the record was read.)
  7       Q.    I ask you again, do you have an answer 
  8  for that?
  9       A.    Assuming that my last answer wasn't 
 10  satisfactory, I will say yes, people have a right 
 11  to send letters if they believe the law is being 
 12  violated, but that's not how this was portrayed, 
 13  how it came across at all. 
 14       Q.    How many of such letters have you read?
 15       A.    I believe it was the same letter sent to 
 16  many people.
 17       Q.    How many of such letters have you read, 
 18  sir?
 19       A.    I saw about maybe four or five of them. 
 20       Q.    Were they all identical?
 21       A.    I believe they were.  Again, this is 
 22  several months ago, last year, so I can't say for 
 23  sure.  But I believe they were.
 24       Q.    Have you ever heard of a Chris Moseng, 
 25  M-o-s-e-n-g?

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       A.    No.  
  3       Q.    Have you ever heard of anyone name 
  4  Olegario -- let me spell it, because I don't think 
  5  I'm pronouncing it right -- O-l-e-g-a-r-i-o.  
  6  That's his is first name.  His last name is Craig.  
  7  Have you ever heard of such a person?
  8       A.    No.  
  9       Q.    Have you ever heard of Frank Stevenson?
 10       A.    I have heard that name, yes. 
 11       Q.    From whom?
 12       A.    I just -- that's a name in the Linux 
 13  community.  I am not specifically sure who he is, 
 14  but I know I have seen the name someplace.
 15       Q.    Do you think it's possible, do you 
 16  understand it's possible to transfer on the 
 17  Internet a 64 -- transfer a full movie such as "The 
 18  Matrix," on the Internet in 64 minutes?
 19       A.    If such a thing were possible it would 
 20  be very bad quality.  I mean, not -- certainly not 
 21  anything that would be viable. 
 22       Q.    Do you know if it's possible?
 23       A.    I don't know if it's possible.  I don't 
 24  know specifics as far as that goes. 
 25       Q.    Do you think it's possible to transmit a 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  50-gigabyte file in 48 minutes over the Internet? 
  3             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question. 
  4       Q.    I am just asking if you know. 
  5             MR. GARBUS:  You asked him if he 
  6       thought it was possible.
  7       A.    I don't believe with any bandwidth 
  8  that I have ever come in contact with, no.  
  9       Q.    Do you know how large a typical movie is 
 10  in digital form after it has been compressed using 
 11  DIVX, D-I-V-X?
 12       A.    No, I am not familiar with that.
 13       Q.    Is it true that once a DVD movie has 
 14  been copied and decrypted using DeCSS it can be 
 15  played back from the hard disk file using a whole 
 16  variety of commercial software?
 17       A.    No.  Well, it's kind of a trick question 
 18  because you don't need DeCSS to copy it in the 
 19  first place.  So if you just copied the DVD 
 20  encrypted without using DeCSS, you could play it 
 21  back already on any DVD player. 
 22       Q.    But the answer to my question was yes or 
 23  no?
 24             MR. GARBUS:  No, he gave you --
 25       Q.    Or you don't know?

  1                     Goldstein 
  2             MR. GARBUS:  He gave you a different 
  3       answer.  He didn't say yes.  He didn't say 
  4       he didn't know.
  5             MR. GOLD:  Read my question back. 
  6             MR. GARBUS:  Go ahead, just repeat 
  7       your answer.
  8             MR. GOLD:  What are you directing him 
  9       to do?  Just repeat his answer?
 10             Could you mark that note on the last 
 11       statement of Mr. Garbus. 
 12       A.    I am just trying to be clear here.  I 
 13  don't think that point about DeCSS is relevant to 
 14  the question.  It's like asking if it's possible on 
 15  a sunny day to do it.  It's not relevant.  You can 
 16  do it without DeCSS. 
 17             MR. GOLD:  Thank you.  Could you go 
 18       back and read my last question to the 
 19       witness.  I will ask him to answer it. 
 20             (A portion of the record was read.)
 21             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question.  
 22       It's already been asked and answered.
 23       A.    I am trying to answer this in a way you 
 24  like. 
 25       Q.    I don't want you to do that.  I want you 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  to answer it in a way you think it's true.
  3       A.    If you copy an encrypted DVD onto a hard 
  4  disk and you somehow have the space on the hard 
  5  disk for that, and you have CSS already to play it 
  6  back through, yes, you will be able to view it that 
  7  way. 
  8       Q.    Going back to the question about your 
  9  posting DeCSS, how soon after you first saw it did 
 10  you post it?
 11       A.    How soon after we first saw the initial 
 12  posting?  It would be whatever period of time went 
 13  by before people started being threatened plus a 
 14  couple of days.  Because we discussed the 
 15  importance of it.
 16       Q.    Prior to the time you first posted it 
 17  what efforts did you make to find out whether 
 18  movies could be transmitted over the Internet?  
 19  Just list them all.
 20       A.    I didn't make any effort to find that 
 21  out.  I didn't see that as anything relevant.
 22       Q.    Prior to the time you first posted DeCSS 
 23  did you make any efforts to find out if there were 
 24  web sites in the United States which allowed people 
 25  to exchange movie files?

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       A.    No, that's not my interest.
  3       Q.    You made no such efforts; is that right?
  4       A.    No such efforts, no.  
  5       Q.    Prior to the time you first posted DeCSS 
  6  did you make any effort whatsoever to contact 
  7  anyone that produced movies in the United States?
  8       A.    No.  
  9       Q.    Have you ever used Napster?
 10       A.    I have played with Napster once or 
 11  twice, yes.
 12       Q.    Was that before you posted DeCSS?
 13       A.    Oh, no, that was way after.  I don't 
 14  think Napster existed back then.  That was a fairly 
 15  new development.
 16       Q.    Napster is a new development that 
 17  existed after November '99?
 18       A.    I believe so.
 19       Q.    So that would be about what?  Six months 
 20  ago that it first existed it?
 21       A.    I don't know when Napster first existed. 
 22       Q.    Do you know how many users use Napster 
 23  on a daily basis?
 24       A.    No.  
 25       Q.    No idea?

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       A.    No, not really.
  3       Q.    Do you know how many records are taken 
  4  down from Napster or traded, do you know how many 
  5  records on a daily basis are traded between Napster 
  6  users?
  7       A.    Entire records or just individual songs? 
  8       Q.    Songs.
  9       A.    I can't say I know.
 10       Q.    Is it in the multimillions?
 11       A.    I have no idea. 
 12       Q.    At all?
 13       A.    I really have no idea on that.
 14       Q.    I am not sure I asked this.  I might 
 15  have, so I apologize.  Have you ever used DeCSS to 
 16  decrypt a DVD movie?
 17       A.    No.
 18       Q.    Is it true that DeCSS exists and is 
 19  designed for the sole function of decrypting CSS 
 20  encoded content?
 21       A.    DeCSS exists to decrypt CSS, yes.
 22       Q.    And that's its only purpose?
 23       A.    As far as --
 24       Q.    As far as you know.  
 25       A.    The purpose in the greater context of 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  providing an open source player for a Linux 
  3  machine, yes. 
  4       Q.    What do you know about how DeCSS works?
  5       A.    I am not an expert on that kind of 
  6  thing. 
  7       Q.    So you don't know anything about it.
  8       A.    I really don't know the technicalities 
  9  at all, no.  
 10       Q.    Is it true to your knowledge that by 
 11  downloading and running the object code form or 
 12  executable form of DeCSS utility, a user can 
 13  copyright a decrypted movie?  Let me ask it again.
 14             Is it true to your knowledge that by 
 15  downloading and running the object form, by which I 
 16  mean the executable form, of the DeCSS utility, a 
 17  user can create a decrypted movie? 
 18       A.    I am not entirely sure.  That's a little 
 19  too technical for me.
 20       Q.    You're saying you don't know.
 21       A.    I don't know. 
 22       Q.    Is it true that after creating a 
 23  decrypted movie file DeCSS allows that file to be 
 24  copied to the user's computer hard disk? 
 25             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       the question.  He said he didn't know 
  3       whether or not the first part of your 
  4       question, which was the last question, was 
  5       true or not. 
  6       Q.    Do you know the answer to that question?
  7       A.    Again, I have never used DeCSS, so I 
  8  don't know these kinds of things.
  9       Q.    Can you describe for me the role, if 
 10  any, of DeCSS in reverse engineering?
 11       A.    Basically CSS uses the particular type 
 12  of encryption.  DeCSS gets around that kind of 
 13  encryption, defeats it, basically allows you to see 
 14  how that encryption works or in this case doesn't 
 15  work to encrypt -- to encrypt the data.  And in so 
 16  doing, a lot can be learned.
 17       Q.    Is that everything you know about the 
 18  role of DeCSS in reverse engineering?
 19       A.    Yes.  It's a general thing, but that's 
 20  basically the extent of my knowledge, is very 
 21  general.
 22       Q.    Describe the role, if any, of DeCSS in 
 23  connection with efforts to create an open source 
 24  DVD player.
 25       A.    My understanding is that the many Linux 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  users of the world had long wanted a DVD player for 
  3  their operating system.  For various reasons of 
  4  which I don't really know the details they were 
  5  unable to obtain a license for this. 
  6             By reverse engineering CSS, those 
  7  restrictions were able to be bypassed and people 
  8  who had legitimately obtained DVDs were able to 
  9  play them on their legitimately obtained computers, 
 10  which I had never seen to be a problem.  
 11       Q.    Who, if anyone, is working on creating 
 12  the open source DVD player you just referred to?
 13       A.    A lot of people are.  I mentioned the 
 14  Livid project yesterday.  I know that's one group 
 15  of people that are doing it.  I know lots of people 
 16  in the Linux community are working on such things.
 17       Q.    Do you know any names of people in the 
 18  Livid group who are --
 19       A.    I remembered one since yesterday, 
 20  Matthew Pablovich.  That's the only name I know.
 21       Q.      Did anyone in the Livid group ever try 
 22  to obtain a lease from DVD CCA?
 23       A.    No, I don't know that. 
 24       Q.    Did you make any effort to find that 
 25  out?

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       A.    I didn't ask them specifically if they 
  3  did that, no.  
  4       Q.    Do you know whether or not it would have 
  5  been possible for them to obtain a lease?
  6       A.    No, I don't even know if it's even 
  7  possible.  I assume you mean license, not lease.
  8       Q.    I meant licensed.  Thank you.
  9       A.    Sure.
 10       Q.    Describe the role that DeCSS is 
 11  currently playing, if any, in cryptographic 
 12  research?
 13       A.    As I said, DeCSS allows one to study 
 14  encryption that was used in CSS.  That's my very 
 15  general understanding of how it can be used to 
 16  study this. 
 17       Q.    What is the relationship, if any, 
 18  between DeCSS and legal consumer fair use?
 19             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question.  
 20       The witness is not a lawyer. 
 21             MR. GOLD:  Do you have the October 30, 
 22       I'm sorry, the May 30th -- May 3rd 
 23       declaration in front of you still? 
 24       Q.    Turn to paragraph 14 at page 5. 
 25             Do you understand that in paragraph 14 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  you refer to the role of DeCSS to aid legal 
  3  consumer fair use?
  4       A.    Uh-huh.
  5       Q.    Do you see that you said that?
  6       A.    Yes, I said that.
  7       Q.    What did you mean by legal consumer fair 
  8  use?
  9       A.    Again, I am not a lawyer, but I believe 
 10  I explained --
 11       Q.    Were you a lawyer when you wrote this?
 12       A.    No.
 13       Q.    Were you a lawyer when you signed it?  
 14       A.    I have never been a lawyer.  I believe I 
 15  explained this yesterday though. 
 16       Q.    I am turning to paragraph 14 and I am 
 17  asking you what you meant when you swore to the 
 18  fact that the DeCSS program can be used as an aid 
 19  of legal consumer fair use.
 20       A.    By allowing someone to view something 
 21  which ordinarily they would be prohibited from 
 22  viewing and transferring onto another medium, such 
 23  as a videotape, this enables consumers to make use 
 24  of fair use with regards to DVD. 
 25             For instance, if you were making a 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  report for your class and you wanted to include a 
  3  ten-second segment or a one-minute segment of 
  4  something that was only on DVD, you would not be 
  5  able to do that.  On a videotape, yes, you would be 
  6  able to do that.  From a book, yes, you would be 
  7  able to do that.  DVDs are the first medium that 
  8  prohibit fair use.  In my view. 
  9       Q.    Do you know whether or not viewing an 
 10  entire movie constitutes fair use or has anything 
 11  to do with fair use? 
 12             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 
 13       the question.  He is not a lawyer.
 14       A.    It's not my understanding as a nonlawyer 
 15  that that is covered. 
 16       Q.    And as a nonlawyer when you talked about 
 17  legal consumer fair use, what specific forms of 
 18  fair use did you have in mind?
 19       A.    As I described, basically being able to 
 20  take a portion of something and use it in another 
 21  work.  As has been done for however long fair use 
 22  has been around. 
 23       Q.    Other than posting DeCSS did you do 
 24  anything else to support its existence? 
 25             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the use of 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       the term "support its existence."
  3             MR. GOLD:  Why? 
  4             MR. GARBUS:  I don't know what it 
  5       means. 
  6             MR. GOLD:  You don't know what it 
  7       means? 
  8             MR. GARBUS:  I don't know what it 
  9       means.  I don't know what it means.
 10             MR. GOLD:  Did you read his affidavit 
 11       or did you write his affidavit? 
 12             MR. GARBUS:  I don't know what the 
 13       terms in those terms mean.  If you want to 
 14       refer to something in the affidavit, I will 
 15       be glad to look at it.
 16             MR. GOLD:  I would have thought you 
 17       looked at it before. 
 18             MR. GARBUS:  Perhaps not.  I didn't 
 19       prepare it.
 20             MR. GOLD:  I don't know that. 
 21       Q.    Turning to paragraph 14 at page 5 of 
 22  your -- I think declaration, the second line begins 
 23  the sentence as follows.  "However, when it was 
 24  posted to the Internet, I recognized the importance 
 25  of such a program to a variety of disciplines, 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  including reverse engineering an open-source DVD 
  3  player, cryptography and in aid of legal consumer 
  4  fair use."  What did you mean by -- strike that. 
  5             The next sentence says, "I was quick to 
  6  show support for its existence."  What did you mean 
  7  by support when you swore to this?
  8       A.    I consider support to be writing about 
  9  it, writing articles about it, educating people and 
 10  of course our eventual mirroring of the source code 
 11  in the program. 
 12       Q.    Did you understand when you were doing 
 13  that you were helping to proliferate the DeCSS 
 14  code? 
 15             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 
 16       the question.
 17       A.    As I said, I saw that as support for the 
 18  existence of DeCSS, which I believe was covered for 
 19  the reasons stated.
 20       Q.    Was it your intent in doing the things 
 21  you testified to to have as many people in the 
 22  United States have DeCSS as was possible? 
 23             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 
 24       the question.  He already stated he was a 
 25       journalist writing a story. 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       Q.    You can answer, sir.  
  3       A.    Initially our only intent was to draw 
  4  attention to the fact that these people were being 
  5  intimidated, that this technological development 
  6  had occurred, and that was the extent of it.  We 
  7  were not going around on a crusade trying to get 
  8  DeCSS into everyone's home.  We were basically 
  9  writing an interesting story and showing people 
 10  something that was an interesting technological 
 11  development.  Unfortunately, that turned us into 
 12  the threat=. 
 13       Q.    After initially what was your purpose in 
 14  posting DeCSS?
 15             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to it.  He 
 16       hasn't testified it changed.
 17  MO         MR. GOLD:  Do you want to mark that so 
 18       that we can get that added to the list of 
 19       Mr. Garbus's objections that we are focusing 
 20       on. 
 21       A.    Obviously once we became the target of 
 22  these legal threats, our position changed in that 
 23  we had to defend ourselves.  We had to explain our 
 24  position, how all of a sudden we were perceived as 
 25  a threat and we had nothing to do with the 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  development of the program in the first place. 
  3             So obviously our position in the whole 
  4  mix kind of was shifted.  Instead of reporting on 
  5  something, we became the story, which is never 
  6  something that we were pursuing ourselves.  I am 
  7  still kind of, you know, questioning why that 
  8  happened. 
  9             MR. GARBUS:  Can we take our morning 
 10       break? 
 11             MR. GOLD:  Sure.  About ten minutes. 
 12             THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  The time is 
 13       11:18 a.m.  We're going off the record. 
 14             (A recess was taken.)
 15             THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  The time is 
 16       11:29 a.m.  We're back on the record. 
 17  By MR. GOLD: 
 18       Q.    Mr. Goldstein, what, if anything, would 
 19  have been different in the stories or editorials 
 20  you published on your web site if you removed from 
 21  them the letters "DeCSS"?
 22       A.    I am not sure I follow the question. 
 23       Q.    Well, what would have been different 
 24  about what you were saying, what would have been 
 25  interpreted in a different way, if you eliminated 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  the letters "DeCSS"?
  3       A.    Do you mean the letters, the program, 
  4  the source code, any reference to DeCSS? 
  5       Q.    No, not any reference.  If you just took 
  6  those five letters out of your stories, what would 
  7  have been different?
  8       A.    I don't understand the question. 
  9       Q.    If instead of saying "DeCSS" you 
 10  referred to a program which decrypted CSS and never 
 11  used those five letters --
 12       A.    You mean not refer specifically to -- 
 13       Q.    -- quote, DeCSS.
 14       A.    Uh-huh. 
 15       Q.    Close quote.
 16       A.    We would have had a very general story 
 17  about something without any specific information, 
 18  which is what our readers look for, specific 
 19  information, you know, what is it that we're 
 20  talking about?  Show us what you mean.  And we were 
 21  compelled to provide our readers with that. 
 22       Q.    Are you saying what would have been 
 23  different -- if I understand, tell me if I am 
 24  wrong, you're saying what would have been different 
 25  is that nobody could have picked the DeCSS code up 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  from your web site. 
  3             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.  That's not 
  4       what he said.
  5       Q.    Is that what you're saying or not? 
  6       A.    If you're saying that if we had taken 
  7  the program off of our web site, obviously no, 
  8  people wouldn't have been able to get the program 
  9  from our web site.  The story that we wrote had to 
 10  do with the fact that the program was already out 
 11  there and that people were being harassed because 
 12  they had it up on their site.  And that's what the 
 13  story was about. 
 14       Q.    Why couldn't you have said all that and 
 15  just not used the five letters "DeCSS" together?
 16       A.    Because that was the major part of the 
 17  story, that was what the program was called.  So to 
 18  eliminate a major part of the story like that would 
 19  either be censorship or intimidation, and we don't 
 20  believe in either one.
 21       Q.    I didn't say that I was going to do it 
 22  or the government was going to do it.  I asked you 
 23  what would have changed about your story --
 24       A.    Well, it's self-censorship.
 25       Q.    -- if you decided to eliminate.

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       A.    Right, it is self-censorship.  You do it 
  3  for a reason.  You do it because you believe you'll 
  4  be targeted if you don't and then you do something 
  5  that isn't right for the wrong reasons.  As 
  6  journalists this is very important to us.
  7       Q.    Is it true or is it not true that the 
  8  main reason you put "DeCSS" in the stories and 
  9  editorials you wrote on your web site was that so 
 10  people could go to the web site and download DeCSS, 
 11  the entire program?
 12             MR. GARBUS:  Objection. 
 13       A.    No, that's not the reason.  If people 
 14  wanted to download DeCSS, there were hundreds of 
 15  sites they could do it from.  They could go to any 
 16  search engine and find it that way.
 17       Q.    Why did you have to make it possible for 
 18  them to go to yours and pick it up?
 19       A.    Because we're a newsletter and this was 
 20  a bit of news that affected people who read our 
 21  magazine.  It was of interest to people who read 
 22  our magazine.  And we felt compelled to cover it, 
 23  and covering it includes giving as many details as 
 24  we can.
 25       Q.    But my question is, isn't it true if you 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  took out "DeCSS" the only thing that would have 
  3  changed is people's ability to download DeCSS from 
  4  your web site? 
  5             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.  That's not 
  6       what he said.
  7             MR. GOLD:  I asked him if that was 
  8       true.
  9       A.    No.  It's part of the story.  DeCSS is 
 10  part of the story.  We provide our readers with 
 11  firsthand information, and that was information 
 12  that we provided them. 
 13       Q.    When you wrote the story about DeCSS in 
 14  your hard copy magazine, nobody could go to that 
 15  magazine and pull down the code, could they?
 16       A.    Well, you can't really put a program in 
 17  a magazine like that, no.  
 18       Q.    Do you remember writing on your web site 
 19  that DeCSS is a free DVD decoder that allows people 
 20  to copy DVDs? 
 21       A.    No, as I said yesterday, that was not my 
 22  writing. 
 23       Q.    Someone else wrote it? 
 24       A.    Yes.
 25       Q.    And you identified who?

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       A.    Our webmaster.
  3       Q.    And you didn't see it before it was put 
  4  there?
  5       A.    No, I saw it before, and I take 
  6  responsibility for it being there.
  7       Q.    Is it true?
  8       A.    No, that's inaccurate, because as I have 
  9  testified, that does not enable people to copy 
 10  DVDs.  You can already copy DVDs.
 11       Q.    Why would you allow an inaccurate 
 12  statement to be published on your site?
 13       A.    Because in emerging technology, even we 
 14  don't always get the facts right, and this is one 
 15  particular case where we didn't understand the full 
 16  implications of the program at the time.
 17       Q.    Do you mean at the time that you 
 18  published this on your web site, I take it you're 
 19  telling me you did believe that DeCSS was a free 
 20  DVD decoder --
 21             MR. GARBUS:  I will object. 
 22       Q.    -- that allows people to copy DVDs; is 
 23  that true? 
 24             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to it.  
 25       That's not what he testified.

