From john1@usa.netWed Apr 10 16:49:18 1996 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:12:10 -0600 (MDT) From: Fred Cherry To: declan@eff.org Subject: more mishegas >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:12 1995 Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!agate!news.ucdavis.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!nwu From: nwu@netcom.com (National Writers Union) Subject: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Message-ID: Organization: UAW Local 1981, AFL/CIO X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 23:02:49 GMT Lines: 87 Sender: nwu@netcom18.netcom.com Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306240 alt.censorship:55908 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32093 comp.org.eff.talk:57248 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6315 [alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse, comp.org.eff.talk, and news.admin.net-abuse.misc are added to soc.motss] Bob Donahue (donahue@omphalos.skepsis.com) wrote: : [Newsgroups trimmed] : Fred Cherry (john1@interport.net) wrote: : : There is no such thing as a heterosexual man who molests a boy. [Cherry goes on to assert that a child molested by a heterosexual man is a girl, by definition.] : Well, it looks like Fred has decided that his : new account is "safe" enough for him to cross the line : again. : Let's not make this one last 8 months. Those : addresses again are: : postmaster@interport.net : root@interport.net : john@interport.net : and the telephone # is 212 989 1128 (NYC). : Help keep *.motss homophobe-free. Contact Interport right away! : Cheers, : BBC, your c*b*l : cruise director The New Technologies Campaign, the Political Issues Committee, and the Queer Caucus of the National Writers Union take vigorous exception to denying -- or attempting to deny -- Internet access to anyone for the content of Usenet posts. This self-styled vigilantism is little better than bigotry hiding under a white sheet. A previous post suggests that Panix has refused further access to Fred Cherry. We call on Panix and Interport to give Cherry the same access enjoyed by any other user. If Cherry's opinions are hostile or ill-conceived, they can be answered in a public forum with reasoned arguments. Calling on system administrators to cancel his accounts recalls the Senate's theocratic endorsement of James Exon's move to restrict Internet content. It succeeds only in punishing Cherry for having the courage to post under his own name and in encouraging the use of anonymous remailers for the same content. Bob Donohue's call to restrain Cherry's access also tends to discredit the decades-long struggle to gain civil rights for homosexuals. We know too well the pain of backstage conspiracies denying us full enjoyment of the human condition. It is hypocritical that anyone identifying himself as a homosexual would use the same cowardly tactics against others. Cherry's typical use of a long "Newsgroups:" header does not abuse Internet hardware. Others using an even longer header, but with well-received content, are unchallenged. The header may be no longer than 1024 characters. Cherry's header is typically less than one-quarter that length. The argument that some groups are "inappropriate" is mere opinion. Cherry may be challenged in a peer-to-peer debate, but no one should be denied access enjoyed by others simply for that kind of judgment. The staffs of both Panix and Interport are outspoken supporters of the movement for uncensored public access. We call on them to practice what they preach and refrain from punishing Cherry to satisfy mob rule. Vicki Richman, Co-Chair New Technologies Campaign Bob Chatelle, Chair Political Issues Committee Both are members of the Queer Caucus. -- National Writers Union 873 Broadway #203 "Freedom is not something anyone UAW Local 1981 AFL-CIO New York NY 10003 can be given. Freedom is something nwu-info@netcom.com 212/254-0279 people take. . . ." -James Baldwin ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/nw/nwu >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:12 1995 Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.flame Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!ncar!uchinews!news From: Tim Pierce Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship X-Nntp-Posting-Host: ntcs-ip12.uchicago.edu Message-ID: Followup-To: alt.censorship,alt.stupidity,alt.flame Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) Organization: queernet/chicago References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 00:34:39 GMT Lines: 37 Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306250 alt.censorship:55916 comp.org.eff.talk:57253 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6320 alt.flame:208952 In article , National Writers Union