  1                     Goldstein 
  2             MR. GOLD:  Didn't say it was.  I asked 
  3       him a question.
  4       A.    At the time my understanding was that 
  5  the program allowed people to view things in that 
  6  particular way and that with the proper type of 
  7  hardware and software you would be able to copy 
  8  certain files.  But I didn't have a full 
  9  understanding of what the implications were. 
 10             At that particular point in time, the 
 11  main story as far as we were concerned was the fact 
 12  that this was technology that people were being 
 13  intimidated into taking off their web sites.  We 
 14  didn't have a chance to fully explore what was 
 15  being done with the technology.  Once we did, then 
 16  it became clear. 
 17       Q.    What is simply unclear to me from your 
 18  statement, and I apologize for asking again, but I 
 19  can't understand what you're saying, so I will try 
 20  again.
 21       A.    OK.
 22       Q.    At the time this was published, that 
 23  DeCSS is a free DVD decoder that allows people to 
 24  copy DVDs, at the time that was published on your 
 25  web site, you believed that that was a true 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  statement, didn't you? 
  3             MR. GARBUS:  I object to it.  The 
  4       witness has already testified that 
  5       someone --
  6             MR. GOLD:  I'm going to ask you not to 
  7       coach anymore. 
  8             MR. GARBUS:  I'm not.  I am just 
  9       stating the witness has already testified --
 10             MR. GOLD:  OK, that's enough for your 
 11       objection.
 12       A.    I mean, I answered this question, but 
 13  that my understanding of how the technology worked, 
 14  that that's what it was about.  I did not see that 
 15  as the issue at that point in time.
 16       Q.    At the time you understood the 
 17  technology to be that, i.e. a free DVD decoder that 
 18  allows people to copy DVDs, did you remove DeCSS 
 19  from your web site?
 20       A.    I don't think we had even started 
 21  posting it at that point.  That was before.
 22       Q.    Are you sure?
 23       A.    I can't say for certain.  I don't 
 24  remember specific dates involved.  But at that 
 25  point we were reporting on people being intimidated 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  and taking it off their sites.  And we didn't quite 
  3  understand what the program did ourselves.  We just 
  4  knew that telling people to take down source code 
  5  on a web site was unprecedented.
  6       Q.    Did you ever publish on your web site 
  7  the idea that you wanted as many people as possible 
  8  all throughout the world to mirror the DeCSS files?
  9       A.    After we were targeted we did express 
 10  the -- for people who wanted to show support, we 
 11  expressed that as a valid way of showing support, 
 12  yes. 
 13       Q.    Did you exhort others to mirror DeCSS in 
 14  order to further cryptographic research? 
 15             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question, 
 16       exhort.  I don't know what you mean by that.
 17       A.    We told people who wanted to support us 
 18  that that was a valid form of expression.
 19       Q.    Did you do it, did you ask people to do 
 20  that to further cryptographic research?
 21       A.    We told people if they wanted to support 
 22  us that this was a valid way of doing it.  Whatever 
 23  their reasons, whether it was for freedom of 
 24  speech, whether it was for reverse engineering, 
 25  cryptographic research, that was up to them.  We 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  didn't crawl into their heads and figure out their 
  3  motives.  We said if you wanted to support us, we 
  4  considered this a valid way of doing it.
  5       Q.    Did you exhort others to mirror the 
  6  DeCSS file for purposes of reverse engineering? 
  7             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 
  8       the question.
  9       A.    My previous answer I think answers 
 10  that word for word. 
 11       Q.    Did you exhort others to mirror DeCSS 
 12  files in order to further fair use? 
 13             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 
 14       the question.
 15       A.    Again --
 16             MR. GARBUS:  He's already asked and 
 17       answered.
 18       A.    -- I've already answered that. 
 19       Q.    That's all right.  You can answer it 
 20  again.
 21       A.    As I just said, we told people if they 
 22  wanted to support us, that whatever their 
 23  reasoning, whatever they felt, you know, the 
 24  purpose for mirroring the sites, the files, we 
 25  consider that a valid form of expression.

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       Q.    So you didn't have the slightest idea of 
  3  what all these people would do if they downloaded 
  4  DeCSS or if they got DeCSS from your web site. 
  5       A.    Are you talking about the people who 
  6  mirrored or the people who downloaded from the 
  7  mirrors?
  8       Q.    People who mirrored.
  9       A.    Well, we knew what the people who 
 10  mirrored were doing, they were mirroring.  They 
 11  were simply putting the files up and explaining on 
 12  their web sites what the issues were about and 
 13  basically educating people about it. 
 14       Q.    Did you have any idea what all of those 
 15  people would do with DeCSS that they now possessed? 
 16  MO         MR. GARBUS:  I will object to what they 
 17       now possessed.  He already testified that it 
 18       had been up a long while before and that 
 19       other people had possessed it. 
 20             MR. GOLD:  Would you mark that again, 
 21       please, that particular objection.  
 22       A.    First of all, there is no indication 
 23  that they received the program from us, because the 
 24  program was all over the place.  Mostly they were 
 25  posting opinions and facts about the case and 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  educating more and more people about it.  Posting 
  3  the actual code was more of a symbolic type of a 
  4  thing.  But actually talking about the issues was 
  5  what we were encouraging.  That's what I think a 
  6  lot of people did. 
  7             As I mentioned yesterday --
  8       Q.    How do you know who did that?
  9       A.    I'm sorry?
 10       Q.    How do you know who did that?
 11             MR. GARBUS:  Will you let him finish 
 12       his answer.
 13       A.    Should I finish my answer before? 
 14       Q.    You hadn't?
 15       A.    I had one sentence.  As I mentioned 
 16  yesterday, most people that I -- in fact, I don't 
 17  know anybody who has actually used the program.  So 
 18  I can't testify as to what people did with the 
 19  program.  I am not aware of anyone ever using the 
 20  program. 
 21             This became a story that was of great 
 22  interest to people in the community.  And that's 
 23  what we were trying to, um to  have people become 
 24  educated on this, basically talking about the 
 25  issues and why they were important to them and we 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  encouraged people to think about them. 
  3       Q.    When you did post DeCSS and at present 
  4  when you're linking to other sites that post DeCSS, 
  5  is it true that any member of the general public 
  6  with Internet access can take it and download 
  7  DeCSS?
  8       A.    Yes, it is. 
  9       Q.    Who removed the posting of DeCSS after 
 10  the January 20 injunction?
 11       A.    Who physically moved the files?  I 
 12  believe it was both myself and my webmaster.  I 
 13  think my webmaster is the one who actually hit the 
 14  keys, if that's what you're after. 
 15       Q.    You're currently linking to other sites 
 16  that post DeCSS?
 17       A.    We have a list of links to other sites 
 18  that still have the files up, yes.
 19       Q.    In order to transmit DeCSS to as many 
 20  people throughout the world as possible, does it 
 21  make any difference whether you post DeCSS or link 
 22  it to others who post DeCSS? 
 23             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 
 24       the question.  How does he know that?
 25             MR. GOLD:  We'll find out.

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       A.    It's not something that I really know 
  3  the efficiency of how, how to best get a file out.  
  4  I would imagine we're not doing it in the most 
  5  efficient way possible, which I think is further 
  6  testament to the fact that we're not in the 
  7  business of distributing this file.  We're 
  8  basically trying to get information out about it 
  9  and to spread education.
 10       Q.    If somebody takes or downloads DeCSS 
 11  from someone who is posting it, how do they do 
 12  that?  Describe it to me.
 13       A.    There are a number of different ways.  
 14  On the web they could click on a link, on that 
 15  other person's site, which would start a download 
 16  to their hard drive. 
 17             You could also use a method known as 
 18  FTP, where you basically open a connection and then 
 19  specify the file you want to download.  It 
 20  basically involves downloading however many files 
 21  are there.
 22       Q.    One of the ways that anyone can download 
 23  DeCSS from someone who is posting it is just to put 
 24  his mouse on the DeCSS and click once?
 25       A.    Usually you have to click twice to 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  indicate where in the hard disk you want to put it, 
  3  but that's close to what you have to do, yes.
  4       Q.    He clicks twice.
  5       A.    You have to go to the site.  You have to 
  6  select the file.  You have to tell your computer 
  7  where to put the file.  I think you might have to 
  8  verify after that as well.
  9       Q.    If a person wants to download DeCSS and 
 10  he goes first to someone who's linking to a site 
 11  that posts DeCSS, what does he have to do?
 12       A.    Do you mean a site such as ours? 
 13       Q.    Yes. 
 14       A.    There's an additional step in that he 
 15  would have to go to the page that has a list of 
 16  other sites that have that information.  He would 
 17  have to physically himself go to that site and 
 18  then --
 19       Q.    By clicking on?
 20       A.    By clicking on the link, then his 
 21  computer executes a command to go to a different 
 22  site.  And at that point it's out of our site and 
 23  he does whatever that site -- he follows whatever 
 24  instructions are on that site or he looks at 
 25  whatever information is on that site.

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       Q.    But if that site simply has DeCSS up on 
  3  its first page, or the link will go to the first 
  4  page and all that person would have to do is click 
  5  on the DeCSS, right?
  6       A.    However their site is laid out.  He 
  7  would have to click however many times they specify 
  8  on that particular site if the file was even there.  
  9  If it's on a different page, he might have to click 
 10  a few more files.  Basically what the list of links 
 11  is is a list of sites where he can find information 
 12  or the actual program.
 13       Q.    So it's pretty simple, is it, to 
 14  download DeCSS if one starts with your site which 
 15  links to other sites that post them? 
 16             MR. GARBUS:  Object to the form of the 
 17       question.
 18       A.    I consider it to be pretty simple no 
 19  matter what site you go to.  You can go to Yahoo or 
 20  Alta Vista and find it just as easily.  So to me 
 21  it's an easy thing.  I don't know.  I can't put 
 22  myself in the heads of other people.
 23       Q.    Is Yahoo now linking to sites that post 
 24  DeCSS?
 25       A.    Well, yes, if you type DeCSS into a 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  search engine, you will get links to all the sites 
  3  that have then, so yes.
  4       Q.    When you posted DeCSS was it in object 
  5  code form?
  6       A.    I can't really say.  That's a technical 
  7  thing.  Because I have never actually examined the 
  8  files myself.  I never had occasion to --
  9       Q.    So you have no idea?
 10       A.    I am not sure what format they are in, 
 11  no.
 12       Q.    With respect to the sites you're now 
 13  linking to, are those sites all carrying DeCSS in 
 14  object form?
 15       A.    I can't say what's on each of those 
 16  sites. 
 17       Q.    What about what's on any of them?
 18       A.    I know it's in source code form, object 
 19  code form, Different formats.  But there's no way I 
 20  can swear to what every single site has.  There are 
 21  different sites.  Some of them have changed.
 22             MR. GARBUS:  Mr. Gold, if you leave a 
 23       space certainly he can find out what it is 
 24       on his site and he can tell you that. 
 25             THE WITNESS:  No, I can't.  It's not 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       on my site anymore.
  3             MR. GARBUS:  Well, when it was on your 
  4       site could you find it?
  5             THE WITNESS:  I don't know how.  It's 
  6       not there. 
  7             MR. GARBUS:  My attempt to be helpful 
  8       was a failure.
  9       Q.    What is object code?
 10       A.    I imagine it's --
 11       Q.    Do you know?
 12       A.    It's -- I am not really --
 13       Q.    If you don't know, tell me you don't 
 14  know. 
 15       A.    I feel like an idiot, but I don't really 
 16  know specifically how to define it. 
 17             MR. GARBUS:  Don't be an idiot and 
 18       don't speculate.
 19       A.    The source code. 
 20       Q.    Is it true that you don't know what 
 21  source code is?
 22       A.    I know what source code is.  It's 
 23  basically the printed -- the printed words involved 
 24  in a computer program that later get compiled into 
 25  an actual program. 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2             So basically the source code is the meat 
  3  of the whole thing.  That's where you can analyze 
  4  what the program does, how it does it, think of 
  5  better ways for it to work more efficiently, and 
  6  learn from it that way.
  7       Q.    How if you know does object code differ 
  8  from that?
  9       A.    I am not familiar with object code.  I 
 10  am not a computer programmer. 
 11       Q.    Would object code of DeCSS be helpful to 
 12  a cryptographer?
 13       A.    I imagine any form would be helpful to 
 14  someone who knew what they were talking about. 
 15       Q.    Is it true that any member of the 
 16  general public with Internet access could prior to 
 17  January 20 access and directly download 
 18  DeCSS?
 19       A.    If it was after when we put it up and 
 20  before when we took it down, yes.
 21       Q.    Before the injunction.
 22       A.    Yes, anyone who could access our site 
 23  would be able to download it.
 24       Q.    How will knowledge gained from DeCSS 
 25  allow future programs to develop better DVD 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  players, if you know?
  3       A.    Well, as -- my opinion on the matter is 
  4  that it would for one thing enable you to develop 
  5  better encryption so that this kind of thing 
  6  doesn't happen again or so that it takes longer for 
  7  it to happen again. 
  8       Q.    How will the knowledge gained from DeCSS 
  9  allow future programmers to fast forward through 
 10  commercials or to the part of the movie they want 
 11  to see?
 12       A.    I'm sorry, give me the first part of the 
 13  question.
 14       Q.    Yes.
 15             MR. GOLD:  Could you read the question 
 16       back. 
 17             (A portion of the record was read.)
 18       A.    By understanding the access controls 
 19  that are contained within CSS, by understanding 
 20  that and figuring out ways to bypass them or change 
 21  them, one can get around those playback controls, 
 22  playback controls being the things that control how 
 23  you view the film.  Not whether you can view the 
 24  film, but how you view it.
 25             MR. GARBUS:  May I hear the answer, 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       Mr. Gold? 
  3             MR. GOLD:  Of course. 
  4             (A portion of the record was read.)
  5       Q.    Do you know what a temporary RAM copy of 
  6  a movie is?
  7       A.    Not specifically, no.  
  8       Q.    Do you know how it differs, if at all, 
  9  from a copy that is made to a permanent computer 
 10  file?
 11       A.    I can only speculate. 
 12       Q.    I prefer you give us only your 
 13  knowledge.  
 14             MR. GARBUS:  Don't speculate. 
 15       Q.    Did you ever advise visitors to the 2600 
 16  web site that they shouldn't take DeCSS if they 
 17  just want to copy a DVD?
 18       A.    Yes, I believe that was around the same 
 19  time where we thought that there was some 
 20  relationship between DeCSS and copying.  So that 
 21  statement could very well have appeared on our 
 22  site.
 23       Q.    Did you change the statement when you 
 24  thought you learned something different from 
 25  copying movies?

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       A.    No, it's our view that a news story, if 
  3  it makes a mistake, the mistake lives with the 
  4  story and we just move on from there.  We don't try 
  5  and rewrite the past. 
  6       Q.    Are you serious?
  7       A.    We wrote it back then.  For us to go 
  8  back and rewrite it with the date from the past I 
  9  think would be dishonest.
 10       Q.    Why did you advise visitors to your site 
 11  not to download DeCSS if they just wanted to copy a 
 12  DVD?  Why did you give them that advice?
 13       A.    Well, with the knowledge we had at the 
 14  time --
 15       Q.    Yes.
 16       A.    -- we wanted to make sure that people 
 17  were following this for the right reasons.  
 18  Basically that this was a discussion about 
 19  technology, about how a particular form of 
 20  encryption worked, about reverse engineering.  And 
 21  that was the real issue.  It wasn't about, you 
 22  know, what you could get for free or, you know, how 
 23  much you could get away with.  That's not what 
 24  we're about.  We're about education.  We wanted to 
 25  make sure that that's why people took an interest 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  in this. 
  3             Obviously we can't control what people 
  4  do.  But we wanted to make it clear where we were 
  5  coming from on this.
  6       Q.    Can you control what you do?
  7       A.    Oh, certainly. 
  8       Q.    Well, then why did you stop saying don't 
  9  take down, don't download DeCSS if all you want to 
 10  do is copy a DVD?  Why would you have changed that?
 11       A.    Well, we changed it when we realized it 
 12  had nothing to do with copying DVDs.  So it became 
 13  kind of pointless for us to continue saying that. 
 14       Q.    Did you believe it would have been 
 15  illegal to make a copy when you wrote, when you 
 16  were advising people not to take DeCSS if all they 
 17  wanted to do was copy the movie?
 18       A.    Again, I am not a lawyer.  I don't know 
 19  the specific laws, but certainly I would consider 
 20  it to be illegal and immoral at the very least to 
 21  copy anything that's not yours.
 22       Q.    Was one reason that you advised viewers 
 23  not to take DeCSS if they wanted to make a copy of 
 24  it, the movie, the fact that you believed it would 
 25  have been illegal, so you wanted to tell them that?

  1                     Goldstein 
  2             MR. GARBUS:  Objection. 
  3       Q.    That either was a reason that you had or 

  4  it wasn't.
  5       A.    That was a concern. 
  6       Q.    It was a concern.
  7       A.    Definitely would have been a concern if 
  8  we thought it was illegal, yes. 
  9       Q.    Who told you that you couldn't copy a 
 10  movie if you downloaded DeCSS?
 11       A.    After the story became a little bit more 
 12  well established, numerous people --
 13       Q.    You can't name any of them?
 14       A.    I didn't write down people's names.
 15             MR. GARBUS:  I don't think he finished 
 16       his answer.
 17       A.    Basically these are the people that we 
 18  saw at conferences, at 2600 meetings, people who 
 19  had called up the radio show or sent us random bits 
 20  of E-mail.  It just became general knowledge that 
 21  that's what this program did and it didn't do this. 
 22             And once we understood more, how the 
 23  technology worked ourselves, we were able to get it 
 24  right.
 25       Q.    Did you ever consult any expert or 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  someone you recognized as an expert to find out if 
  3  you could copy a movie once you downloaded DeCSS?
  4       A.    I talked with people starting with I 
  5  believe the early part of this year.  I think at 
  6  the Linux Expo earlier this year I talked to a 
  7  number of people at a panel discussion. 
  8             In fact, I remember at the panel 
  9  discussion I even asked one of the lawyers there 
 10  who had helped write the Digital Millennium 
 11  Copyright Act if there were any cases of DeCSS 
 12  being used to copy files.  He wasn't able to name 
 13  any.
 14       Q.    I assume you can't remember the name of 
 15  either one of those people.
 16       A.    I am not good with names.  
 17  Unfortunately. 
 18       Q.    What about Internet names like Zerb or 
 19  Blip or Blup or Fluff or things like that?
 20       A.    No.
 21       Q.    You can't even remember one by its 
 22  Internet name.
 23       A.    See, this is just a general widely 
 24  accepted view that this cannot be done.  I don't 
 25  remember specifically who first told me.  It's just 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  something that everybody knows.
  3       Q.    Is it the view of the experts in this 
  4  case who have submitted affidavits on your behalf?
  5       A.    Yes.
  6       Q.    How do you know that?
  7       A.    Well, I mean, I --
  8       Q.    Why do you say it is?
  9       A.    Even without looking at it -- 
 10       Q.    You didn't read the affidavit and you 
 11  didn't talk to them about it.
 12       A.    I didn't talk to them personally.
 13       Q.    And you didn't read the affidavit.
 14             MR. GARBUS:  I think he said that he 
 15       read some of it --
 16       A.    Yeah, I glanced at affidavits.  I am 
 17  not sure exactly what parts I missed.  But the 
 18  overwhelming prevailing view is that it's simply 
 19  not possible.  This is not a copying mechanism. 
 20             MR. GOLD:  Let's mark this as 
 21       Exhibit 6.
 22             (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 6, series of 
 23       documents on web sites and web listings, 
 24       marked for identification, as of this date.)
 25       Q.    Mr. Goldstein, what is the first page of 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  Exhibit 6?  I only asked you about the first page.
  3       A.    I am not sure what you asked me.
  4       Q.    What is it?
  5       A.    This looks like another web site that 
  6  mirrored the file or had a list of sites 
  7  themselves. 
  8       Q.    Do you know if they were replying to 
  9  your exhortation to help with respect to DeCSS? 
 10             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 
 11       the question.  He didn't -- that was not his 
 12       testimony.
 13             MR. GOLD:  I asked him if he knew 
 14       whether this web site published this 
 15       document because of his request for help in 
 16       the fight against the movie companies. 
 17             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 
 18       the question.
 19       A.    We encourage people to express 
 20  themselves and this is an example of someone 
 21  expressing themselves in ways that we would 
 22  certainly not sanction, or not support, rather.  
 23  Because I think it's rather immature.  I think a 
 24  lot of the facts are wrong and it just goes to show 
 25  that you cannot control what people say on the Net.  

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  Lots of times things aren't entirely right.  So 
  3  this is not a fair representation of any position 
  4  that we hold. 
  5       Q.    Well, it did result from your exhorting 
  6  other web sites to help.
  7       A.    I don't think we exhorted.
  8             MR. GARBUS:  Object to the form of the 
  9       question.
 10       A.    We basically explained to people how 
 11  they can express themselves as well if they so 
 12  chose.  And this is an example of somebody -- this 
 13  didn't help us in any way.  This is somebody 
 14  expressing themselves in an immature way.  We can't 
 15  control it.  It hurts us as well as it helps us.  
 16  We just explained to someone how they can do it.
 17       Q.    Didn't it help you that they were 
 18  posting DeCSS? 
 19       A.    No. 
 20             MR. GARBUS:  I'll object to it. 
 21       Q.    Can you tell they were posting DeCSS 
 22  from what is on page 1? 
 23             Why are you flipping?  I'd rather you 
 24  didn't.
 25       A.    I'm sorry.

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       Q.    And stay with the first page so you can 
  3  concentrate a bit?
  4       A.    OK, on the top I see a link, but again, 
  5  this is text.  I have no idea if that's a real link 
  6  or just something that went somewhere else.
  7       Q.    Have you ever seen this site?
  8       A.    I am not familiar with this site, no.  
  9       Q.    Now, when it says after number 3, "The 
 10  Men Behind The Madness,," what does that 
 11  mean?
 12       A.    I guess that's their view of us.  "The 
 13  men behind the madness" is not a view I share.  But 
 14  that's their perception and it's their right to say 
 15  it.  
 16       Q.    I think the second sentence reads, 
 17  quote, "Oh yeah and if you bitches (government)(DVD 
 18  ho's)(Feds) can't get the right facts, just don't 
 19  say anything you dumbasses, period." 
 20             What did "DVD ho's" mean, h-o apostrophe 
 21  s?
 22       A.    Without the help of anthropologists, I 
 23  don't think I can really interpret this. 
 24       Q.    The last line, "DON'T FUCKING COMPLAIN, 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  that refers to who? 
  3             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to it.  It 
  4       speaks for itself.  From reading it I can't 
  5       tell who it refers to.
  6       A.    I have no idea who this person is 
  7  talking to.  I mean, it's -- I don't see how I can 
  8  interpret something that I am completely unfamiliar 
  9  with as far as where it comes from or what they're 
 10  trying to say.  I get a vague sense that they -- 
 11  they are trying to support us, but just not doing a 
 12  very good job of it in my view, but I am not going 
 13  to interpret what they meant.
 14       Q.    Did you make any effort whatsoever to 
 15  isolate your transmission of DeCSS to sites that 
 16  were involved with education or fair use or 
 17  cryptography?
 18       A.    Do you mean control who got to our site 
 19  and download the file?
 20       Q.    Control who got 2600, who got DeCSS from 
 21  2600.
 22       A.    We don't have controls like that for 
 23  anything we do.  Anybody is free to read our web 
 24  site.  We don't ask who is reading our web site.  
 25  We don't keep track of the people doing it.  We 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  don't ask their motives, so no.
  3       Q.    Is it true that when you posted DeCSS 
  4  you knew in fact that all sorts of people who had 
  5  nothing to do with education or fair use or 
  6  cryptography or reverse engineering would download 
  7  it from your site?
  8       A.    If they so chose.
  9       Q.    You knew that.
 10       A.    I didn't know they would do it, but I 
 11  knew it was possible, certainly.
 12       Q.    Didn't you believe it was far more 
 13  possible that people who had nothing to do with 
 14  cryptography or fair use would download it since 
 15  there was ever so much more of them than they are 
 16  of those who are involved in education and 
 17  cryptography? 
 18       A.    No,  I had no reason to jump to that 
 19  conclusion.
 20       Q.    Wasn't that common sense? 
 21             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.  It's not 
 22       common sense. 
 23  MO         MR. GOLD:  Do you want to mark that too, 
 24       please.  
 25       A.    I believe the people that would download 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  these files were people who were interested in the 
  3  technology.  And as I have already said, it's not a 
  4  method for copying DVDs, so you would have to know 
  5  something of what you're doing in order to even 
  6  make use of these files.  So while people may have 
  7  downloaded it, I don't think they understood it or 
  8  got anything out of it other than clicking on 
  9  something.
 10             MR. GOLD:  Martin, I tried to avoid 
 11       this, but since there will be many more of 
 12       your witnesses who will be testifying in the 
 13       next two weeks, I am going to have to bring 
 14       this up with the court, I believe.  I will 
 15       review it when I get it, but I think you're 
 16       doing something that's uniquely improper.  I 
 17       know you disagree and I really didn't want 
 18       to bother the court with it.  I pleaded with 
 19       you to stop, but I guess it has to be.  I'll 
 20       review it. 
 21       Q.    In any event, after reading page 1 of 
 22  Exhibit 6, would you say that this web site or the 
 23  persons connected with this web site were involved 
 24  in any educational purpose with respect to DeCSS or 
 25  cryptography or --

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       A.    It's impossible for me to assess the 
  3  knowledge of the people behind this.  For all I 
  4  know, these are, you know, educated people writing 
  5  things just to be funny.  But my initial view is 
  6  that it's immature people that don't really know 
  7  the facts.  They just want to do some posturing.
  8       Q.    Well, then, do you believe these people 
  9  may well be cryptographers?
 10       A.    It's impossible for me to say.
 11       Q.    You don't know whether they are or not?
 12       A.    No, how could I say?  It's text on a 
 13  page. 
 14       Q.    Do you know any cryptographers?
 15       A.    I know some, yes.
 16       Q.    Any like this?
 17             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.
 18       A.    Any like this?  Not that I have ever 
 19  seen, no.
 20       Q.    But that doesn't give you any clue with 
 21  respect to these people.
 22       A.    I have no idea who these people are.  
 23  That's what I am trying to say.
 24       Q.    Turning to page 3 of that exhibit, the 
 25  third page, they are not numbered, it's the one 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  that begins, and I quote, fuck the system, close 
  3  quote.  Do you have it?
  4       A.    I do. 
  5       Q.    What web site is this? 
  6       A.    I am not sure. 
  7       Q.    Can you tell by looking?
  8       A.    Actually, it's a different site than the 
  9  one we were just looking at., 
 10  according to the URL at the bottom of the page.
 11       Q.    Did you ever see this page before?
 12       A.    I don't recognize it, no.
 13       Q.    Near the end of the text the following 
 14  sentence appears.  "Sites like this one are going 
 15  up by the minute."  Close quote.  Is that true?  
 16  Were they?
 17       A.    A lot of sites went up.  I don't know if 
 18  it was by the minute.  I don't know how many 
 19  exactly.  We eventually had to stop putting them up 
 20  ourselves because we just didn't have the manpower 
 21  to be constantly adding sites. 
 22       Q.    You don't know anyone connected with 
 23  this site?
 24       A.    No.  
 25       Q.    Did you say you didn't think you had 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  seen it before?
  3       A.    I don't think so, no.
  4       Q.    Was it attached to your affidavit, do 
  5  you know?
  6       A.    No, I don't recall seeing that before. 
  7       Q.    Now, this particular document taken from 
  8  the web site that you mentioned contains about 18 
  9  pages.  What do you understand pages 2 through 18 
 10  to be?
 11       A.    It looks like a list of sites that also 
 12  have DeCSS on them. 
 13       Q.    Do you believe the site from which this 
 14  document comes was trying to promote cryptography?
 15       A.    I can't really testify to their motives.  
 16  Just by reading these few words here.  I see some 
 17  factual misconceptions.  I see some things that are 
 18  accurate.  It's impossible for me to say what the 
 19  motivation of the people behind this is. 
 20       Q.    Well, do the words forming the title of 
 21  this message, "fuck the system," give you any view 
 22  as to or any clue as to what the motive was?
 23       A.    I think it would be wrong for me to 
 24  judge without any further information as to what 
 25  these people are saying.  How do you define what 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  system is it they are talking about?  Maybe they 
  3  are talking about a computer operating system.  Who 
  4  knows?  I think it would be wrong for me to jump to 
  5  conclusions. 
  6             MR. GARBUS:  Can I ask you a question, 
  7       Mr. Gold?  The date on this is March 23rd.  
  8       At least that seems to be the date on the 
  9       bottom of this.  Do you know where these 
 10       documents came from? 
 11             MR. GOLD:  Yes. 
 12             MR. GARBUS:  OK.  Would you care to 
 13       tell us? 
 14             MR. GOLD:  No.  
 15       Q.    Turning to the document in Exhibit 6 
 16  that follows the 18-page document, --
 17       A.    "Technomancers of Dark Technology"? 
 18       Q.    That's it.  What site does that appear 
 19  to come from?
 20       A.    According to this, it says 
 21  "  Actually, the site would be 
 22  just the latter part of that,  And they 
 23  named the machine.
 24       Q.    Are you familiar with the site?
 25       A.    No.

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       Q.    Or the people involved with the site?
  3       A.    No, I don't recognize any names, no.  
  4       Q.    Looking at the page, can you tell 
  5  whether this is a response to your message to other 
  6  web sites to help in the fight against the motion 
  7  picture companies?
  8             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 
  9       the question.
 10       A.    It's a response.  I don't know if it's a 
 11  response because of us, because it says 2600 and 
 12  all of the computer users.  It could be a response 
 13  to any of the other sites that had links up. 
 14             I can't even say for sure that the links 
 15  were here, because all it says is "files can be 
 16  found here."  But there is no indication that the 
 17  files actually were there. 
 18       Q.    Is there a clue in the words, quote, 
 19  support 2600 in the DVD encryption dispute, close 
 20  quote?
 21       A.    Yes.
 22       Q.    What clue?
 23       A.    Well, support 2600 obviously means 
 24  they support us.  It doesn't mean it's a response 
 25  to something we said.  They could have gotten this 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  from someone else as well.
  3       Q.    Is it true that your site only links to 
  4  sites which have furnished you with their URL?
  5       A.    Yes.
  6             MR. GARBUS:  Can I hear the question 
  7       again? 
  8             (A portion of the record was read.)
  9       Q.    Is it true that those sites which have 
 10  posted DeCSS or mirrored your site containing DeCSS 
 11  that in fact supplied you with their URLs did so to 
 12  enable 2600 to link with them? 
 13             MR. GARBUS:  Object to the form of the 
 14       question.
 15       A.    Not necessarily.  Lots of sites existed 
 16  already and in fact, our mirror, our list of 
 17  mirrors was not the biggest out there.  There were 
 18  other such lists.  And sometimes what we would do 
 19  is simply look at the other list and copy some of 
 20  those ones. 
 21             So actually, I have to correct myself.  
 22  It wasn't always submitted to us.  Sometimes we 
 23  went out and saw another site that had more links 
 24  and just added to our list. 
 25       Q.    When you saw the other sites that you 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  added to your list of sites you were linking to, 
  3  did you read them and see what they said?
  4       A.    All we did was very quickly, and 
  5  actually, we had a few people do this because there 
  6  were just so many of them, just quickly go through 
  7  and see if in fact they were links to the files 
  8  there, because that's what we were representing 
  9  them as, as links to DeCSS.
 10       Q.    The text would have been irrelevant.
 11       A.    The text was not something we focused on 
 12  only because there was so much of it.
 13       Q.    I don't know what that means, I didn't 
 14  focus on it.  Did you not totally ignore it? 
 15             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.
 16       A.    We didn't tell people to go and ignore 
 17  it.  But basically what we told the people who were 
 18  helping us was, are the files there?  If so, we add 
 19  it.  Because we had to go through hundreds of sites 
 20  in a relatively short period of time.
 21       Q.    Is there any difference between that and 
 22  ignoring the text on the site? 
 23             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 
 24       the question.  It's argumentative.
 25       A.    Only that we didn't tell people to 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  ignore it.  We told people to tell us if the site, 
  3  if the file was there.  So, no, we didn't tell 
  4  people to ignore it.  Did they ignore it to find 
  5  the file?  Perhaps.
  6       Q.    So that I gather, those people who you 
  7  instructed in the way you just testified to would 
  8  have included the site even if the site talked 
  9  about copying the movie?
 10       A.    It's possible. 
 11       Q.    You wouldn't --
 12       A.    It's possible.  We didn't proofread 
 13  other people's sites.
 14       Q.    When you encouraged people to download 
 15  DeCSS, did you regard that as a journalistic 
 16  function?
 17       A.    Well, I think we encouraged people to 
 18  download.
 19             MR. GARBUS:  Object to the form of the 
 20       question.
 21       A.    To download DeCSS.  We had it there for 
 22  people who were interested in it and we had a story 
 23  about it.  We didn't tell people to download it who 
 24  had no interest in it obviously.
 25       Q.    Were you linking to any sites before the 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  court issued its injunction?
  3       A.    We initially started by linking to sites 
  4  back in the fall. 
  5       Q.    How many is that?
  6       A.    I can't recall specifically how many.
  7       Q.    So you say you started by linking in the 
  8  fall of '99.
  9       A.    Uh-huh. 
 10       Q.    Thereafter did you stop and solely post?
 11       A.    We started -- my recollection is we 
 12  started by linking.  And then as those sites were 
 13  threatened, we became a link ourselves by posting 
 14  the program on our site.  And then there was no 
 15  need to -- we might have still kept up a list of 
 16  links in addition to that.
 17       Q.    But you don't know that.
 18       A.    I don't know for sure.  I would have to 
 19  look at the records.
 20             MR. GARBUS:  Leave a space in the 
 21       deposition.  We'll get you an answer.
 22             MR. GOLD:  The problem with that is I 
 23       don't know whose answer. 
 24             MR. GARBUS:  We'll tell you.
 25       A.    It's also on the web site.  As I said, 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  we keep our pages up except for when courts tell us 
  3  to take them down.  But it's all there the way it 
  4  was. 
  5       Q.    Did you increase your linking after the 
  6  court injunction?
  7       A.    We didn't increase so much as more sites 
  8  were submitted to us and more sites popped up and 
  9  it became, you know, it just kind of got out of 
 10  hand actually, because we couldn't handle the 
 11  number that were coming to us. 
 12       Q.    How many did you put up that you linked 
 13  to yourself?
 14       A.    Me personally? 
 15       Q.    Anybody at 2600.  
 16       A.    It would have to be over a hundred, and 
 17  this is within a few days of the injunction.
 18       Q.    So it's over a hundred links that you 
 19  yourself put up.
 20       A.    That I was aware of.  I don't know how 
 21  many specific --
 22       Q.    That was right after the court's 
 23  injunction?
 24       A.    Yes.  I believe it was --
 25       Q.    Why?

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       A.    -- the day of or the day after.
  3       Q.    Why?
  4       A.    It was basically a reaction that various 
  5  people in the community had.
  6       Q.    A reaction to the -- I am talking about 
  7  you.  You put up a hundred.  What reaction did you 
  8  have to the court injunction that caused you to do 
  9  that?
 10       A.    Our immediate reaction to the court 
 11  injunction was to take the files down.  We had 
 12  already had, I believe, links to other sites, and 
 13  when we started getting massive submissions, we 
 14  realized that we had to post those as well as part 
 15  of the story, because that was becoming a part of 
 16  the story.
 17       Q.    Now, you testified I believe that 2600 
 18  itself decided to link to over a hundred sites 
 19  pretty soon after the court injunction.
 20       A.    Uh-huh. 
 21       Q.    Why? 
 22       A.    Because as I said, that became the 
 23  story.  The fact that all these other sites were 
 24  popping up and that this was something that simply 
 25  wasn't going to go away, that became part of the 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  story and we had to show what was going on.  That 
  3  was a very major part.
  4       Q.    Under oath I am asking you didn't you do 
  5  the linking of those one hundred sites because you 
  6  were showing the court, well, if you think you can 
  7  stop us, you can't?
  8       A.    No, that was not the -- 
  9       Q.    Not at all. 
 10       A.    That was not our rationale behind it.  
 11  The rationale was that this is a program that is 
 12  out there.  We followed the injunction to the 
 13  letter.  In fact, the court even addressed the 
 14  issue of linking and found that it was a different 
 15  issue and did not rule on it.  So we took that to 
 16  mean that it was a different issue.  And that 
 17  linking was perfectly OK. 
 18             And if we were going to be shut down, 
 19  you know, we were going to be told not to link, 
 20  then obviously all the other sites that were 
 21  linking, including Yahoo and Alta Vista, would have 
 22  to be told the same thing.
 23       Q.    Did you have a conversation with any 
 24  lawyer --
 25       A.    Yes.

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       Q.    -- before you linked?
  3       A.    Um --
  4       Q.    After the court issued its injunction.
  5       A.    We had conversations with lawyers at 
  6  that time. 
  7       Q.    Don't tell me what they were.  Could you 
  8  name who they were?
  9       A.    Allon Levy, Robin Gross, the Electronic 
 10  Frontier Foundation in California.
 11             MR. GOLD:  Before you switch, Martin, 
 12       you told me you wanted to break at 12:30.  
 13       We said yes, if that's when you want to 
 14       break.  And you have also kindly volunteered 
 15       to try to finish tonight even if we have to 
 16       stay a little late. 
 17             MR. GARBUS:  Yes.  
 18             MR. GOLD:  I can't tell if it will or 
 19       not.  
 20             THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  The time is 12:26 
 21       p.m. and this completes tape number 3 of the 
 22       videotape deposition of Mr. Emmanuel 
 23       Goldstein. 
 24             (A luncheon recess was taken at 
 25       12:26 p.m.)        

  1                     Goldstein 
  2           A F T E R N O O N    S E S S I O N
  3                (Time noted:  2:06 p.m.)
  4             THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  The time is 2:06 
  5       p.m. and this begins tape number 4 of the 
  6       videotape deposition of Mr. Emmanuel 
  7       Goldstein.
  8  E M M A N U E L   G O L D S T E I N , resumed and 
  9       testified as follows:
 10  EXAMINATION BY (Cont'd.)
 11  MR. GOLD: 
 12       Q.    Mr. Goldstein, do I understand correctly 
 13  that your testimony was that you were posting and 
 14  later linking to other sites that were posting 
 15  DeCSS because that posting and that linking was a 
 16  part of your journalistic story?
 17       A.    That was part of the story, yes, that's 
 18  correct. 
 19       Q.    When did you write the story?
 20       A.    Well, the initial story was written I 
 21  believe it was early November on our site, and that 
 22  was the story that described the development which 
 23  at the time we were -- we had only sketchy details 
 24  about.  We reported what we knew.  And then later 
 25  we became part of the story, and that's when we 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  started writing a lot more about it.
  3       Q.    You didn't write about it every day, did 
  4  you?
  5       A.    No.  
  6       Q.    How long were you posting?
  7       A.    I'm sorry, how long what?  Was I 
  8  posting?
  9       Q.    Posting DeCSS on the 2600.
 10       A.    I think we first posted it in late 
 11  November.
 12       Q.    And you posted it late November right up 
 13  until the court injunction?
 14       A.    Yes.  As soon as the court injunction 
 15  happened, I believe it was January 20th, that's 
 16  when we took it down.
 17       Q.    So you were posting for close to two 
 18  months.
 19       A.    Yes.
 20       Q.    24 hours a day.
 21       A.    Well, it's just up.  Yes.
 22             MR. GARBUS:  Can I hear the end of it?  
 23             (A portion of the record was read.) 
 24       Q.    Can you tell me why that posting for two 
 25  months every day 24 hours a day was necessary to 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  your story?
  3       A.    Well, it's --
  4             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to it.
  5       A.    Every story on our site is up 24 hours a 
  6  day constantly until the end of time.  So it's not 
  7  like we were sitting there saying, you know, it's 
  8  up 24 hours day and night.  It was a story and 
  9  people continued to have an interest in that story, 
 10  and that interest continues till today.
 11       Q.    Can you tell us why posting every day 
 12  was necessary for the story?
 13       A.    Well, as I've said --
 14             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.
 15       A.    -- we did not post it every day.  We 
 16  posted it once and it stayed up.
 17       Q.    You didn't take it down, did you?
 18       A.    No.  It's one action, posting it.  We 
 19  took it down when we were ordered to take it down.
 20       Q.    Yes, but you could have taken it down 
 21  any day within that two-month period, couldn't you 
 22  have, if you wanted to?
 23       A.    If we wanted to, yes, but we didn't take 
 24  it down.
 25       Q.    Why not?

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       A.    Because we felt it was right to have it 
  3  on our site.  We felt it was part of the story.
  4       Q.    But I am trying to understand why the 
  5  words "DeCSS" on your site for two months was 
  6  necessary to the story. 
  7       A.    Because that is what the story centers 
  8  around.  For instance, if the story centered around 
  9  the picture, we'd show the picture.  And this was 
 10  the picture.  This was the story that everybody was 
 11  focused on.  To take it down without a court order 
 12  would have been wrong in a journalistic sense.
 13       Q.    But you weren't writing a new story 
 14  about DeCSS every day, were you?
 15       A.    No, and we didn't post it every day.  We 
 16  posted it once. 
 17       Q.    And you didn't take it down for two 
 18  months, right?
 19       A.    We didn't take anything down. 
 20             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.  Asked and 
 21       answered.
 22       Q.    How long have you been linking to other 
 23  sites that post DeCSS?
 24       A.    As I said earlier, I believe we had 
 25  links up from the beginning.  That is, before we 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  even had it up on our site.  I would have to check 
  3  to make absolutely certain about that, but the vast 
  4  majority of links started coming into us after the 
  5  injunction was granted. 
  6       Q.    And you have been linking to many other 
  7  sites posting DeCSS ever since?
  8       A.    We posted the list of what we had 
  9  received, and this went on for I think a few weeks 
 10  until we just got overwhelmed with it, and we had 
 11  to do other things, so we stopped updating it.
 12       Q.    So you have been linking to many other 
 13  sites containing DeCSS for about five months at 
 14  least?
 15       A.    I would say that's about right, yes.
 16       Q.    Every day.
 17       A.    Well, as I said, we don't take things 
 18  down.
 19       Q.    That's because you decide not to, I 
 20  gather.
 21       A.    Uh-huh. 
 22       Q.    Why was linking to over a hundred or 
 23  more sites that post DeCSS necessary to your 
 24  journalistic story?
 25             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       A.    Because that was part of the story.  The 
  3  story was that hundreds of sites were springing up 
  4  and showing support in various ways, all of which 
  5  had one thing in common, that they were posting the 
  6  source of this program, and we thought that was the 
  7  story right there.  That was something that 
  8  deserved attention, to show just how many people 
  9  were out there and what they were doing. 
 10       Q.    And it was necessary to the story to 
 11  show that every day for five months?
 12       A.    It was the story.  And the stories stay 
 13  up.  So the story will be up forever.  Until --
 14       Q.    I see.
 15       A.    That's how it works.
 16       Q.    Well, is it true that every story you 
 17  write in your magazine is vibrant and alive every 
 18  single day for the rest of eternity? 
 19             MR. GARBUS:  Objection. 
 20       Q.    Or just your life?
 21       A.    Are you referring to the magazine or to 
 22  the web site? 
 23       Q.    Web site.
 24       A.    I wouldn't say that they all keep 
 25  interest as long as this one has, no.  