wrote: > [yadda, yadda, yadda] Unfortunately, in this instance we *can* take Vicki Richman's and Bob Chatelle's ill-thought-out, muddled defenses of rabid homophobes to be official statements of the National Writers Union. Mr. Chatelle, as the Political Issues Chair for the NWU, is in a position to speak on its behalf. (I am honestly surprised that an organization of such stature would seriously refer to "whining" in an official statement, however.) >[alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse, comp.org.eff.talk, and >news.admin.net-abuse.misc are added to soc.motss] Oh, yes, please do. Why not add misc.writing, rec.arts.books, comp.admin.policy, news.software.nntp, and alt.sex.marketplace, while you're at it? None of them would be any *less* relevant to this hopelessly naive manifesto than the groups you did choose. If nothing else about this post indicates persuasively that you're talking out of your hat, the fact that you fall back on arguments about technical subjects -- for some unexplained reason -- and then get the technical aspects *wrong*, should suffice. I'm sure someone in the National Writers' Union knows a little bit about doing your research before making a fool of yourself; perhaps they'd be willing to lend you a few tips, ducks. Followups directed appropriately. -- By sending unsolicited commercially-oriented e-mail to this address, the sender agrees to pay a $100 flat fee to the recipient for proofreading services. >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:12 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!netaxs.com!grendel From: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 3 Jul 1995 02:09:25 GMT Organization: lockheed lockheed martin marietta Lines: 40 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3t7jgl$98p@netaxs.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> Reply-To: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) NNTP-Posting-Host: unix3.netaxs.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306180 alt.censorship:55878 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32086 comp.org.eff.talk:57222 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6302 In article , National Writers Union (nwu@netcom.com) wrote: > If Cherry's opinions are hostile or ill-conceived, they can > be answered in a public forum with reasoned arguments. Yup. Mr Cherry must also exercise some self control in confining his opinions to the appropriate newsgroups. The issue is not with his content; his article was perfectly on topic and appropriate for . The issue was that Fred, like the incontinent mongrel he is, added several newsgroups to his article's headers, and dribbled his spew into several places where the content was *not* appropriate. PANIX killed his account for this, and was perfectly justified. If Fred kept his anti-homosexual diatribes out of and in , no one would have complained to his postmaster in the first place. [ ... ] > Cherry's typical use of a long "Newsgroups:" header does not > abuse Internet hardware. Others using an even longer header, > but with well-received content, are unchallenged. The header > may be no longer than 1024 characters. Cherry's header is > typically less than one-quarter that length. Are you really this stupid? Fred Cherry's articles are technically valid and conform to RFC-1036, the standard for Usenet message interchange. The issue is not that his crossposting breaks Usenet (*not* Internet) software, but that the content of his articles is inappropriate for some (or all) of the newsgroups it has been crossposted to. [ ... ] > The argument that some groups are "inappropriate" is mere opinion. No, you dumbfuck, it's in the charter. That's not opinion. That's dogma. Blow off. -- Michael Handler Philadelphia, PA Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:12 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!news.mathworks.com!panix!glp.dialup.access.net!user From: glp@panix.com (Greg Parkinson) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: Sun, 02 Jul 1995 21:30:47 -0500 Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC Lines: 32 Distribution: inet Message-ID: References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.84.194.226 X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0b27.3 Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306141 alt.censorship:55869 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32083 comp.org.eff.talk:57214 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6298 In article , nwu@netcom.com (National Writers Union) wrote: > The New Technologies Campaign, the Political Issues > Committee, and the Queer Caucus of the National Writers > Union take vigorous exception to denying -- or attempting to > deny -- Internet access to anyone for the content of Usenet > posts. This