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       Q.    But if you didn't write a story every 
  3  day about DeCSS, why would you have to keep linking 
  4  to DeCSS every day 24 hours a day for five months?
  5       A.    I am not sure I understand that 
  6  question. 
  7       Q.    You don't understand it.
  8       A.    I am not sure I understand what you're 
  9  saying.
 10             MR. GOLD:  Could you read it back to 
 11       the witness. 
 12             (A portion of the record was read.)
 13       A.    I am not sure if you're saying that by 
 14  our writing stories that we're perpetuating the 
 15  need to link.  Is that your --
 16       Q.    No, you weren't writing stories every 
 17  day for five months.
 18       A.    We wrote stories whenever something new 
 19  happened in the case.
 20       Q.    But every single day whether you wrote 
 21  stories or didn't about DeCSS you linked to other 
 22  sites containing DeCSS for over five months?
 23       A.    As I've said, the story that we wrote 
 24  that had all the links remains up.  Because that 
 25  was a story -- I believe it was written in January, 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  and that has the list of all of the links, and 
  3  that's just there.  Just like the story we may have 
  4  written last week will be there in five months. 
  5       Q.    But it stays there because you don't 
  6  take it down, isn't that correct?
  7       A.    We don't take down our stories, no.  
  8       Q.    You take them down when the court orders 
  9  you to.
 10       A.    When the court orders us to take 
 11  something down, we take it down.
 12       Q.    Is there any other reason that you can 
 13  give me for why this posting and linking that we 
 14  have been discussing are part of your journalistic 
 15  story?  You don't have to repeat anything that 
 16  you've said already.  I am asking if you know any 
 17  other reasons or have any other reasons for saying 
 18  that.
 19       A.    I think I've covered it all.
 20       Q.    I see.  Will you keep linking to the web 
 21  sites posting DeCSS even if the pace of 
 22  technological change allows rapid transmission of 
 23  movies over the Internet? 
 24             MR. GARBUS:  I object to that.  You're 
 25       asking the witness to speculate.

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       A.    My answer is yes because it's 
  3  irrelevant. 
  4       Q.    Do you plan to keep linking to web sites 
  5  posting DeCSS even if the pace of technological 
  6  change makes the storage of movies on a hard drive 
  7  much easier, takes much less space? 
  8             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question.  
  9       It calls for speculation.
 10       A.    I would say the same thing.  It's 
 11  irrelevant to what the story is about. 
 12       Q.    So you will keep right on linking or 
 13  posting if the court allows to.
 14             MR. GARBUS:  I object. 
 15             MR. GOLD:  Strike that.
 16       Q.    Then I gather no matter what 
 17  technological developments may bring, your plans 
 18  are to keep posting and linking DeCSS unless the 
 19  court stops it. 
 20             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.  Calls for 
 21       speculation.
 22       A.    I can repeat what I said about we keep 
 23  stories on our web site because it's how we present 
 24  our stories.  We don't take things down.  If we're 
 25  directed to take it down, we take it down.

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       Q.    So the answer to my question is yes.
  3       A.    I suppose, yes.
  4       Q.    Are your plans to keep linking to DeCSS 
  5  web sites even were you to determine that hundreds 
  6  of thousands of movies were being transmitted over 
  7  the Internet? 
  8             MR. GARBUS:  Object on the grounds it 
  9       calls for speculation.
 10       A.    Again, I have to repeat.
 11       Q.    Your answer would be the same.
 12       A.    My answer would be the same. 
 13       Q.    So your current plans are to do all of 
 14  these things no matter which of the changes that I 
 15  have just mentioned take place; is that true?
 16       A.    Again, it's -- I can't speculate on 
 17  that.  Our site is a representation of new stories.  
 18  That is part of the news story. 
 19       Q.    So your plans would remain to keep 
 20  posting or linking. 
 21             MR. GARBUS:  I will object.
 22       Q.    Is that true?
 23             MR. GARBUS:  I will object on the 
 24       grounds of it calls for speculation.
 25       A.    I can't answer any further based on 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  that.
  3       Q.    Did you testify before, I can't 
  4  remember, that you were familiar with Napster?
  5       A.    I said I used it maybe once or twice. 
  6       Q.    So you know how it works?
  7       A.    I have a vague knowledge of how it 
  8  works.  I am no expert.
  9       Q.    Do you know that it's a system which 
 10  allows members of the public with Internet access 
 11  to share files of songs with each other?
 12       A.    My understanding of it is that it allows 
 13  people to -- it's kind of like a directory.  It 
 14  points people at sites. 
 15       Q.    So they can exchange music?  Is that 
 16  your understanding?
 17       A.    I don't know what the intent is.  I 
 18  mean, that's --
 19       Q.    Well, when you used it did you use it to 
 20  download some music you found on Napster?
 21       A.    I used it to see how the program worked, 
 22  to see what the fuss was all about, to see if it 
 23  actually worked.
 24       Q.    Did you download music?
 25       A.    I listened to one song.

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       Q.    Does that mean you downloaded it on to 
  3  your hard drive?
  4       A.    Yes, it was downloaded.  That's the way 
  5  it works.  You connect to somebody's site and you 
  6  listen to it.
  7       Q.    Do you know whether or not there are 
  8  sites in the United States today that offer such 
  9  file sharing for both movies and records?
 10       A.    I am not aware of any.
 11       Q.    If you were to find out that there were, 
 12  would you stop posting or linking to DeCSS? 
 13             MR. GARBUS:  I object on the grounds 
 14       that it calls for speculation. 
 15       Q.    If you found that out would you plan to 
 16  keep on, do you now plan to keep on posting and 
 17  linking?
 18       A.    I can't answer that.  It's based on a 
 19  speculation.  I can't really --
 20       Q.    You don't know one way or another; is 
 21  that right?
 22       A.    Other than what I have already testified 
 23  to.
 24       Q.    Well, you've already testified that it's 
 25  not the point.  But I don't know if that's your 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  answer to this question. 
  3             MR. GARBUS:  I object to --
  4       Q.    Is it?
  5             MR. GARBUS:  -- your summing up what 
  6       he's testified to.
  7       Q.    Is that right?
  8       A.    My answer is what I have given, which 
  9  is --
 10       Q.    Which is what?
 11       A.    What I've said.
 12       Q.    Which is what? 
 13             MR. GARBUS:  I object.  He's already 
 14       testified that it was speculation. 
 15       Q.    Which is what, Mr. Goldstein?
 16       A.    Which is that it's irrelevant to the 
 17  story.
 18       Q.    And you would keep posting and linking.
 19       A.    We have already posted.  It's not a 
 20  question of continuing to post.  It's a question of 
 21  we've done this.
 22       Q.    You wouldn't take down your posts or 
 23  your links?
 24       A.    We take down our sites when we're 
 25  legally obligated to take down our -- our links 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  rather.
  3       Q.    Someone would have to get another 
  4  injunction if one wanted to get you to take it down 
  5  at that point.  Is that true?
  6             MR. GARBUS:  I object.  He didn't say 
  7       that.  He said --
  8             MR. GOLD:  Well, let's ask him what he 
  9       said.  I asked him if that were true.
 10             MR. GARBUS:  No, no.  He said --
 11  MO         MR. GOLD:  Do you want to mark this 
 12       again?
 13             MR. GARBUS:  That's not what he said. 
 14             Can we hear the witness's last answer.  
 15             (A portion of the record was read.)
 16       Q.    Do you know whether or not the vast 
 17  majority of sites to which you were linking contain 
 18  object code versions of DeCSS? 
 19             MR. GARBUS:  He has already -- you 
 20       have already asked him that and he's already 
 21       answered.
 22       Q.    You can answer.
 23       A.    As far as my understanding, it's in a 
 24  variety of formats.  I am not -- I am not certain 
 25  if object code is one of them. 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       Q.    Does that mean you don't know?
  3       A.    I don't know for sure. 
  4       Q.    Can you read object code?
  5       A.    No.  
  6       Q.    Can you read source code?
  7       A.    Not very well. 
  8       Q.    Are there any sites to which you link 
  9  where you know that DeCSS is being used in 
 10  connection with reverse engineering?
 11       A.    As I said before, I don't know the 
 12  motivation of what's going on in the heads of 
 13  people that are running other sites.  All we know 
 14  is those sites have programs.  That's the extent of 
 15  our knowledge.
 16       Q.    Do you understand that people involved 
 17  in reverse engineering could get DeCSS without 
 18  anyone posting or linking?
 19             MR. GARBUS:  Object to the form of the 
 20       question.
 21       A.    Sure.
 22       Q.    How?
 23       A.    If they already had the program -- if 
 24  they already had CSS themselves and they were able 
 25  to figure it all out, they could do it without even 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  being on the Net at all.
  3       Q.    Isn't there a chat room where people who 
  4  are involved in reverse engineering of CSS go to?
  5       A.    That I don't know. 
  6       Q.    You don't know?
  7       A.    No. 
  8       Q.    Is there a chat room to which people who 
  9  are involved in cryptographical research concerning 
 10  DeCSS can go to?
 11       A.    Again, I don't know.
 12       Q.    Did you ever try to find out?
 13       A.    No. 
 14             MR. GARBUS:  Can I ask you a question?  
 15       I won't if it's an interference.
 16             MR. GOLD:  It's interference.  I 
 17       prefer you just to say object and nothing 
 18       else whenever you do, but I don't know that 
 19       you will do that.
 20       Q.    Do you still have your May 3rd affidavit 
 21  in front of you?
 22       A.    There's no date on it.
 23       Q.    There is on the back page.
 24       A.    Oh, on the back page, OK.  Yes, I do. 
 25       Q.    If lawyers do something it's going to 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  come out backwards.
  3             Turning to paragraph 20 at page 7, I am 
  4  going to count down from the top, beginning with 
  5  the line that says "Our web site...."
  6       A.    OK. 
  7       Q.    Now, one, two, three, four, five, 
  8  six -- make it five lines down, "This web site is 
  9  an on-line...."  Do you see that?
 10       A.    Yes.  "This web site is an on-line 
 11  supplement to the content published in the print 
 12  magazine, with an emphasis on current news.  It 
 13  does not exist, as said in the injunction, to 
 14  distribute illegal code.  If we were interested in 
 15  doing this, we could easily do a more efficient job 
 16  and a less public one." 
 17       Q.    How?
 18       A.    Well, I am not involved in the world of 
 19  piracy, but I do know that if you wanted to 
 20  distribute something illegally you don't, um, you 
 21  don't  put it out for the whole world to see.  
 22  You -- criminal networks don't advertise.  They 
 23  exist secretly.  They're a lot more efficient when 
 24  people don't know about them.  If we believed this 
 25  was a crime, we wouldn't be doing it like this.

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       Q.    Well, you say here, "If we were 
  3  interested in doing this...." which I think means 
  4  the distribution, the illegal distribution of the 
  5  code.
  6       A.    Uh-huh. 
  7       Q.    ".... we could easily do a more 
  8  efficient job and a less public one." 
  9             I am asking you how you would do that. 
 10             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.  He just 
 11       answered.
 12             MR. GOLD:  No, he didn't.
 13       A.    It's a theoretical question.  I am not a 
 14  criminal.  I am not somebody who distributes things 
 15  illegally.  But I imagine if I was to do something 
 16  like this, the way I wouldn't do it would be to put 
 17  it on my web site and tell everybody about it.
 18       Q.    It was my impression that you were 
 19  swearing to the statement that we could do a more 
 20  efficient and less public job if we were distributing 
 21  illegal code.  I am asking you why you said that.
 22             MR. GARBUS:  I object to it.  The 
 23       sentence speaks for itself. 
 24       Q.    How would you do a more efficient, less 
 25  public job?

  1                     Goldstein 
  2             MR. GARBUS:  Object.  He just 
  3       answered.
  4       A.    I thought I just answered this too.  
  5  But what I am trying to point out is that if we 
  6  were involved in a criminal conspiracy of some 
  7  sort, the way we are doing it now, the way we have 
  8  it up on our web site, would be absolutely the 
  9  worst, most inefficient way to both engage in the 
 10  crime and distribute the criminal material.
 11       Q.    What would be the better way?
 12       A.    To have an organized network of people 
 13  that keep quiet, that don't tell the entire world 
 14  about it, to surreptitiously distribute the code 
 15  everywhere, were it to be used in a bad way for a 
 16  particular crime.  And that's not what this code is 
 17  about.  So I don't think it's relevant at all. 
 18       Q.    Weren't you describing the Internet?  
 19  People with false names, putting things out.  How 
 20  does anyone find you except by writing you an 
 21  E-mail?  How do they locate you?  How do they talk 
 22  to you in person?
 23       A.    The same way --
 24             MR GARBUS:  Objection.
 25       A.    -- people locate anything on the 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  Internet, through search engines, through publicity 
  3  at various --
  4       Q.    That just gets one to a web site.
  5       A.    What else are you asking? 
  6       Q.    Well, how would they find a person?  How 
  7  would they find a person to conspire with?
  8       A.    Again, if you're involved in a crime -- 
  9  I truly can't answer that, because I am not 
 10  involved in a crime.  So I don't know how they 
 11  would --
 12       Q.    Currently.  I mean, it's not like you 
 13  never did.  It's not like you were never involved. 
 14             MR. GARBUS:  Objection. 
 15       Q.    You have some --
 16             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.
 17       Q.    -- information about such things.
 18       A.    All I can do is theorize on that.
 19       Q.    All you can do is, as I remember it, is 
 20  break into other people's computers.
 21             MR. GARBUS:  Objection. 
 22       Q.    All you did do in the eighties --
 23             MR. GARBUS:  Objection. 
 24       Q.    -- that was criminal.  Is that right? 
 25             MR. GARBUS:  Objection. 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       A.    First of all that predates the 
  3  Internet.  And second of all, it's not all I did in 
  4  the eighties. 
  5       Q.    Paragraph 21, below paragraph 20, will 
  6  you read the first two sentences of that paragraph, 
  7  sir?
  8       A.    "The sites containing DeCSS mirrors to 
  9  which we currently link are very diverse in nature.  
 10  Some of the sites have simply put the files up as a 
 11  form of protest." 
 12       Q.    And the next sentence.
 13       A.    "Others explain exactly why they are 
 14  doing this as a social commentary."
 15       Q.    You go on to say, "Some are juvenile in 
 16  nature, using a tone that we would not employ 
 17  ourselves"; is that right?
 18       A.    As that site demonstrated, yes.
 19       Q.    The site that said what?
 20       A.    The site that you introduced as Exhibit 6. 
 21       Q.    What was juvenile about it?
 22       A.    The language was juvenile.  The attitude 
 23  was juvenile.
 24       Q.    Which language?
 25       A.    The multiple cursing and antigovernment 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  DVD "ho" speak.  It's not at all how we would 
  3  present ourselves. 
  4       Q.    Are there any web sites containing DeCSS 
  5  mirrors who are doing it solely to copy DVDs and 
  6  allow other people to copy DVDs?
  7       A.    I have never heard of one. 
  8       Q.    Is the answer you don't know or just --
  9       A.    My answer is no, I've never heard of 
 10  one. 
 11       Q.    No, you never heard of them. 
 12             Which sites do you know that have put 
 13  DeCSS on their web site solely as a form of social 
 14  protest?  Could you name those?
 15       A.    I would have to have a list.  I would 
 16  have to go through them.  I can think of -- I can 
 17  think of as a site that has posted the 
 18  source code.  And I know they are not juvenile in 
 19  nature.
 20       Q.    Which sites post DeCSS or link to DeCSS 
 21  that are composed only of professionals who go into 
 22  great detail as to what the programs do and how 
 23  they are used?
 24       A.    Again, you have to go down the list.
 25       Q.    Can you name any?

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       A.    Not off the top of my head, no.  
  3  Actually, that's not true.  I can think of one.  
  4 is one that has very intelligent views.  
  5  If I thought about it for a long time, I could 
  6  probably come up with a second one.  There are 
  7  various --
  8       Q.    Out of how many would you estimate?
  9       A.    I am not saying that's all there is out 
 10  of all --
 11       Q.    No, I am just asking you how many sites 
 12  are there today that post or link to other sites.
 13       A.    Oh, there are thousands.  I mean, we 
 14  have only a couple of hundred on our site, but 
 15  there are thousands.
 16       Q.    I see.  And you can think of only two 
 17  who do so as a form of social protest?
 18       A.    If you ask me how many were juvenile, I 
 19  can think of even less, because I don't memorize 
 20  URLs of web sites.
 21       Q.    Is it your understanding that DeCSS 
 22  enables users to defeat or bypass regional coding?
 23       A.    That's my understanding, that it's one 
 24  of the capabilities.
 25       Q.    Where did you get that understanding 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  from?
  3       A.    From technical information that I have 
  4  seen.  Talked to people on the Net.
  5       Q.    Can you name the people who identify any 
  6  of the information?
  7       A.    I believe I have seen this on a couple 
  8  of the sites that I mentioned just now.  I have 
  9  seen mention of that.  I know from talking to 
 10  people at conferences, from various other 
 11  exchanges, at 2600 meetings and just various casual 
 12  conversations that that is -- that is one of the 
 13  things that DeCSS is able to accomplish, defeating 
 14  region coding. 
 15       Q.    And what is region coding?
 16       A.    Region coding is an artificial control 
 17  that was implemented I believe by the DVD CCA to 
 18  prevent someone from watching a DVD in a different 
 19  country.  It's the equivalent of, if it happened to 
 20  a CD, you would not be able to buy a CD in England 
 21  and listen to it here.  Something that we're used 
 22  to doing.
 23       Q.    Do you know why plaintiffs use regional 
 24  coding?
 25       A.    I have no idea.  I tried to figure that 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  one out.
  3       Q.    You can't imagine.
  4       A.    I imagine it has something to do with 
  5  money.  That's as far as I can go. 
  6       Q.    Anything having anything to do with 
  7  money is bad. 
  8             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.
  9       A.    I didn't say that.
 10       Q.    How much do you make a year from your 
 11  magazine? 
 12       A.    In the range of 40 to 45,000.
 13             MR. GARBUS:  Let the record indicate 
 14       that I gave Mr. Gold the tax returns.  I 
 15       don't think it's relevant to this 
 16       deposition, but since it's more confidential 
 17       for a period of time, and rather than have a 
 18       difficult time with Mr. Gold, those 
 19       documents were furnished to him.
 20             MR. GOLD:  You are correct insofar as 
 21       you go, but you travel such a short 
 22       distance.  You came in here after lunch 
 23       today with a package that you put on the 
 24       table and you said contained some tax 
 25       returns. 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2             I assume you're telling the truth.  I 
  3       haven't had a chance to look into it yet.  
  4       That's the rest of it. 
  5             MR. LITVACK:  Let me interject.  I 
  6       believe you said they were marked 
  7       confidential? 
  8             MR. GARBUS:  The whole deposition is 
  9       marked confidential. 
 10             MR. LITVACK:   Oh, these documents.
 11             MR. GARBUS:  No, but I think 
 12       everything that goes into the deposition, as 
 13       I understand it, is confidential, all 
 14       documents, everything, until such time --
 15             MR. GOLD:  Until ten days, I think. 
 16             MR. GARBUS:  Until ten days and then 
 17       there has to be some kind of a procedure or 
 18       practice that we go through. 
 19       Q.    Is it your understanding that your 
 20  linking to sites containing DeCSS is a fair use?
 21       A.    That my linking in particular? 
 22       Q.    Would you like the question read back to 
 23  you?
 24       A.    I'm sorry? 
 25       Q.    Do you want the question read back?

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       A.    Yes. 
  3             (A portion of the record was read.)
  4             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question 
  5       on the grounds it calls for a legal 
  6       conclusion.
  7       A.    I am trying to understand it.  That's --
  8       Q.    You don't have any understanding then 
  9  about that.
 10       A.    It's -- it calls for a legal 
 11  interpretation.
 12       Q.    No, I am asking you for your 
 13  understanding as a journalist, if you have any.
 14       A.    I can't say I do on that particular 
 15  issue. 
 16       Q.    OK.  Is it true, sir, that you believe 
 17  you are lawfully linking to sites that post DeCSS?
 18       A.    Yes.
 19       Q.    Is a part of the reason for that belief 
 20  the use made of DeCSS by people who go to your web 
 21  site and then link over to another site that 
 22  contains DeCSS and then download it?
 23             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 
 24       the question. 
 25       Q.    In other words, I'm asking you whether 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  it's true that you believe it's appropriate for you 
  3  to link because of the use some people make of 
  4  DeCSS.  Like cryptography.
  5             MR. GARBUS:  Objection. 
  6       Q.    Like cryptographical research.  I'm 
  7  sorry, those are the same thing.  Like reverse 
  8  engineering.
  9             MR. GARBUS:  I object to that.  He has 
 10       already testified.  It's a bad question.
 11       A.    Our reason for initially posting the 
 12  material was for that very reason, and the linking 
 13  is a continuation of that.  So I suppose that would 
 14  be yes. 
 15       Q.    I see.
 16       A.    If I understand the question correctly. 
 17       Q.    And is it true that you can think of no 
 18  other way to give DeCSS to those people other than 
 19  by linking in the manner that you are doing it? 
 20             MR. GARBUS:  I object to that.  That 
 21       isn't what he said.
 22       A.    We're not thinking of ways to get it to 
 23  people.  We've posted it, we did post it on our 
 24  site.  It was part of a story.  The linking is also 
 25  part of the story. 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2             As I said before, if we wanted to 
  3  distribute it to people, I am sure there are a lot 
  4  more efficient ways of doing that.  That's not what 
  5  it was about.
  6       Q.    So you didn't link to other sites 
  7  containing DeCSS and you didn't originally post to 
  8  help cryptographers and to help reverse engineers. 
  9             MR. GARBUS:  I will object.
 10       Q.    Is that true? 
 11             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to the 
 12       question.
 13       A.    It's related, I mean, it's all part of 
 14  the quest for knowledge, and that's why the story 
 15  is of interest and that's why we put the story on 
 16  our site, so that people who are interested in 
 17  reverse engineering and cryptology, research in 
 18  that field, would have something to study, as 
 19  something to analyze and perhaps study something 
 20  else as a result of this.  
 21             MR. GOLD:  I am going to ask the 
 22       reporter to read that question back to you 
 23       and I am going to ask you if there's 
 24       anything you have to add to your answer. 
 25             (A portion of the record was read.)

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       Q.    Is it also true that you believed it was 
  3  appropriate to post or link the sites that post 
  4  DeCSS so that anyone in the country or in the world 
  5  who wanted to know about DeCSS could get DeCSS?
  6       A.    We believe knowledge should be available 
  7  to anyone, yes.
  8       Q.    So the answer is yes?
  9       A.    Yes.  
 10       Q.    You referred in your testimony to movie 
 11  reviewers who make clips of movies.
 12       A.    Uh-huh.
 13       Q.    And that was one fair use of DeCSS.  Do 
 14  you remember that?
 15       A.    That's an example of fair use, period, 
 16  yes.
 17       Q.    Can't the same thing be done by using a 
 18  CSS-licensed DVD player?
 19       A.    That's not my understanding of how the 
 20  technology works.
 21       Q.    It's not.
 22       A.    No.  You wouldn't be able to copy to 
 23  another medium such as videotape.
 24       Q.    Do you know whether a CSS-licensed DVD 
 25  player enables the user to fast forward through the 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  movie?
  3       A.    My understanding is that it does not.
  4       Q.    Where did you get that from?
  5       A.    I heard that from, again, numerous 
  6  sources in the community. 
  7       Q.    Which community?
  8       A.    The Linux community, open source 
  9  community, the hacking community.  And it's -- I 
 10  believe it's well documented in the specs for CSS, 
 11  that if that is not commonly used at the moment, 
 12  that the capability certainly exists for that to be 
 13  currently used.  That CSS enables that.
 14       Q.    If you have a view, what is your view of 
 15  how quickly technology is accelerating in regard to 
 16  the delivery of substantial amounts of file content 
 17  over the Internet? 
 18             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to the 
 19       witness speculating.  Go ahead.
 20       A.    It's advancing.  I wouldn't say it's 
 21  advancing extremely fast.  It's advancing.
 22       Q.    And that knowledge comes from --
 23       A.    Personal experience. 
 24       Q.    -- all these communities that you're 
 25  talking about.

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       A.    No, that's personal experience.  
  3  Obviously things do get faster.  But they are not 
  4  getting extremely fast.  I think we're a ways away 
  5  from that.
  6       Q.    How long is that, quote, a ways away --
  7             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 
  8       the question. 
  9       Q.    -- close quote?
 10       A.    I would consider it many, many years.
 11       Q.    And you heard that from these same 
 12  communities that you chat with?
 13       A.    I have heard that, but I have also 
 14  witnessed it myself.
 15       Q.    How can you witness things that haven't 
 16  happened?
 17       A.    No, I have witnessed the change, say, 
 18  between the early nineties and now.  And even if 
 19  you were to triple that, it still would not be 
 20  anything near what would be needed, what would be 
 21  needed to facilitate this.
 22       Q.    Is it your understanding that it's 
 23  impossible to create an unbreakable encryption 
 24  system? 
 25             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question.  

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       I will allow the witness to answer.  He is 
  3       not a cryptographer.
  4       A.    My understanding is that it's highly 
  5  unlikely.  Highly unlikely.  And I think that's my 
  6  personal view on it, my understanding.
  7       Q.    In your view is any encryption system no 
  8  matter how sophisticated subject to cracking if 
  9  enough time and effort is devoted to it?
 10             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to it.  He 
 11       is not a cryptographer.
 12       A.    My understanding is that given enough 
 13  time and effort, yes.
 14       Q.    And your understanding comes from?
 15       A.    Mostly my personal view.  Also 
 16  supplemented by various conversations I have had 
 17  over the years with people seeing how technology 
 18  advances.
 19             MR. GOLD:  We'll mark this as 
 20       Exhibit 7.
 21             (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 7, 2-page 
 22       document, 2600 News Archives, December 1999, 
 23       marked for identification, as of this date.)
 24       Q.    Turning to the second page of that, 
 25  Mr. Goldstein, the beginning of the first full 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  paragraph, second sentence, the beginning of the 
  3  first full paragraph on page 2, could you read the 
  4  first several sentences.
  5       A.    "We don't take this kind of thing 
  6  lightly.  We knew there were certain risks attached 
  7  to our taking a stand on the DVD issue.  That in 
  8  itself seems incredible to us as we had nothing to 
  9  do with the actual cracking of the encryption." 
 10       Q.    What were the risks that you referred 
 11  to?
 12       A.    The risks were basically we had seen 
 13  people being threatened simply for having DeCSS on 
 14  their web site, something that we found to be 
 15  inconceivable.  And we realized at that point, once 
 16  it started happening to us, or we -- actually, we 
 17  realized it as we posted the information on our 
 18  site that that could very well move over to us, as 
 19  it did, that there's risks involved in freedom of 
 20  speech.  There always are.
 21       Q.    In answering to the last question you 
 22  used the expression what would "move over to us."  
 23  And I don't know what that means, but I am going to 
 24  ask the reporter to read you your answer and I am 
 25  going to ask you to tell me what that means, what 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  would move to us.
  3             (A portion of the record was read.) 
  4       Q.    What would move over to us are the 
  5  words that are -- 
  6       A.    The threats, the intimidation. 
  7       Q.    And the threats you're referring to are 
  8  threats of lawsuits?
  9       A.    Threats of lawsuits and actual lawsuits, 
 10  yes.
 11       Q.    And what intimidation?  Is intimidation 
 12  something different from that?
 13       A.    No, I consider that intimidation right 
 14  there. 
 15       Q.    But you do believe that people in this 
 16  country have a right to take others to court when 
 17  they feel their rights have been violated?
 18       A.    It's the American way.
 19       Q.    You don't like that way when you're on 
 20  the defendants' side?
 21       A.    I don't think anybody likes to be on the 
 22  defending side of it, but there's nothing illegal 
 23  about it if that's what you're asking.
 24       Q.    But it's intimidating.
 25       A.    Yes, it absolutely can be. 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       Q.    Can you think of any way to avoid that 
  3  kind of intimidation?
  4             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 
  5       the question.
  6       A.    In this particular case I think some 
  7  kind of a dialogue, some kind of willingness to 
  8  learn from one's mistakes as far as developing 
  9  technology.  I think there's a lot to be learned 
 10  here.  I think we could have a strengthened 
 11  encryption system.  We can have something that will 
 12  work and won't fall apart quite as quickly as this 
 13  did.
 14       Q.    Later in this column, I for the first 
 15  time take great pleasure in your writing, and the 
 16  words that give me that pleasure are contained in 
 17  the middle of the next paragraph beginning with 
 18  "They may very well."  Would you read those two 
 19  lines?
 20             MR. GARBUS:  Mr. Gold, I think that if 
 21       you look at it, compliment aside, according 
 22       to the page you put down, this is not his 
 23       writing.  Someone else's. 
 24       Q.    Did you not write this?
 25       A.    I would have to look this over. 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       Q.    Why don't you give it a lookover. 
  3             MR. GARBUS:  Excuse me, Mr. Gold.  If 
  4       you look at the last sentence --
  5             MR. GOLD:  Mr. Garbus, there is no 
  6       question before the witness yet.  Do you 
  7       think you can refrain from making a speech?
  8             MR. GARBUS:  I am trying to help you. 
  9             MR. GOLD:  Good.  I am grateful for 
 10       your instinct, but I would prefer you not 
 11       help me.
 12       A.    I think this was a collaboration.  I 
 13  think most of the first part, including the first 
 14  two items before this, I mostly put together and 
 15  the rest is, um, the rest of the facts in here I 
 16  believe were done by our webmaster and I approved 
 17  it.
 18  MO         MR. GOLD:  Mr. Reporter, before the 
 19       witness answered the question, Mr. Garbus 
 20       stated on the record that this was not his 
 21       writing.  That statement was followed by the 
 22       witness's answer.  I would like you to mark 
 23       that. 
 24       Q.    Now, who wrote the two lines you read?
 25       A.    I believe that was written by our 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  webmaster, but again, I can't be one hundred 
  3  percent certain because this was -- I am not sure 
  4  when this was written.
  5       Q.    I think you gave me his name once 
  6  before, but I forget it.  Can you tell me who he 
  7  is?
  8       A.    His webmaster, E-mail address is 
  9  His first name is Micah.  And 
 10  that's pretty much -- I have met him a couple of 
 11  times and he is from California.  That's the extent 
 12  of my knowledge.
 13       Q.    That's where he is now.
 14       A.    Yes. 
 15       Q.    Do you have an address? 
 16       A.    I don't have an address.  I have an 
 17  E-mail address. 
 18       Q.    And what is it?
 19       A.
 20             MR. GOLD:  Mr. Garbus, I would like to 
 21       take Macki's deposition, probably for about 
 22       two hours or an hour and a half.
 23             MR. GARBUS:  I would have to contact 
 24       him.
 25             MR. GOLD:  Would you? 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2             MR. GARBUS:  I will try.
  3             MR. GOLD:  And let me know if -- can 
  4       you tell us how to make arrangements, or 
  5       perhaps make arrangements for us?  One of 
  6       the times that we're all going to be out 
  7       there anyway. 
  8             MR. GARBUS:  I don't know how we'd 
  9       work out those times, but yes, if I can.
 10             MR. GOLD:  It's going to be a very 
 11       fast thing.  If we fit it at the very 
 12       beginning.
 13             MR. GARBUS:  I am not clear about one 
 14       thing.  Maybe you can help me.
 15             MR. GOLD:  I would rather you not do.  
 16       After the deposition is over, we're off the 
 17       record, then I would be happy to discuss 
 18       with you anything you want to discuss. 
 19       Q.    Did you read this before it was 
 20  published on your web site?
 21       A.    Yes. 
 22       Q.    Did you believe it was true?
 23       A.    I believed it was -- yeah. 
 24       Q.    Which prosecutions does this refer to 
 25  from the clause "A recent look at prosecutions"?

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       A.    This is probably referring to various 
  3  cases that have been in the hacker community, 
  4  namely, the Kevin Metnick case, the Bernie S case.  
  5  This is over the course of years.  That's what is 
  6  meant by recent. 
  7       Q.    Recent is how many years?
  8       A.    Several.  Throughout the nineties.  I 
  9  consider that to be recent.  And --
 10       Q.    What new laws are referred to?
 11       A.    Laws like digital telephony, the DMCA,  
 12  Electronic Communications Privacy Act.  Laws such 
 13  as that. 
 14       Q.    Does this statement indicate 2600's view 
 15  that posting or linking to DeCSS was as a matter of 
 16  law illegal? 
 17             MR. GARBUS:  I object to it.  The 
 18       sentence speaks for itself.
 19       A.    I'm sorry.  Can you ask that one more 
 20  time? 
 21       Q.    Of course.  
 22             MR. GOLD:  Would you read that back to 
 23       the witness.
 24             (A portion of the record was read.)
 25       A.    No, absolutely not.  We never thought it 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  was illegal. 
  3       Q.    Do the two sentences you just read mean 
  4  that before you were involved in the lawsuit you 
  5  knew it was inappropriate to post DeCSS?
  6       A.    No.  
  7             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.
  8       A.    That's not what I said. 
  9       Q.    Does the sentence, "A recent look at 
 10  prosecutions and new laws seems to pave the way for 
 11  just this sort of thing," mean that these 
 12  prosecutions and the decisions in them and the new 
 13  laws make it illegal to post DeCSS? 
 14             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to the 
 15       witness interpreting sentences.  The 
 16       sentences say what they say.
 17       A.    I don't see it that way. 
 18       Q.    What way do you see it?
 19       A.    Could you read back the question? 
 20       Q.    Certainly. 
 21             (A portion of the record was read.)
 22       A.    Basically I am trying to interpret what 
 23  the sentence is communicating in terms of this 
 24  case. 
 25       Q.    Do you find that difficult to do? 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.
  3       A.    Basically what we were trying to say is 
  4  that there have been increasing numbers of 
  5  prosecutions in recent months, recent years, and 
  6  that something that was not considered to be at all 
  7  even questionably illegal could all of a sudden be 
  8  brought into court and people could wind up being 
  9  dragged through the legal system. 
 10             And what we had seen over many years 
 11  was, or recent years anyway, was people who just 
 12  got tired of the whole system who were dragged 
 13  through everything and were forced to give up 
 14  without ever having proven the case, having had the 
 15  case proven against them.  So it's hard for me to 
 16  recapture the mood that was around when this 
 17  article was written because it was back in 
 18  December.
 19       Q.    I didn't ask you for the mood.  I asked 
 20  you for what it says.
 21       A.    You have to sort of get into the mood to 
 22  see what the words are communicating and saying. 
 23       Q.    I don't find that to be true when I read 
 24  The New York Times.
 25             MR. GARBUS:  I object to that. 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       Q.    Do you find that difficulty?
  3       A.    Well, this is an opinion piece.  This is 
  4  different.
  5       Q.    When you're reading the editorial pages 
  6  of the The New York Times, do you find that not 
  7  knowing the mood of editorial writer?
  8             MR GARBUS:  Objection.
  9       A.    I think if you went back to, say, 1920 
 10  or something you might have some difficulty knowing 
 11  exactly what the person was talking about.  We have 
 12  seen a lot changes over the months, so I am trying 
 13  to gauge exactly what was written and by who. 
 14             MR. GARBUS:  I object to this 
 15       colloquy.
 16       Q.    Could you read the last sentence of the 
 17  same paragraph, sir?
 18       A.    "But all of the scare tactics in the 
 19  world will never erase the human need for knowledge 
 20  and the instinctive desire to figure out things, 
 21  regardless of whether or not we're, quote, supposed 
 22  to, end quote."
 23       Q.    What do the words "supposed to" mean in 
 24  that sentence?
 25       A.    I believe that's a reference to 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  knowledge being regulated.  In other words, people 
  3  being told that asking certain questions is wrong, 
  4  pursuing certain -- certain ways of figuring things 
  5  out is wrong.  And I believe at that time we had 
  6  been hearing a lot of talk along those lines, that 
  7  it would be one day illegal to do -- to even think 
  8  in certain ways.  So I think that's what this is 
  9  based on. 
 10       Q.    Does the expression "regardless of 
 11  whether or not we're 'supposed to'" include the 
 12  concept of whether or not what we do is illegal? 
 13             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.  The sentence 
 14       speaks for itself.
 15       A.    Could you read back the question.  I 
 16  want to make sure I answer it right.
 17       Q.    Sure. 
 18             (A portion of the record was read.)
 19       A.    I believe most definitely we did not 
 20  think anything that we were doing was illegal.
 21       Q.    I didn't ask you that.  I asked you if 
 22  the words "regardless of whether or not we're 
 23  'supposed to'" includes the concept regardless of 
 24  whether or not these things are legal.
 25       A.    No.

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       Q.    It does not. 
  3             MR. GARBUS:  I object to it.
  4       A.    Not in my understanding, no.  
  5       Q.    Well, did you understand at the time 
  6  this article was written that a citizen in this 
  7  country was expected to and supposed to follow the 
  8  law?
  9       A.    Yes.
 10       Q.    Do you recall whether or not you ever 
 11  wrote and published on your web site the statement 
 12  that big companies manipulate the courts in this 
 13  country?
 14       A.    I need to see a particular quote. 
 15       Q.    You don't remember whether or not you 
 16  ever said that?
 17       A.    Specifically in those words? 
 18       Q.    In words or in substance.
 19       A.    It's possible.  That's the best I can 
 20  do.  It's possible.  I don't know specifically if I 
 21  ever said that. 
 22             MR. GARBUS:  Mr. Gold, can I suggest 
 23       you show it to him? 
 24             MR. GOLD:  No.  Can I suggest that you 
 25       not interrupt?

  1                     Goldstein 
  2             I have to take a break, but I am going 
  3       to turn this over to my co-counsel for some 
  4       questions. 
  5             THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  The time is 3:05 p.m.  
  6       We're going off the record. 
  7             (A recess was taken.)
  8             THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  The time is 3:14 p.m.  
  9       We're back on the record. 
 11  MR. LITVACK: 
 12       Q.    Good afternoon, Mr. Goldstein.  My name 
 13  the Mark Litvack.  I am an attorney for the 
 14  plaintiffs in this action. 
 15             Your counsel indicated he handed us a 
 16  stack of documents this afternoon purporting to be 
 17  your tax returns.  I have handed to you the entire 
 18  stack. 
 19             Can you just tell us what it is?
 20       A.    These are tax returns, both corporate 
 21  and individual, going back to 1995. 
 22       Q.    I note they are not signed.
 23       A.    These are copies. 
 24       Q.    Are they exact copies of what was 
 25  actually filed with the Internal Revenue Service?

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       A.    These are copies that my accountant 
  3  supplied, so they are as exact as was possible to 
  4  get as far as I know. 
  5       Q.    So as far as you know, there is no 
  6  difference between this set and the set filed 
  7  absent your signature.
  8       A.    Right. 
  9       Q.    Is there something in there that you 
 10  know is not true and you later had to go file 
 11  either a change or you looked at it later and said, 
 12  Jeez, I should have changed that, or to the best of 
 13  your knowledge is everything in there true and 
 14  accurate?
 15       A.    Everything in there is true and 
 16  accurate.
 17             MR. GARBUS:  Mr. Litvack, if there were 
 18       any supplemental returns --
 19             THE WITNESS:  Yes, they would be in 
 20       there too.
 21             MR GARBUS:  -- I will check with the 
 22       accountant and get it to you.
 23             MR. LITVACK:  I am not suggesting 
 24       there is.  Sometimes people say, jeez, I 
 25       meant --

  1                     Goldstein 
  2             THE WITNESS:  Right. 
  3             MR. LITVACK:  That's it with that 
  4       document.
  5       Q.    In the last document --
  6             MR. GARBUS:  Do you want to mark it? 
  7             MR. LITVACK:  No, no need. 
  8       Q.    -- you commented in this piece, it was 
  9  commented that "it's one more example of a powerful 
 10  corporate entity trying to intimidate a bunch of 
 11  individuals through lawyers, guns and money." 
 12             You chuckle now as I read that to you.  
 13  What's the chuckle?
 14       A.    Well, I am not sure if those are my 
 15  words.  They're kind of -- I am not sure what the 
 16  word is.  Strident maybe? 
 17             I can understand the -- I can understand 
 18  some of the emotion behind it, but I don't think 
 19  that's something that I would say in quite that 
 20  way.
 21       Q.    It's fair to say that that's not fair 
 22  and accurate totally as regards to this case.
 23       A.    It's an opinion.  It's an opinion piece.
 24       Q.    Well, the "guns" part is pure hyperbole, 
 25  is it not? 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       A.    I think that's a reference to law 
  3  enforcement or, you know, whatever else the writer 
  4  may have been trying to convey.
  5       Q.    You talked earlier about some of the 
  6  sites being juvenile in nature.  Do you remember 
  7  that conversation?
  8       A.    Today you mean? 
  9       Q.    Today.
 10       A.    Yes.
 11       Q.    It's a quote from your declaration.
 12       A.    OK, yes, my declaration too.
 13       Q.    And you said, as I understand it, they 
 14  are juvenile in nature, I guess the example you 
 15  gave, the language they use.
 16       A.    Yes. 
 17       Q.    Is that fair?
 18       A.    Well, the language they use, yeah, the 
 19  way they look. 
 20       Q.    The example that was read to you earlier 
 21  using foul language --
 22       A.    Yes, this here. 
 23       Q.    -- Exhibit Number 6, is an example of 
 24  that.
 25       A.    Uh-huh. 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       Q.    Is it fair to say though, are you 
  3  telling us that you yourself do not use that sort 
  4  of language in regards to the Internet or 
  5  communicating ideas?
  6       A.    I don't think so. 
  7       Q.    Never.  Never have.
  8       A.    I can't -- I don't think even twenty 
  9  years ago I would have used that kind of language.
 10       Q.    And specifically the kind of language 
 11  here is what word is it?
 12       A.    It's not so much the words.  It's 
 13  just -- just the tone, you know, all caps and 
 14  basically targeting people and labeling people.  
 15  It's not the kind of thing I do.
 16       Q.    The foul language, is that something you 
 17  would do?
 18       A.    Again, language is something I think is 
 19  open to interpretation.  This I consider to be foul 
 20  language.  Does that mean every time those 
 21  particular words are used it's foul?  We can have a 
 22  discussion about that.  I'm not sure. 
 23             You might be able to point to me using a 
 24  word in some other context, and I don't think it 
 25  would have the same connotation as it does here. 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       Q.    Is there any words there that you 
  3  consider to be foul in and of themselves that you 
  4  would not use when it comes to the Internet? 
  5             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to this.  I 
  6       don't see the relevancy as to this case.  If 
  7       you have something you want to show to him, 
  8       show it to him.
  9       A.    There are no words that I restrict 
 10  myself from using if that's what you're asking. 
 11       Q.    Do you own the domain name
 12       A.    Yes.
 13       Q.    Is that the only domain name you have 
 14  owned?
 15       A.    No.
 16       Q.    What other domain names have you owned?
 17       A.    There are a bunch.  There's various 
 18  other interpretations of that or iterations of 
 19  that -- 2600.Net,  And there are other -- 
 20  I wish I had a list in front of me.  I am trying to 
 21  think of everything that we have.  There are some 
 22  humorous sites that we have put up.  A recent one  
 23  concerning "Horizon."  We basically put up a site 
 24  called  It's probably one 
 25  of the ones you're thinking of.  Just as kind of a 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  forum for people to criticize a company.  I mean, 
  3  there are others.  Is there a particular one you're 
  4  interested in?
  5       Q.    Did you put up any in regards 
  6  specifically to this litigation?
  7       A.    For this litigation?  I honestly don't 
  8  think so. 
  9       Q.    You're sure about that. 
 10             MR. GARBUS:  I object.  He said he 
 11       honestly doesn't think so.
 12       A.    I'm honestly not sure.  I mean, if you 
 13  know of one, please tell me and I'll --
 14       Q.    Have you ever owned a domain name with 
 15  the name "morons" in it?
 16       A.    Ah, OK.  Now it's coming back to me.  We 
 17  had -- we have a domain name with a foul word in it 
 18  followed by the word "morons."
 19       Q.    Do you want to tell us for the record 
 20  what the domain name was?
 21       A.    Yes, it's, and it was 
 22  someone's -- I mean, someone at 2600, I forget 
 23  exactly who.  It was really just -- I thought it 
 24  was funny.  I thought it was just a joke.  It would 
 25  be pointing to MPAA.  But that's -- I think it's 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  actually been pointed at different sites, not just 
  3  MPAA.  It's been pointed -- it was pointed at us 
  4  for a while.  It's been pointed at -- the beauty of 
  5  the Net is you can point sites wherever you want to 
  6  point them.  It was just an example of humor. 
  7             So I don't -- I don't see that as 
  8  something necessarily immature, along that level.  
  9  Immature to a degree perhaps, but I don't think 
 10  anything other than just, you know, the kind of 
 11  joke you would see on late night TV or something 
 12  like that, cable. 
 13       Q.    Was there any other purpose for creating 
 14  that domain name?
 15       A.    We didn't publicize it very much.  Just 
 16  told a few friends I think.
 17       Q.    Do you know if you got any hits on it?  
 18       A.    No, we don't keep that kind of 
 19  information.  Actually, you would know, because I 
 20  think you have referral logs that would tell you if 
 21  people came in through there.
 22       Q.    Any other purpose though for creating 
 23  it?
 24       A.    Basically the real reason -- it was not 
 25  created with the MPAA in mind, I should point that 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  out.  It was created because registrars -- this is 
  3  really where it goes back to, registrars.  There 
  4  used to be simply one in this country, Network 
  5  Solutions.  Late last year, or actually over the 
  6  summer last year, it was deregulated.  More 
  7  registrars came into existence.  And all of a 
  8  sudden the rules that NSI had lived by for many, 
  9  many years, which restricted all use of any 
 10  four-letter word, all of a sudden those rules no 
 11  longer existed. 
 12             For a period of time, I think about two 
 13  days actually, every single iteration of a site 
 14  with one of those words was going fast.  And it was 
 15  just -- this was well before any of this started to 
 16  happen.  We just thought it would be fun to 
 17  register some of those and either use them as we 
 18  see fit in the future or give them away to people 
 19  to do whatever they want.  They were going to go 
 20  anyway, so we figured we might as well get them and 
 21  play around with them.  That's an example of one 
 22  the -- I guess that's about as childish as we get.
 23       Q.    Was that telling the story or reporting 
 24  the story as you see your job?
 25       A.    Well, we didn't report that story.  

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  That's just something we did behind the scenes.
  3       Q.    You said that 2600 is a journalistic 
  4  adventure that reports and tells the story.  Is 
  5  that fair?
  6       A.    Yes.
  7       Q.    Is your using that domain name to, I 
  8  guess what you said, poke fun at the MPAA part of 
  9  telling the story?
 10       A.    That's not part are our journalistic --
 11       Q.    So 2600 --
 12       A.    -- duties.
 13       Q.    -- has other things to do other than 
 14  being journalists then.  I guess that's now what 
 15  you're telling us.  
 16             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 
 17       the question.  That's not what he's telling 
 18       you at all.
 19       A.    This is not something that is done as 
 20  2600.  This is something that is done as 
 21  individuals just goofing around.  It's just a joke.
 22       Q.    Who owns the domain name?
 23       A.    I do.
 24       Q.    Who is the owner?  Tell me the name of 
 25  the owner of the domain name.

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       A.    Again, I would have to look at the 
  3  actual sites because there are a lot of -- a lot of 
  4  domain names I own.  I believe it's Emmanuel 
  5  Goldstein.  It could be slightly different, but 
  6  that's what I understand it to be.
  7       Q.    Do you own any other domain names with 
  8  four-letter words in it?
  9       A.    There are a few.  I don't remember 
 10  specifically which ones.  We just grabbed a bunch, 
 11  you know, just the fun of it.
 12       Q.    Why don't you tell us what else you own?
 13       A.    Like I said, if you show me a list I can 
 14  confirm it or deny it, but this is not something 
 15  that's paramount in my mind.  In fact, a lot of 
 16  these sites I've forgotten about ever since we 
 17  grabbed a few of them.
 18       Q.    And the only one you remember is this 
 19  one now.
 20       A.    Because you brought it up, yes.
 21       Q.    Are there any others you use as you sit 
 22  and recall in regards to this litigation? 
 23       A.    In regards to this litigation?  That's 
 24  the only one I can think of that points to MPAA or 
 25  ever did point to MPAA.  To be honest, I don't even 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  know if it's pointing there now.  It may have been 
  3  pointing there for a while and then pointing 
  4  somewhere else.  I don't even remember.  I've had 
  5  far more important things to worry about. 
  6       Q.    Who linked it to the MPAA site?
  7       A.    I don't recall.
  8       Q.    Did you do it?
  9       A.    I don't recall if I did or not.  
 10       Q.    Well, if you didn't do it, who else 
 11  could have done it? 
 12       A.    Anybody who was on our site and has 
 13  route access and is able to change the 
 14  configuration files that would point. 
 15       Q.    See, you told me you own the domain 
 16  name.
 17       A.    I own the domain name.
 18       Q.    So who else has authority to use your 
 19  domain name?
 20       A.    Anyone who has system administrative 
 21  privileges on my system, on, is capable of 
 22  going into the files that designate where that site 
 23  points to and pointing it someplace else.  It's 
 24  very simple.
 25       Q.    Who else is that?

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       A.    Our assistant administrator.  I believe 
  3  our webmaster has that access as well.  Our office 
  4  manager has that access.  It's a very simple thing.  
  5  It's nothing complex. 
  6       Q.    Anyone else?
  7       A.    Not that I know of. 
  8       Q.    As you sit here right now you don't know 
  9  who actually created the link.
 10       A.    I can't swear to who created the link.  
 11  I am not saying I didn't do it.  I don't remember.  
 12  This is not a major issue for me.  It's a simple 
 13  joke, parody.  I don't see its relevance at all. 
 14       Q.    As you sit here right now, there is no 
 15  other link that you or anyone else at 2600 you know 
 16  created that would fall into this similar 
 17  characterization of a link.
 18       A.    Could you rephrase that a little bit? 
 19             MR. GARBUS:  Object to the form of the 
 20       question. 
 21       Q.    I am just trying to make sure.  You 
 22  said, as I understand it, you don't remember right 
 23  now whether you did this or someone else on the 
 24  2600 staff did it.
 25       A.    Right.

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       Q.    I just want to make sure, is there any 
  3  other domain name that 2600 or you own that you 
  4  utilized in a similar way to this one?
  5             MR. GARBUS:  Object to the word 
  6       "similar."  I am not sure what you mean.
  7       Q.    Do you understand what I mean by that?  
  8  In any way mentioning this litigation or impacted 
  9  by this litigation.
 10       A.    Specifically for this litigation, I 
 11  don't recall of any, no.
 12       Q.    It's fair to say the only reason you did 
 13  this and on this domain name was because of this 
 14  litigation.
 15       A.    As I said, the domain name was 
 16  registered well in advance of this litigation.  
 17  That was not the reason for registering the domain 
 18  name.
 19       Q.    Your use of tying it to the MPAA, isn't 
 20  it fair to say that was only because of this 
 21  litigation?
 22       A.    It was related, I am sure, yes, because 
 23  people felt a certain way about that. 
 24       Q.    I said "only" and you said "related."  
 25  So is there any other reason you did this other 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  than this litigation?
  3       A.    I'm sure there are other reasons to 
  4  describe the MPAA in certain ways if people think 
  5  about it enough and discuss it enough.  I don't 
  6  know.  I would imagine it's related to the ongoing 
  7  hostilities.  But again, you know, I can't crawl 
  8  back into my head and figure out exactly when this 
  9  was done, who did it, what the thinking was at the 
 10  time.  It's something that I have not thought about 
 11  at all, and this is the first I've even thought 
 12  about it in it must be months.  So I don't know who 
 13  posted it, when they posted it, what the exact 
 14  thinking was when it was posted or, rather, linked. 
 15       Q.    You said numerous times that the reason 
 16  you kept up the link is it's part of the story.
 17       A.    Which links are we talking about now? 
 18       Q.    The links to DeCSS.  Switching topics. 
 19             Is that fair?
 20       A.    Yes. 
 21       Q.    And that you view it as your job as a 
 22  journalist to basically report that story.
 23             MR. GARBUS:  I am going to object.  I 
 24       think the practice we have had is that if a 
 25       second lawyer comes in he is entirely 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       entitled to go into new areas.  What you 
  3       seem to be doing now is going over areas 
  4       that Mr. Gold went over.  And that we have 
  5       agreed no one should do.
  6             MR. LITVACK:  I will not do. 
  7       Q.    Isn't it correct that you and 2600 asked 
  8  people to post DeCSS so that you could link to it?
  9       A.    We told people how they could support, 
 10  how they could show their support for this 
 11  information, for talking about DeCSS, reverse 
 12  engineering, encryption technology.  All the things 
 13  that were being restricted we explained how we saw 
 14  this as a danger and how people could show support 
 15  if they chose to.  We also apprised them of the 
 16  risks that went with that.
 17       Q.    And there are a lot of ways you 
 18  indicated to them they could show support; isn't 
 19  that right?
 20       A.    There are many ways, yes.
 21             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to it.  
 22       This is exactly what Mr. Gold went over.
 23       Q.    Now I am asking you specifically, which 
 24  Mr. Gold did not ask.  Didn't you ask people to 
 25  post it so that you could link to it?

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       A.    Yes, we had a form where people could 
  3  submit a site.  If they wanted their site added to 
  4  the list, all they had to was fill it out and then 
  5  send it to us.  But that was their choice.
  6             MR. GARBUS:  Object.  This has already 
  7       been gone over through with Mr. Gold. 
  8             MR. LITVACK:  Let's mark this next 
  9       document whatever number we're up to.
 10             (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 8, 3-page 
 11       document, 2600: The Hacker Quarterly, 
 12       entitled "Call to Action," marked for 
 13       identification, as of this date.) 
 14       Q.    Have you ever seen this?  Exhibit 8 
 15  appears to be a printout from your web site; is 
 16  that fair?
 17       A.    Yes.  This is one of our web pages.
 18       Q.    And you have seen this before.
 19       A.    Yes. 
 20       Q.    By the way, do you do anything to check 
 21  the veracity of what you post before you put it on? 
 22             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to that.  
 23       The witness testified to that yesterday at 
 24       great length.  I am going to object to going 
 25       over the same material again.

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       Q.    Let me ask you this.  Did you do 
  3  anything to check the veracity of this particular 
  4  page?
  5       A.    I take responsibility for all pages on 
  6  our site.  Absolutely. 
  7       Q.    I think there was some testimony earlier 
  8  you weren't sure whether you had written something 
  9  particular or not.  I don't know if you recall 
 10  whether you yourself had written this page.
 11       A.    These two paragraphs here?  Is that what 
 12  you're referring to? 
 13       Q.    Those two paragraphs I guess would be 
 14  it.  I am not sure if the summary and the news also 
 15  would fall within.
 16       A.    OK.  I believe I wrote these two 
 17  paragraphs.  They do sound like my style. 
 18       Q.    Is it your opinion that the "call to 
 19  action," and that's a quote from the exhibit, is 
 20  part of telling the story?
 21       A.    By having people hand out fliers, by 
 22  having people tell others about what's going on, 
 23  that's part of it.  It's part of getting the word 
 24  out, yes.
 25       Q.    And the word you're attempting to get 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  out via this is what?
  3       A.    That this -- basically that DeCSS is 
  4  something that is an interesting story.  It has to 
  5  do with encryption and reverse engineering and 
  6  technological developments and education. 
  7             We outlined what we felt was wrong with 
  8  the case against us and told as many people as we 
  9  could, as I believe is our right. 
 10       Q.    And you see that as part of reporting 
 11  the story?
 12       A.    I see this as part of reporting the 
 13  story, yes, getting the word out.  It might not be 
 14  a traditional way that the mainstream media does 
 15  it, but that's how we do it. 
 16       Q.    In your declaration you made the comment 
 17  "While I don't practice or condone breaking into 
 18  computer systems, experience has shown us that such 
 19  acts are an inevitable product of curiosity 
 20  combined with new technology."
 21       A.    What item number? 
 22             MR. GARBUS:  Which paragraph? 
 23             MR. LITVACK:  13.  Page 4. 
 24       A.    OK, I'm there. 
 25       Q.    Mr. Gold did ask you about this.

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       A.    Yes. 
  3             MR. GARBUS:  Mr. Gold asked about the 
  4       entire paragraph; is that right?
  5             MR. LITVACK:  Correct.  So I am not 
  6       going to repeat his question. 
  7       Q.    Isn't it fair to say that what the 2600 
  8  quarterly does do is condone breaking into computer 
  9  systems --
 10       A.    It does not.
 11       Q.    Let me finish.  -- and tell people how 
 12  to go about violating the law?
 13       A.    Absolutely not. 
 14             MR. GARBUS:  Objection. 
 15       Q.    Are there not articles, numerous 
 16  articles, in your magazine that specifically do 
 17  that?
 18       A.    There are articles submitted to us by 
 19  people that give us information on various 
 20  operating systems on how things work.  But it has 
 21  always been the editorial stance of our magazine 
 22  that breaking into computer systems is 
 23  irresponsible, it's wrong. 
 24             But what we do is we recognize that it 
 25  is also something that is happening and we want 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  people to act responsibly.
  3       Q.    Don't you tell people how to steal as 
  4  well in these magazines?
  5       A.    I don't think we have ever told people 
  6  how to steal. 
  7             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to it.  
  8       Unless you show the witness the quote.
  9       Q.    How about using telephones without 
 10  paying for them?
 11       A.    We described how telephones work.
 12       Q.    And you tell people how to use 
 13  telephones without paying for them.
 14       A.    We tell people how the system works and 
 15  how -- if there are security weaknesses in it, we 
 16  describe the security weaknesses.  That's the 
 17  nature of information.  We describe how it works.  
 18  We do not say "go out and do this and break the 
 19  law."  We have never said that, and you can trace 
 20  that back to our first issue in 1984. 
 21       Q.    Do you tell people how to create false 
 22  legal documents as well?
 23       A.    False legal documents? 
 24       Q.    Yes.
 25       A.    Again, we tell people how systems work. 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       Q.    You don't recall specifically telling 
  3  people how to create false --
  4       A.    I don't recall ever telling someone how 
  5  to do that.  There might be an article that talks 
  6  about how a particular system works.
  7       Q.    How about stealing cellular phone 
  8  systems?  Do you tell people how to do that in the 
  9  magazine as well?
 10       A.    Stealing systems? 
 11       Q.    Phone time, on cellular phone times.
 12       A.    Do we tell people how to steal cellular 
 13  phone time? 
 14       Q.    Yes.
 15       A.    Again, we describe how systems work and 
 16  we will describe how the cellular phone system 
 17  works.  Now, if somebody uses that information in a 
 18  good way, that's not our concern.  If somebody uses 
 19  that information in a bad way, that's not our 
 20  concern.  We provide the information.  That's what 
 21  we do.
 22       Q.    Don't you teach people how to make card 
 23  phones in this magazine, and the only purpose of 
 24  those is to steal phone time?
 25       A.    No.  

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       Q.    Are you sure?
  3       A.    Well --
  4       Q.    Remember, you're under oath here.  So 
  5  we're going to go through these articles?
  6             MR. GARBUS:  If you have an article to 
  7       show him, show him the article.
  8             MR. LITVACK:  He just said no.
  9       A.    I said no, and I'll continue to say 
 10  no, because interpretation of the intent of 
 11  knowledge is -- I don't think any of us have the 
 12  ability or even the right to say that.
 13       Q.    Sir, didn't you specifically print an 
 14  article for example on how to create a false ID  
 15  about your age?
 16       A.    Someone may have written an article 
 17  about how that is done. 
 18       Q.    Doesn't it specifically say in there the 
 19  purpose of it is so you can drink when you're 
 20  underage?
 21       A.    That might be that person's 
 22  interpretation.  That is not our interpretation. 
 23       Q.    Sir, you printed it in your magazine.  
 24  You said you're responsible for every word in here.
 25       A.    I'm responsible for what we write as 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  editorials, as replies to letters, as editorial 
  3  stances in the magazine.
  4       Q.    Sir, do you believe that --
  5       A.    We do not agree with every article that 
  6  is submitted to our magazine, no.  If we did, we 
  7  would cease being what we are.
  8       Q.    What are you?
  9       A.    We're a journal of various bits of 
 10  information that are sent to us from around the 
 11  world describing how systems work.
 12       Q.    And part of that includes creating false 
 13  IDs so underage people can drink. 
 14             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.
 15       A.    I would like to see the article you're 
 16  referring to so I can answer it intelligently. 
 17             MR. GARBUS:  Would you please lower 
 18       your voice, Mr. Litvack.  Stop yelling at 
 19       the witness
 20       Q.    Let me read you an article entitled 
 21  "Spoofing Cellular Service."  This is from autumn 
 22  1996. 
 23             First, why don't you tell me, what is 
 24  spoofing cellular service?
 25       A.    In the context of that article I believe 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  it's creating a false phone number or a phone 
  3  number on a different line or -- it can be 
  4  interpreted in many ways.  It can be an extension 
  5  phone on a cellular system.  It can be a fake 
  6  number.  I would have to see the article to know 
  7  exactly how it's meant in that particular case.
  8       Q.    You don't remember this article.
  9       A.    I would have to look at it to remember.  
 10  I can't remember every word that's written in the 
 11  magazine.  That's an old issue taken from several 
 12  years ago.
 13       Q.    Until you read it you can't tell me if 
 14  the only purpose of this article is to tell 
 15  somebody how to get cellular service without paying 
 16  for it. 
 17             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to it.  
 18       He's already said unless he reads it he 
 19       can't tell you what is in there.  You have 
 20       asked him that.
 21             MR. LITVACK:  You will stipulate to 
 22       that?
 23             MR. GARBUS:  I will stipulate that he 
 24       has to read the article before he can answer 
 25       questions about it. 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       Q.    So you can't answer that without reading 
  3  it.
  4       A.    I can't answer accurately without 
  5  looking at --
  6       Q.    Fine, here, read the article.  Take your 
  7  time (handing).
  8       A.    OK. 
  9       Q.    For the record, as your counsel reads 
 10  it, do you know when these were given to the 
 11  plaintiffs in this case, these magazines?
 12       A.    Do I know when they were given? 
 13       Q.    Yes.
 14       A.    I believe today. 
 15       Q.    Doesn't that article tell you how to get 
 16  cellular phone service without paying for it?
 17       A.    It tells you many things.  Yes, it 
 18  describes how that can be done.  It also describes 
 19  social engineering.  It describes security 
 20  weaknesses. 
 21             I have no doubt after that article 
 22  appeared that those security holes were fixed.  I 
 23  have gotten many times at conferences executives of 
 24  companies who walked up to me and said that we 
 25  provide a valuable service for them.  And I have 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  also been criticized in the hacker community for 
  3  doing just that, for giving away the secrets.  So 
  4  it's a two-edged sword. 
  5       Q.    So it's your testimony here you were 
  6  attempting to do a public service for the cellular 
  7  phone systems?
  8       A.    No, my testimony --
  9             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to it.  
 10       That was not the testimony.
 11       A.    My testimony is that we print 
 12  information.  People use that information in 
 13  different ways.  It's very simple.
 14       Q.    Are there legal ways for people to use 
 15  that system to get phone service without paying for 
 16  it?
 17       A.    I wouldn't know. 
 18       Q.    Let me show you the next article, "Tips 
 19  on Generating Fake ID." 
 20             "So you want to get drunk this weekend 
 21  or buy some cigarettes?  It is sometimes easier to 
 22  buy marijuana and take advantage of the black 
 23  market brought on by the war on drugs or follow on 
 24  and learn how to kill your brain cells with 
 25  alcohol."

  1                     Goldstein 
  2             Was that done as part of a public 
  3  service message?
  4       A.    That was an article somebody submitted.  
  5  As I said, I don't agree with every view expressed.  
  6  It can be seen as parody.  It can be seen as 
  7  nonsensical humor.  But it's also seen as educating 
  8  people as to how something is done.
  9       Q.    Parody on how to make a false ID?
 10       A.    No, parody on the opening paragraph that 
 11  you just read, as if that's the only thing that a 
 12  fake ID is good for, going out and getting drunk.  
 13  I mean, who knows how you would interpret that?
 14       Q.    Sir, let me show you an article from 
 15  volume 15, number 2.  Maybe you can read the read 
 16  better than I can.
 17       A.    It's on the bottom of the page.  Well, 
 18  the next page definitely.
 19       Q.    Maybe you can just tell me what it's 
 20  from.  Oh, summer of '98 on the bottom there. 
 21             That tells you how to make a false ID.  
 22  Is that fair? 
 23             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to it.  The 
 24       article tells you what it tells you.  
 25       Whether it's fair or not is irrelevant.  The 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       articles says what it says.
  3       Q.    Mr. Garbus is absolutely right with his 
  4  objection.  Can you read to me the title?
  5       A.    "Tips on Generating Fake ID." 
  6       Q.    Can you read to me all of the commentary 
  7  or editorial comment that 2600 added on this?
  8       A.    We don't necessarily add editorial 
  9  comments into other people's articles.  People 
 10  submit articles to us.  We print the articles and 
 11  people learn from the articles.  They either learn 
 12  how to secure their systems or they learn how the 
 13  systems can be abused.  They can do good things, 
 14  they can do bad things.  We exist to provide 
 15  information. 
 16       Q.    What system is it you're teaching people 
 17  how to hack in this article?
 18       A.    I didn't say we were teaching people to 
 19  hack.
 20             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to it.  
 21       That wasn't what he said.
 22             MR. LITVACK:  I don't have to just 
 23       adopt his answer, Mr. Garbus.
 24             MR. GARBUS:  Of course you don't have 
 25       to adopt his answer.  But you can't restate 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       what he said in the wrong way.
  3             MR. LITVACK:  I get to ask the 
  4       questions, OK?
  5       Q.    Are you attempting to teach somebody how 
  6  to break into a system by that article?
  7       A.    I have no interest in people getting 
  8  fake ID.  It's a method that is used.  It's 
  9  educational.  It's a report on holes that exist in 
 10  various systems.  That's as simple as I can make 
 11  it. 
 12       Q.    Who made the decision to print that 
 13  article in that magazine?
 14       A.    That would be me.  As the editor. 
 15       Q.    In the end here there's a thing that 
 16  says "how to spot fake ID and not be fooled," and 
 17  it tells me what to say when they are handing over 
 18  the fake ID.  And the purpose of that is what?
 19       A.    Again, that's method, that's how things 
 20  work.  This is information that would exist even if 
 21  it was not in our magazine, except it would be less 
 22  well-known and less people would understand it. 
 23       Q.    So you're trying to explain to more 
 24  people how one could create a false ID if they want 
 25  to?

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       A.    We try not to impose our moral judgments 
  3  on information.
  4       Q.    You also then tell people how to I guess 
  5  break into specific companies' computer programs in 
  6  your magazine?
  7       A.    I need a specific reference.
  8       Q.    Have you ever done that?
  9       A.    There are all kinds of articles in the 
 10  magazines about all kinds of computer systems.
 11       Q.    Are you really going to sit here and 
 12  tell me --
 13             MR. GARBUS:  I would object to the 
 14       form of the question as to what he is really 
 15       going to sit here and tell you.  I object to 
 16       the form of the question. 
 17       Q.    Is it your sworn testimony right now 
 18  that you do not ever remember publishing an article 
 19  telling people how to break into a specific 
 20  company's computer program?
 21             MR. GARBUS:  I'll object.
 22       A.    We print articles about computer systems 
 23  of specific companies and people can learn all 
 24  kinds of things from that.
 25             MR. GARBUS:  If you want to show him 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       an article, show him an article.
  3             MR. LITVACK:  I don't need to show him 
  4       an article.  He knows that they publish them 
  5       on specific companies.  Every one of these 
  6       magazines has articles on specific companies 
  7       pretty much.
  8             MR. GARBUS:  I object to that.
  9       Q.    Isn't that fair?
 10       A.    And those specific companies read the 
 11  articles.
 12       Q.    So I don't need to show you any 
 13  articles.
 14             MR. GARBUS:  Mr. Litvack, this is a 
 15       deposition.  This is not an argument.  
 16             MR. LITVACK:  You objected, said you 
 17       need to show him the magazine.  He knows he 
 18       doesn't need the magazine.  He knows it's 
 19       the regular magazine to print these 
 20       articles. 
 21             If you have an objection to form, make 
 22       it.
 23             MR GARBUS:  I object to the form of 
 24       the question.
 25             MR. LITVACK:  Good.  There's not even 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       a question pending.
  3       A.    If you're looking at a specific article, 
  4  that's the only reason I was curious which article 
  5  it was. 
  6       Q.    Routinely, it's things you publish; 
  7  isn't that fair?
  8       A.    That's the nature of our magazine, is 
  9  how systems work. 
 10       Q.    Fine.  "Fun at COSCO," do you recall 
 11  this article?
 12       A.    I am thinking.  Yes. 
 13       Q.    Summer of '99?
 14       A.    I don't recall specifically what is in 
 15  it, but I recall the article.  Yes. 
 16       Q.    I will show you the article.
 17       A.    Thank you.
 18             OK.
 19       Q.    What is the "fun at COSCO"?
 20       A.    It's -- you asked me to analyze the 
 21  title?  It's basically a statement.  People -- the 
 22  title first of all was part of the article.  Our 
 23  writers entitle their own articles.  So it is rare 
 24  that we come up with our own titles. 
 25             Again, it's basically a way of 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  describing how these systems work.  From this 
  3  person's point of view, they consider that fun. 
  4       Q.    What's fun?  Shopping?
  5       A.    Learning how the systems work, seeing 
  6  how the phone systems at that particular store 
  7  work.  And I am trying to see what else is in here.
  8       Q.    Isn't it using the computer system when 
  9  you're not authorized to use it?
 10       A.    Yeah, using is different than reading. 
 11       Q.    Is it?
 12       A.    We have told people -- if you read our 
 13  letters and you see our replies to people that are 
 14  obviously intent on committing criminal acts, you 
 15  will see that we chastise them and tell them not to 
 16  do it.
 17       Q.    You don't do it on --
 18       A.    Because those are articles.  We don't 
 19  comment on articles.
 20       Q.    This article even tells you what to say 
 21  when you get caught. 
 22       A.    Uh-huh.
 23       Q.    Did you comment on it, like say, Gee, 
 24  don't do this?
 25       A.    Well, if COSCO reads that article and 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  someone says that, I think they will know that they 
  3  read the article too and they'll be prepared for 
  4  it.
  5       Q.    So you sent COSCO a copy?
  6       A.    We don't send anybody a copy unless they 
  7  ask for a copy.  But usually if your company's name 
  8  is in there, you get a copy pretty fast.  They 
  9  might even sell us at COSCO.
 10       Q.    In this article when it described how to 
 11  use COSCO's system wrongfully and what to say when 
 12  caught, did you do anything to insure that people 
 13  didn't use the advice that you were handing out?
 14       A.    Like I said, we did not --
 15             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to the form 
 16       of the question.
 17       A.    We do not impose our moral values on our 
 18  articles.  The articles are what they are.
 19       Q.    Even if they encourage illegal acts? 
 20             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to the form 
 21       of the question.
 22       A.    I don't believe the article only exists 
 23  to encourage illegal acts.  I think it is an 
 24  informational article.
 25       Q.    What is a diverter, a telephone 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  diverter?
  3       A.    A diverter is actually a very old piece 
  4  of phone -- phone equipment that I believe doctors 
  5  and plumbers and other such people use after hours.  
  6  I might be wrong on this, but I am pretty sure it 
  7  is used.  So that when somebody calls the office 
  8  and nobody is there, the call gets forwarded to the 
  9  person's home.  It's kind of a mechanical version 
 10  of call forwarding.  It is rare to find these days 
 11  because call forwarding is so prevalent in the 
 12  phone companies.
 13       Q.    Didn't you print an article on how to 
 14  use a phone diverter so that the person utilizing 
 15  it would not have to pay for the phone calls they 
 16  made and that somebody else would be charged for 
 17  it?
 18       A.    Now, that's a very good point actually 
 19  because -- I think you're going back to an old 
 20  issue.  Phone diverters have become notoriously 
 21  insecure.  The reason for that is that when you 
 22  call the person's office and the call gets 
 23  forwarded to the person's home, that's done by 
 24  picking up the second phone line and making a phone 
 25  call and basically conferencing you in. 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2             Now, what happens is, and this was 
  3  discovered by hackers, when the person on the 
  4  remote end hangs up, the other phone drops to a 
  5  dial tone, meaning that call diverters are not the 
  6  way to go. 
  7             Now, I had the option of buying a call 
  8  diverter, and it was because of the information 
  9  that I had from articles like this that I realized 
 10  I would be crazy to do that, that people could make 
 11  phone calls off of my line. 
 12             And I think that's one of the reasons 
 13  why you don't see very many call diverters these 
 14  days, because people are aware of the risks.  If we 
 15  had not printed articles like this, I am sure there 
 16  would be a lot more people being ripped off these 
 17  days who weren't aware of the risks.
 18       Q.    "Call diverters are a wonderful tool for 
 19  you to add to your freaking arsenal."  Is that 
 20  telling people be careful about using them?
 21       A.    Are those our words?
 22             MR. GARBUS:  Let me just make an 
 23       objection. 
 24             MR. LITVACK:  You can have an 
 25       objection to form of the question. 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2             MR. GARBUS:  No, no, no.  Just so we 
  3       can save a little time.
  4             If James Bond describes 17 different 
  5       ways to kill somebody, do you think that 
  6       James Bond's publisher or author is liable 
  7       if it's a killing that ultimately occurs 
  8       that way?
  9             MR. LITVACK:  Let me ask you this, 
 10       Mr. Garbus.  Do you really in good faith 
 11       believe that was an objection to form, 
 12       asking me a hypothetical? 
 13             MR. GARBUS:  Go ahead. 
 14       Q.    "Call diverters are a wonderful tool for 
 15  you to add to your freaking arsenal."
 16       A.    I believe I answered that by asking you 
 17  if that's our writing or if that's the author's 
 18  writing.
 19       Q.    I am reading from 2600.
 20       A.    Right.  But is that an article that was 
 21  submitted to us or is that our writing from the 
 22  magazine? 
 23       Q.    Do you believe that is a way of warning 
 24  people about the danger of call diverters?
 25       A.    If you read the article and you learn 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  what the article says, yes.  Absolutely.  
  3       Q.    So that's the way you warn people, by 
  4  language such as that.
  5             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form.
  6       A.    That's the way we get the information.
  7       Q.    I'll quote again.  "After you've located 
  8  a diverter, don't abuse it or the business is sure 
  9  to pull the plug, leaving you to start all over 
 10  again."
 11       A.    Again, that's the person who submitted 

 12  the article to us and that is the way they decided 
 13  to write the article.  We don't put our moral 
 14  values over people's articles.
 15       Q.    Article entitled "Hacking the 3-Hole Pay 
 16  Phone."  Do you remember that article from --
 17       A.    That's our new issue.
 18       Q.    Newest issue.  So this one should -- in 
 19  fact, this should be after the lawsuit was filed.
 20       A.    Yes. 
 21       Q.    Now, hacking the 3-hole pay phone, 
 22  explaining to you how to put slugs into a phone 
 23  system, to a pay phone. 
 24       A.    Yes.
 25       Q.    And the purpose of that was to help the 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  phone company stop it?
  3       A.    You've picked a really dandy of an 
  4  example there.  That actually is an article about 
  5  phones that haven't existed in maybe the last 30 
  6  years.  That's historical perspective there. 
  7             I think that goes to show that we do not 
  8  print articles simply to show people how to defraud 
  9  things.  That is an example of how things worked in 
 10  the past, how thing were abused in the past.  I 
 11  found it fascinating. 
 12       Q.    Do you believe there are no 3-hole pay 
 13  phones left in America?
 14       A.    I would sure like to find one.  I'd love 
 15  to see one.
 16       Q.    Is it your testimony that there are no 
 17  3-hole pay phones left in America?
 18       A.    Except on movie sets perhaps. 
 19       Q.    In fact, you guys specialize in phones 
 20  because you put them on the back of every issue, 
 21  isn't that right? 
 22             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 
 23       the question.  What do you mean by 
 24       specialize in phones?
 25       A.    We put pictures of foreign pay phones 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  on the back of our magazine.  I am sure there are 
  3  bad ways that information can be used.
  4       Q.    Do you put domestic as well or only 
  5  foreign?
  6       A.    Only foreign.  We see enough domestic 
  7  ones. 
  8       Q.    I'm looking at an article from spring of 
  9  last year, '99.  "Hacking a Sony Play Station." 
 10             Do you remember that article?
 11       A.    I remember the article.  I've never had 
 12  a Sony Play Station myself, so I don't really 
 13  remember what it entails.
 14       Q.    "If you're one of the" -- I'm reading 
 15  now.  Well, I'm going to give it to you.  So that 
 16  way you can see I'm accurate.  Can you read the 
 17  first paragraph out loud?
 18       A.    "If you're one of the millions of Play 
 19  Station, in parentheses, PSX, owners out there, 
 20  good news.  You can, quote unquote, hack your PSX 
 21  with the addition of a, quote, Mod, M-o-d, or, 
 22  quote, Pic, P-i-c, chip enabling you to play backed 
 23  up, ahem, in parentheses, PSX games and more 
 24  importantly import games and at a fraction of the 
 25  cost." 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       Q.    Did you read this before you put in the 
  3  magazine?
  4       A.    Yes. 
  5       Q.    Did you wonder, did you ask the author 
  6  what you meant by "ahem"?
  7       A.    We don't communicate with the authors 
  8  and analyze every word that they say and ask them 
  9  to rewrite things.  The articles speak for 
 10  themselves.  We print the information that the 
 11  people send us.  There's all kinds of things that 
 12  can be gained from an article about hacking a Sony 
 13  Play Station.  You can learn the vulnerabilities in 
 14  the system.  We can see what people are doing.
 15             We don't usually print articles on 
 16  something like this.  This is widespread without us 
 17  doing this.  We have been criticized for putting 
 18  this in our magazine because it's really got 
 19  nothing to do with real computers.  These are 
 20  games.
 21       Q.    Did you have an understanding as to what 
 22  they meant by "ahem"?
 23       A.    Yes, I imagine it was a bit of sarcasm 
 24  on their part.  But I think that's also important 
 25  to the article so you know the tone of the person 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  writing it and what it is that they are really up 
  3  to.
  4       Q.    Sarcasm on what issue?
  5       A.    On the issue of defining games that  
  6  they had copied as backed up games instead of games 
  7  that they copied from friends. 
  8       Q.    Would that be a pirate copy?
  9       A.    It might be considered that.  I am not 
 10  really familiar with the Play Station world, if 
 11  they even consider it that serious a thing.  But 
 12  this is information -- this has been out years 
 13  before we even touched it.  I think it's important 
 14  for people to see what's being written about it. 
 15       Q.    I am going to show you an article from 
 16  fall of 1998.  Can you read for me the title of the 
 17  article? 
 18       A.    "Screwing with Movie Phone."  
 19       Q.    What does that article tell you how to 
 20  do?
 21       A.    This article actually was interesting 
 22  because it -- I'm just remembering what it had to 
 23  say here.  This talked about how particular 
 24  transactions over the telephone could easily be 
 25  used in a fraudulent manner, in other words, this 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  involved people behind the counter, like fraud 
  3  within Movie Phone.  Actually, within the theater, 
  4  where from --
  5       Q.    Doesn't it tell you you can use Movie 
  6  Phone if you're under age to buy an R-rated movie 
  7  ticket and get in?
  8       A.    It tells of how there's no security 
  9  whatsoever if you buy a ticket in this way and how 
 10  people have been turning a blind eye to this for 
 11  years. 
 12       Q.    Doesn't it also tell you how you can 
 13  order over Movie Phone, go see the move and then 
 14  get your money back as if you never saw the movie.
 15       A.    And this has been going on for years.
 16       Q.    But it tells you how to do that.
 17       A.    I would bet that this stopped happening 
 18  shortly after we printed the article.
 19       Q.    Did you have an opinion as to whether 
 20  that was a fair use of your movie ticket or not?
 21       A.    I don't think my opinion is relevant to 
 22  the articles that get printed.  The articles do not 
 23  reflect my opinion.
 24       Q.    Do you read them before they --
 25       A.    I read them, but the articles I print do 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  not all agree with what I have to say.  The hacker 
  3  community is not one big monolithic collective 
  4  mind.  We try to print what information is out 
  5  there that's different, that educates people the 
  6  most on how things work and how things are 
  7  vulnerable.  And that's what I think we did with 
  8  this article and with the other ones.
  9       Q.    Let me show you the next article, ask 
 10  you if you remember this one.  Can you read this?
 11       A.    "Cable Modem Security."
 12       Q.    Can you just read the opening sentence?
 13       A.    "Cable modems are becoming increasingly 
 14  popular among the Internet connected for a variety 
 15  of reasons, not the least of which is the 
 16  availability of a cheap, high-speed, high bandwidth 
 17  connection on request." 
 18       Q.    Fine, that's it.  Did you ever do 
 19  anything, put anything in your magazine, to 
 20  indicate you disagree with that statement?
 21       A.    Like I said, we don't comment on 
 22  articles, we put our editorial comments on the 
 23  articles.
 24       Q.    Did you believe that statement was 
 25  wrong?

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       A.    That cable modems are becoming 
  3  popular --
  4       Q.    Correct.
  5       A.    High bandwidth?  Cable modems are 
  6  obviously becoming popular, yes.  I won't disagree 
  7  with that.
  8       Q.    Not the least of which is the 
  9  availability of a cheap, high-speed, high bandwidth 
 10  connection on request.
 11       A.    Uh-huh.  And that article is also 
 12  several years old.  And we have not really advanced 
 13  very far beyond cable modems in all that time. 
 14       Q.    Do you know of modems, the speed of 
 15  cable modems?
 16       A.    I not familiar with the actual speed.  
 17  It varies.  It depends how many people are in your 
 18  loop.
 19       Q.    Do you think they're quicker than 56?
 20       A.    They're quicker than 56, but how much 
 21  quicker depends on how many other people share your 
 22  line. 
 23       Q.    Did you do anything to check the 
 24  veracity of that particular statement before you 
 25  published it?

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       A.    Whether or not cable modems are fast? 
  3       Q.    Are becoming increasingly popular among 
  4  the Internet connected for a variety of reasons, 
  5  not the least of which is the availability of a 
  6  cheap, high-speed, high bandwidth connection on 
  7  request.
  8       A.    I don't understand why that would be a 
  9  statement that would need to be verified.  It's 
 10  pretty common knowledge that cable modems are 
 11  popular because they offer, quote unquote, high 
 12  speed. 
 13             But I think it's also important that 
 14  that's what was said years ago, and we haven't 
 15  advanced beyond that, not to any significant 
 16  degree.  In fact, cable modems are still faster 
 17  than DSL in most cases.
 18       Q.    My only question was did you do anything 
 19  to check the veracity of that particular statement.
 20       A.    The answer is no.  
 21             MR. GARBUS:  I will object.  He has 
 22       already answered the question.
 23             MR. LITVACK:  Why don't we take a 
 24       break. 
 25             THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  The time is 4:06 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       p.m. and this completes videotape number 4 
  3       of the videotape deposition of Mr. Emmanuel 
  4       Goldstein. 
  5             (A recess was taken.)
  6             THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  The time 4:19 p.m. 
  7       and this begins tape number 5 of the 
  8       videotape deposition of Mr. Emmanuel 
  9       Goldstein. 
 10  BY MR. GOLD: 
 11       Q.    I show you Volume Fourteen, Number Two, 
 12  which is the summer of 1997. 
 13             MR. GARBUS:  Let's mark it as an 
 14       exhibit so we can keep better charge of it.  
 15       Why don't you just identify the books you 
 16       have had so we can mark them as exhibits.  
 17       In other words, I previously referred to 
 18       so-and-so. 
 19             MR. LITVACK:  OK, we'll do it at end.  
 20       This is going to be a very quick question.
 21             (Discussion off the record.)
 22             THE WITNESS:  What page do you want me 
 23       to look at?
 24       Q.    I believe you testified earlier that all 
 25  of the phones were not in the United States.

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       A.    No.
  3       Q.    Does that refresh your recollection that 
  4  there are phones as well in the United States?
  5       A.    Yes, you did find one phone I forgot 
  6  about.  Actually, if you look, there is no real 
  7  phone in the phone booth.  It has just got paper 
  8  cups and things.  But yes, something from Florida.  
  9  From Disney World, I think.  Sorry, I stand 
 10  corrected.
 11       Q.    It says from Panama City.  I assume --
 12       A.    Which I think is in Florida, right?
 13       Q.    Right.  Disney World I believe is in 
 14  Orlando.
 15       A.    Never actually been there. 
 16       Q.    Leaving the 2600 magazines aside -- 
 17  although there's one more article I wanted to ask 
 18  you about.  Do you know what a DOS is?
 19       A.    DOS as denial of service or a DOS 
 20  operating system?
 21       Q.    As in denial of service.
 22       A.    Denial of service, yes.  There's been a 
 23  lot of publicity about that lately. 
 24       Q.    Have you written articles?  Have there 
 25  been articles in here on how to do DOS?

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       A.    There have been articles about how such 
  3  an attack would be structured, yes.
  4       Q.    Have you ever participated in such an 
  5  act?
  6       A.    No.  
  7       Q.    Do you know anyone who has?
  8       A.    No, I don't. 
  9       Q.    Is the reason you put an article in here 
 10  on how to do a DOS attack to try to help people 
 11  stop DOS attacks? 
 12       A.    Absolutely. 
 13             MR. GARBUS:  Objection. 
 14             MR. LITVACK:  Your objection is? 
 15             MR. GARBUS:  You're testifying.  You 
 16       should be asking him questions.  Go ahead.
 17             MR. LITVACK:  I thought I had the 
 18       right to lead him, but OK.
 19       A.    It absolutely can help somebody to have 
 20  the denial of service laid out in front of you so 
 21  you know exactly what is involved and you know how 
 22  it's comprised, what the weaknesses are that would 
 23  allow something like that to happen.
 24             We have no interest in bringing the Net 
 25  down to a crawl, but it's something that I think 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  people should be aware of, absolutely.  There's a 
  3  lot of ignorance floating around out there now.  
  4  That's because not enough information is out there. 
  5       Q.    The term "hacker" has been used.  You 
  6  used that term.
  7       A.    Right.
  8       Q.    It means something to you.
  9       A.    Uh-huh.
 10       Q.    In fact, you've written about what the 
 11  term means.
 12       A.    Uh-huh.
 13       Q.    That's a yes.
 14       A.    Yes. 
 15       Q.    If you say "uh-huh," it really makes his 
 16  very hard job impossible. 
 17             And you have used the term "cracker."
 18       A.    I have addressed the term "cracker."  I 
 19  don't use that term myself.  It's a misuse of what 
 20  I believe that term is. 
 21       Q.    Can you explain the difference?
 22       A.    Well, I don't see cracker as a valid 
 23  definition at all.  I think that's simply a way of 
 24  defining hacking in a bad way without explaining 
 25  why it's bad.  So basically you have someone 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  defined as a cracker, you don't need to know any 
  3  more about them.  You just know that they're bad.  
  4  But you don't know what it is they did. 
  5             I prefer to think of it as you have 
  6  hacking and then you have criminal activity which 
  7  can be defined by the crime.  So I don't think 
  8  there's any need for another word.  But again, 
  9  that's my opinion.  A lot of people don't share it. 
 10       Q.    There was talk earlier about, I believe 
 11  about Jon Johansen and you have written about Jon 
 12  Johansen, correct?
 13       A.    On the web site I believe we have 
 14  written about Jon Johansen. 
 15       Q.    Have you ever spoken to Jon Johansen?
 16       A.    I have never in person, no.  
 17       Q.    Have you talked to him about this case?
 18       A.    There may have been like -- I might have 
 19  seen him in IRC once or someone who claimed to be 
 20  him.  Nothing in detail. 
 21       Q.    Have you E-mailed him?
 22       A.    I think we might have exchanged one or 
 23  two E-mails just to say hello. 
 24       Q.    You just wrote back two E-mails, hello, 
 25  hello? 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       A.    Well, no.  This is simply -- I am not 
  3  sure how the conversation would gotten started, if 
  4  it was even much of a conversation.  After all, he 
  5  is from Norway.  And I am not sure how good his 
  6  English is. 
  7             I think at one point there might have 
  8  been a mailing list that he and I were both on, and 
  9  I might have seen his name pop up and said hello to 
 10  him, or something like that.  Since we were both in 
 11  the news, we might have just passed pleasantries.  
 12  But there was no discussion of any real details.  I 
 13  don't really know that many of his details.  All I 
 14  know is what happened to him.  What was in the 
 15  newspapers, I haven't talked at length with him or 
 16  really anyone about that.
 17       Q.    Is it fair to say that you talked to 
 18  him, you had this E-mail exchange after November 
 19  1999?
 20       A.    It was after November, yes.
 21       Q.    Was it after January?
 22       A.    It was after the action against us.  It 
 23  was either in January, late January or shortly 
 24  thereafter.  I think it was around the time of the 
 25  Linux Expo actually.  That might have been it.

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       Q.    Did he tell you anything about Linux? 
  3       A.    Did he tell me anything about Linux? 
  4       Q.    Yes. 
  5       A.    No.
  6       Q.    Do you or does 2600 know who created 
  7  DeCSS?
  8       A.    As far as I know, that is something that 
  9  has never been definitively said one way or 
 10  another.  I didn't ask him if he was the person 
 11  behind it.
 12       Q.    Do you or 2600 know or have an opinion 
 13  as to who created DeCSS?
 14       A.    No.  I really have no knowledge about 
 15  that at all. 
 16       Q.    You said I think you used Napster once.
 17       A.    Once or maybe twice.
 18       Q.    Do you know what song you downloaded?
 19       A.    Most recently I remember it was an 
 20  article in Time magazine about some band that 
 21  everybody was going crazy over, and I wanted to 
 22  hear what they sounded like.  So I found one of 
 23  their songs and listened to it and that was it.  
 24  Just to see what they sounded like. 
 25             I forget the name of the band.  It was 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  some big article about their unique sound, the 
  3  unique sound of this band, and that's the only time 
  4  I remember. 
  5             I remember I looked at the program to 
  6  see how the program worked, and that was probably 
  7  the first time I used it.  But I don't think I 
  8  actually listened to a song then.  I looked at 
  9  lists.  I remember looking at lists, but I don't 
 10  think I actually listened to a song.
 11       Q.    To download though you stored a copy of 
 12  it on your hard drive. 
 13       A.    Yes, an MP3 had to be downloaded. 
 14       Q.    When you say downloaded, is it fair to 
 15  say you stored a copy to your hard drive?
 16       A.    For that, yes, it would be fair to say.
 17       Q.    I don't know another way to do it.  
 18  Maybe you do.  That's what I'm asking.
 19       A.    Well, there's streaming.  Streaming is 
 20  live playing over the bandwidth you have.  And then 
 21  I don't -- my understanding of Napster is that it 
 22  copies it over to your system and then you listen 
 23  to it from your system.  That's my understanding.  
 24  I haven't really looked into it that deeply.
 25       Q.    That's my understanding.  I am just 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  trying to see if that's how you did it. 
  3       A.    Right. 
  4       Q.    Do you know where the hard drive that 
  5  you -- is it still on your hard disk?
  6       A.    No, I don't think so.  I didn't like the 
  7  song.  In fact, I only listened to a couple of 
  8  seconds of it. 
  9       Q.    Did you pay for that copy?
 10       A.    There is no way to pay for an MP3 
 11  downloaded in that manner.
 12       Q.    Did you ever ask the copyright owner 
 13  whether -- 
 14             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to the form 
 15       of the question.  I don't see what it has to 
 16       do with this lawsuit. 
 17             MR. LITVACK:  Let me finish my 
 18       question.  I don't mean to cut off your 
 19       objection.  Just I thought it should be at 
 20       the end of the question. 
 21             MR. GARBUS:  I'm sorry, I thought you 
 22       had finished.  Go ahead. 
 23       Q.    Did you ever seek the authorization from 
 24  the copyright owner to make that copy? 
 25             THE WITNESS:  Are you going to object 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       now or do I answer? 
  3       Q.    That was the end.
  4             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question.  
  5       Answer it.
  6       A.    No.  I did not. 
  7       Q.    The way your web site operates, I take 
  8  it that unless you are enjoined, the linking, the 
  9  hyperlinks, the DeCSS, will just be up there as 
 10  long as your web site is up; is that fair?
 11       A.    Yes, that's a fair statement. 
 12       Q.    Was it your intention that if your 
 13  motion to lift the injunction against you and your 
 14  web site was granted that you would post DeCSS? 
 15             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to the 
 16       question.  Speculative. 
 17       A.    My understanding of legal issues, I 
 18  would assume that it would be back on our site if 
 19  we were allowed to put it on our site, yes.
 20       Q.    That would be your intention.  
 21       A.    Yes.  
 22       Q.    In your declaration, you criticize the 
 23  MPAA for sending cease and desist letters.  
 24  Paragraph 22. 
 25             "The letters ... are misleading and 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  intimidating, since they suggest that the recipient 
  3  'may' be subject to an injunction even though 
  4  Plaintiffs know very well that the recipient is 
  5  not." 
  6             Do you see that?
  7       A.    Yes. 
  8       Q.    You didn't discuss with any of the 
  9  plaintiffs what they know, did you?
 10       A.    What they know?  No, I didn't.
 11       Q.    Well, you're saying -- you could read 
 12  that I think fairly to say that you're testifying 
 13  to what the plaintiffs know. 
 14             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question. 
 15       Q.    One way you may know that is having 
 16  discussed it with some of them.  All I am asking is 
 17  did you discuss it with any of them. 
 18             MR. LITVACK:  And I cannot believe 
 19       that's an objectionable question.
 20             MR. GARBUS:  Go ahead.
 21       A.    There are lots of other web sites that 
 22  have information out there.  It's discussed among 
 23  people in many different forums, and this is one of 
 24  the things I came to knowledge. 
 25       Q.    So your basis for that statement is not 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  discussions with the plaintiffs?
  3       A.    No.  Well, they are not plaintiffs.  You 
  4  mean defendants, right? 
  5       Q.    No, you said plaintiffs.  "Plaintiffs 
  6  know very well that the recipient is not."
  7       A.    Oh, I see what you're saying.  No, I did 
  8  not discuss it with plaintiffs.
  9       Q.    Is part of your statement discussions 
 10  with your counsel?
 11       A.    I believe we have talked about this. 
 12       Q.    What did your plaintiffs tell you that 
 13  you adopted into that statement? 
 14       A.    Plaintiffs?
 15       Q.    What did your attorneys tell you that 
 16  you adopted into that statement? 
 17             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question.
 18             MR. LITVACK:  On the basis of?
 19             MR. GARBUS:  It's attorney-client.
 20             MR. LITVACK:  He said it forms the 
 21       basis of what he put into this statement. 
 22             MR. GARBUS:  It's still 
 23       attorney-client.
 24             MR. LITVACK:  I would urge that you 
 25       waived it when you built it into that 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       declaration.  Are you going to instruct him 
  3       not to answer? 
  4             MR. GARBUS:  Yes.
  5             MR. LITVACK:  Just so it is clear, our 
  6       position is that because he used it as part 
  7       of the foundation for that statement, you've 
  8       waived it.  
  9             MR GARBUS:  OK, I will let him answer 
 10       the question.  
 11             THE WITNESS:  Ask the question one 
 12       more time just so it's fresh in my mind.
 13             MR. GARBUS:  The understanding is that 
 14       it is not a waiver of the attorney-client 
 15       privilege, but with respect to this question 
 16       we'll permit him to finish the deposition. 
 17       Q.    What did your attorneys tell you in 
 18  regards to these letters?
 19       A.    My recollection is that while we may 
 20  have discussed it with my attorneys, I remember 
 21  this was an issue that came up on the Net 
 22  beforehand, that basically letters were being sent 
 23  out.  In fact, I believe this was posted on 
 24 as well, that other site, and other 
 25  sites, I am not certain as to which exact ones they 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2  were.  That other letters had been delivered, and 
  3  the way they were phrased was widely interpreted to 
  4  mean that although we have no jurisdiction over 
  5  you, you have to do what this letter says even 
  6  though it seemed apparent that they didn't have any 
  7  jurisdiction. 
  8             So to us, we saw that as kind of 
  9  posturing, as kind of a threat, that didn't have 
 10  any real basis.  So I think most of it was based on 
 11  discussions with other people on the Net.  I know I 
 12  talked about it in passing with my attorneys, but I 
 13  don't think it was the basis for that statement. 
 14       Q.    All I am asking you is what did they 
 15  say.
 16       A.    What did who say? 
 17       Q.    Your attorneys.
 18       A.    With regards to this? 
 19       Q.    Yes.
 20       A.    To be honest, I don't think they said 
 21  anything about the plaintiffs.  I don't remember 
 22  them saying anything about the plaintiffs.  I know 
 23  it was something that was touched upon very 
 24  briefly, but I don't think it was anything 
 25  significant.  I don't remember the details. 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2             MR. LITVACK:  Done.  Your witness. 
  3             MR. GOLD:  Mr. Garbus, there are some 
  4       things you had promised for today.  One of 
  5       them was an answer to whether we could have 
  6       our computer expert examine defendant's 
  7       computer and see what we can retrieve 
  8       relevant -- 
  9             MR. GARBUS:  I would object to that.  
 10       I have had a conversation with the 
 11       defendant.  I think the deposition is over 
 12       now.  And my understanding of what's on that 
 13       computer that you want is, first off, if 
 14       that were done, it would cause his operation 
 15       to stop, and the rest of his 
 16       operation could not go if the hard drives 
 17       were removed. 
 18             And secondly, as I understand it, the 
 19       hard drives contain a great deal of personal 
 20       information that does not just belong to 
 21, or Emmanuel Goldstein, but also 
 22       has information from other people. 
 23             MR. GOLD:  So we're not interested in 
 24       taking the hard drives.  We're interested in 
 25       looking at them to see if we can retrieve 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       messages relating to this lawsuit and DVD 
  3       and DeCSS.
  4             MR. GARBUS:  I understand.  I would 
  5       oppose it and we can go to the court for a 
  6       ruling on that.  Based on my understanding 
  7       of what's on the hard drives. 
  8             MR. GOLD:  Do you know that there's 
  9       nothing on the hard drives that relate to 
 10       DeCSS or this case? 
 11             MR. GARBUS:  No, I have never seen the 
 12       hard disks.  What I do know is that I spoke 
 13       to my client and he tells me that these hard 
 14       disks contain information from people other 
 15       than he, contain private correspondence 
 16       between people unrelated to or 
 17       Emmanuel Goldstein. 
 18             And that therefore, it would be, as he 
 19       understands it, a violation of their privacy  
 20       to turn over those hard drives. 
 21             Secondly, as I said before, any 
 22       interference with the hard disks would cause 
 23       a disruption.  So I suspect we can get a 
 24       ruling before the judge on that and we would 
 25       oppose.

  1                     Goldstein 
  2             MR. GOLD:  Your position is you can 
  3       keep from us irrelevant communications that 
  4       we would be entitled to receive, but we 
  5       can't because they are in his hard disk and 
  6       we're not supposed to touch that.  That's 
  7       what I am understanding. 
  8             MR. GARBUS:  I don't think you're 
  9       characterizing it correctly.  I do remind 
 10       you that we have asked for Mr. Schulman's 
 11       hard drive with respect to DeCSS tests that 
 12       he conducted and I don't want to get into 
 13       that. 
 14             I am saying that with respect to these 
 15       hard disks, I think that's an issue which we 
 16       should discuss with the court.  There may be 
 17       some way of doing it.  I don't know of a way 
 18       of doing it.  It may be that the judge could 
 19       appoint an impartial person and I don't know 
 20       that that's appropriate or something we 
 21       would want to do to determine what can or 
 22       can't be found on these hard drives. 
 23             I don't know how you do it, but I 
 24       don't have a sufficient knowledge of 
 25       technology to know how you can do this 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       without invading the privacy of other 
  3       people's correspondence.  According to what 
  4       I have been told, not by Mr. Goldstein so 
  5       much, but by other people familiar with 
  6       these hard drives --
  7             MR. GOLD:  Are you willing to identify 
  8       at least once today, we'll get the 
  9       identification of someone who passes all 
 10       this information on to people, but would 
 11       remain totally secret?  Which expert?  Which 
 12       expert did you talk to? 
 13             MR. GARBUS:  No, I am not going to get 
 14       into that.  What I am telling you is that we 
 15       are prepared to deal with any application 
 16       you make before Judge Kaplan concerning 
 17       these hard drives.
 18             MR. GOLD:  I'm impressed.  Did you now 
 19       turn over to us all of the documents that 
 20       Mr. Goldstein turned over to you?
 21             MR. GARBUS:  My understanding is that 
 22       we have.  I had understood that --
 23             MR. GOLD:  Is there a way to get a yes 
 24       or no to that even if not here? 
 25             MR. GARBUS:  We have turned over to 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       you all of the documents we had.  There are 
  3       other documents that we had asked be sent to 
  4       us.  We had understood they were to be 
  5       FedEx'd to us this morning from Long Island.  
  6       We haven't received them.
  7             MR. GOLD:  Which are they? 
  8             MR. GARBUS:  I think they are 
  9       additional copies of --
 10             THE WITNESS:  Earlier, they're really  
 11       issues. 
 12             MR. GARBUS:  -- earlier issues of The 
 13       Hacker Quarterly.  As soon as we get those 
 14       we'll of course give them to you.
 15             MR. GOLD:  We cannot consider this 
 16       deposition closed until we see the documents 
 17       that we should have gotten a couple of weeks 
 18       ago.
 19             One other thing I wanted to take up 
 20       with you, I don't know if you have ever seen 
 21       our notice to admit. 
 22             MR. GARBUS:  I have not.
 23             MR. GOLD:  It's past due, your 
 24       response to it is well past due.
 25             MR. GARBUS:  I have not seen it. 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2             MR. GOLD:  I would prefer not moving 
  3       before the court, and if you could tell me 
  4       tomorrow when we're going to get response to 
  5       our notice to commit, then I won't have to 
  6       go to the judge.
  7             MR. GARBUS:  I will speak to 
  8       Mr. Hernstadt.  I presume he has that. 
  9             MR. GOLD:  We have already sent him a 
 10       letter today -- 
 11             MR. GARBUS:  OK.
 12             MR. GOLD:  -- saying the same thing, 
 13       but I wanted you to know all of the things 
 14       that we feel that needed your light on.
 15             MR. GARBUS:  I appreciate the 
 16       courtesy.
 17             MR. LITVACK:  The only documents 
 18       produced are the tax returns and these 
 19       magazines. 
 20             MR. GARBUS:  No.  We had also, as I 
 21       told you yesterday, we had given you as part 
 22       of the motion on the injunction and the 
 23       linking, we had then taken the files that we 
 24       had and we attached it to the Goldstein 
 25       affidavit. 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2             So you had yesterday and Mr. Gold had 
  3       yesterday a pack of documents which Mr. Gold 
  4       asked me to have the client look at 
  5       overnight, which he did, which are these 
  6       pieces of paper.  So what I said yesterday 
  7       is we could again give you these documents 
  8       as the documents we have.  But we had given 
  9       them to you already.  And that's roughly 200 
 10       pages of something.  I don't know if it's 
 11       200 pages or not, but that's what it looks 
 12       like to me.
 13             MR. LITVACK:  I did not see them.  I 
 14       would suggest that Mr. Goldstein knows how 
 15       to print stuff from his hard disk as well as 
 16       just about anyone. 
 17             MR. GOLD:  Actually, he testified.  He 
 18       denied that.  He said he didn't think it 
 19       could be done.  He's tried to do it.
 20             MR. GARBUS:  To do what? 
 21             MR. GOLD:  And he can't do it.  That 
 22       was his testimony.
 23             MR. GARBUS:  To do what? 
 24             MR. LITVACK:  Then I stand corrected. 
 25             MR. GARBUS:  I think that also, as I 

  1                     Goldstein 
  2       said to you yesterday, that anything that 
  3       Mr. Goldstein has access to as I understand 
  4       it can be downloaded from the Web.  And what 
  5       I ask and what I would try and see whether I 
  6       can get done, and I raise that question 
  7       today, is whether there's some way, and you 
  8       had some of those documents yesterday, that 
  9       includes some of this, is whether through 
 10       any kind of electronic system we can give 
 11       you more documents that we have if we 
 12       haven't given you those and I am waiting for 
 13       a responsive answer to know that. 
 14             MR. GOLD:  Well, I think we are 
 15       finished for the day, but Mr. Goldstein, we 
 16       are not yet finished with your deposition 
 17       until we get our documents. 
 18             MR. GARBUS:  OK. 
 19             (Continued on the next page.)     

  1                     Goldstein
  2             THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  The time is 4:44 
  3       p.m. and this videotape deposition of 
  4       Mr. Emmanuel Goldstein will be adjourned 
  5       until a time and place to be agreed among 
  6       all parties and counsel, and this completes 
  7       tape number 5.
  8             (Time noted:  4:44 p.m.)
 10                        ____________________
 11                         EMMANUEL GOLDSTEIN
 13  Subscribed and sworn to before me
 14  this ___ day of __________, 2000.
 16  _________________________________

  2                C E R T I F I C A T E
  4                       : ss.  
  7             I, THOMAS R. NICHOLS, a Notary Public 
  8       within and for the State of New York, do 
  9       hereby certify:
 10             That EMMANUEL GOLDSTEIN, the witness 
 11       whose deposition is hereinbefore set forth, 
 12       was previously duly sworn and that such 
 13       deposition is a true record of the testimony 
 14       given by the witness.
 15             I further certify that I am not 
 16       related to any of the parties to this action 
 17       by blood or marriage, and that I am in no 
 18       way interested in the outcome of this 
 19       matter.
 20             IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto 
 21       set my hand this 29th day of June, 2000.
 23                              ____________________
 24                               THOMAS R. NICHOLS

  4  ------------------- I N D E X -------------------
  5  WITNESS                EXAMINATION BY        PAGE
  6  EMMANUEL GOLDSTEIN     MR. GOLD               168
  7                         MR. LITVACK            305
  9  ------------- INFORMATION REQUESTS --------------
 12  TO BE FURNISHED:   177
 13  REQUESTS:  171
 14  MOTIONS:   180, 193, 198, 214, 225, 273, 296, 245
 16  -------------------- EXHIBITS ------------------- 
 17  PLAINTIFFS'                                 FOR ID.
 18      6      Series of documents on               240
                web sites and web listings  
         7      2-page document, 2600 News Archives, 292
 20             December 1999
 21      8      3-page document, 2600: The Hacker    321 
                Quarterly, entitled "Call to Action