self-styled vigilantism is little better than > bigotry hiding under a white sheet. Is this anything like Judges-L? I find _organizations_ posting as _organizations_ a bit creepy. How long have you been actively participating in Usenet? > The argument that some groups are "inappropriate" is mere > opinion. Cherry may be challenged in a peer-to-peer debate, > but no one should be denied access enjoyed by others simply > for that kind of judgment. Not long, I guess. It's a lot more than mere opinion. > Vicki Richman, Co-Chair > New Technologies Campaign Oh. ----------------------------------------------------- Greg Parkinson glp@panix.com ----------------------------------------------------- >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:12 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!news1.channel1.com!wizard.pn.com!sundog.tiac.net!usenet From: Bob Donahue Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 3 Jul 1995 03:58:46 GMT Organization: Skepsis Research and Development Lines: 91 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3t7ptm$j20@sundog.tiac.net> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: omphalos.skepsis.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (X11; I; BSD/386 1.1 i386) To: nwu@netcom.com X-URL: news:nwuDB42op.E7L@netcom.com Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306221 alt.censorship:55901 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32091 comp.org.eff.talk:57241 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6312 nwu@netcom.com (National Writers Union) wrote: >[alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse, comp.org.eff.talk, and >news.admin.net-abuse.misc are added to soc.motss] [This isn't a 1st Amendment issue. It's simply a USENET abuse issue.] >The New Technologies Campaign, the Political Issues >Committee, and the Queer Caucus of the National Writers >Union take vigorous exception to denying -- or attempting to >deny -- Internet access to anyone for the content of Usenet >posts. This self-styled vigilantism is little better than >bigotry hiding under a white sheet. Fine - show me all those sex-related postings to misc.jobs.offered. >A previous post suggests that Panix has refused further >access to Fred Cherry. We call on Panix and Interport to >give Cherry the same access enjoyed by any other user. Even if it's abused? >If Cherry's opinions are hostile or ill-conceived, they can >be answered in a public forum with reasoned arguments. Not in every single group. I think the k12.* people would take exception to that, and rightly, don't you? >Calling on system administrators to cancel his accounts >recalls the Senate's theocratic endorsement of James Exon's >move to restrict Internet content. It succeeds only in >punishing Cherry for having the courage to post under his >own name and in encouraging the use of anonymous remailers >for the same content. > >Bob Donohue's call to restrain Cherry's access also tends to >discredit the decades-long struggle to gain civil rights for >homosexuals. I made no such call. I called on people to register their complaints (or is that not allowed in your universe) for newsgroup abuse. > We know too well the pain of backstage >conspiracies denying us full enjoyment of the human >condition. It is hypocritical that anyone identifying >himself as a homosexual would use the same cowardly tactics >against others. We? > >Cherry's typical use of a long "Newsgroups:" header does not >abuse Internet hardware. Others using an even longer header, >but with well-received content, are unchallenged. The header >may be no longer than 1024 characters. Cherry's header is >typically less than one-quarter that length. ???! >The argument that some groups are "inappropriate" is mere >opinion. Cherry may be challenged in a peer-to-peer debate, >but no one should be denied access enjoyed by others simply >for that kind of judgment. That's why alt.politics.homosexuality was created. I wholeheartedly invite people to indulge themselves there. So, your "claims" are simply inaccurate, and unfounded. >The staffs of both Panix and Interport are outspoken >supporters of the movement for uncensored public access. We >call on them to practice what they preach and refrain from >punishing Cherry to satisfy mob rule. Their policies are fair. They were (and are) being abused. >Vicki Richman, Co-Chair >New Technologies Campaign > >Bob Chatelle, Chair >Political Issues Committee > >Both are members of the Queer Caucus. Which of course, no one has ever heard of. --- Commercial e-mail will be critiqued at $99.95 per 100 lines, 100 line minimum. Finder's fee for reporting Internet/USENET abuse is $29.95/instance. >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:12 1995 Path: news.interport.net!interport!not-for-mail From: john1@interport.net (Fred Cherry) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 3 Jul 1995 09:51:23 -0400 Organization: Interport Communications Corp. Lines: 123 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3t8skr$31p@interport.net> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: interport.net X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #4 (NOV) Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306309 alt.censorship:55959 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32100 comp.org.eff.talk:57272 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6342 In nwu@netcom.com (National Writers Union) writes: >[alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse, comp.org.eff.talk, and >news.admin.net-abuse.misc are added to soc.motss] >Bob Donahue (donahue@omphalos.skepsis.com) wrote: >: [Newsgroups trimmed] >: Fred Cherry (john1@interport.net) wrote: >: : There is no such thing as a heterosexual man who molests a boy. >[Cherry goes on to assert that a child molested by a >heterosexual man is a girl, by definition.] >: Well, it looks like Fred has decided that his >: new account is "safe" enough for him to cross the line >: again. >: Let's not make this one last 8 months. Those >: addresses again are: >: postmaster@interport.net >: root@interport.net >: john@interport.net >: and the telephone # is 212 989 1128 (NYC). >: Help keep *.motss homophobe-free. Contact Interport right away! >: Cheers, >: BBC, your c*b*l >: cruise director >The New Technologies Campaign, the Political Issues >Committee, and the Queer Caucus of the National Writers >Union take vigorous exception to denying -- or attempting to >deny -- Internet access to anyone for the content of Usenet >posts. This self-styled vigilantism is little better than >bigotry hiding under a white sheet. >A previous post suggests that Panix has refused further >access to Fred Cherry. We call on Panix and Interport to >give Cherry the same access enjoyed by any other user. >If Cherry's opinions are hostile or ill-conceived, they can >be answered in a public forum with reasoned arguments. >Calling on system administrators to cancel his accounts >recalls the Senate's theocratic endorsement of James Exon's >move to restrict Internet content. It succeeds only in >punishing Cherry for having the courage to post under his >own name and in encouraging the use of anonymous remailers >for the same content. >Bob Donohue's call to restrain Cherry's access also tends to >discredit the decades-long struggle to gain civil rights for >homosexuals. We know too well the pain of backstage >conspiracies denying us full enjoyment of the human >condition. It is hypocritical that anyone identifying >himself as a homosexual would use the same cowardly tactics >against others. >Cherry's typical use of a long "Newsgroups:" header does not >abuse Internet hardware. Others using an even longer header, >but with well-received content, are unchallenged. The header >may be no longer than 1024 characters. Cherry's header is >typically less than one-quarter that length. >The argument that some groups are "inappropriate" is mere >opinion. Cherry may be challenged in a peer-to-peer debate, >but no one should be denied access enjoyed by others simply >for that kind of judgment. >The staffs of both Panix and Interport are outspoken >supporters of the movement for uncensored public access. We >call on them to practice what they preach and refrain from >punishing Cherry to satisfy mob rule. >Vicki Richman, Co-Chair >New Technologies Campaign >Bob Chatelle, Chair >Political Issues Committee >Both are members of the Queer Caucus. >-- >National Writers Union 873 Broadway #203 "Freedom is not something anyone >UAW Local 1981 AFL-CIO New York NY 10003 can be given. Freedom is something >nwu-info@netcom.com 212/254-0279 people take. . . ." -James Baldwin >ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/nw/nwu To my friends at the National Writers Union: All I can say is that I'm Flabber Gasted. What's that? What's that you ask? You ask: "How is Mrs. Gasted"? Well, there is no Mrs. Gasted. I'm single. But seriously, friends, I AM truly amazed. Twenty nine years ago I asked the American Civil Liberties Union to defend my First Amendment right to mail postcards denouncing a certain homosexual clergyman who had written a book in which he insinuated that Jesus Christ was a homosexual. This was just one part of his doctrine that homosexuality was morally superior to heterosexuality. The American Civil Liberties Union refused my request for assistance.. Now, as is well known, the American Civil Liberties Union has defended the First Amendment rights of Nazis. They defended the First Amendment rights of the self-proclaimed Nazi George Lincoln Rockwell more than thirty years ago. They defended the First Amendment rights of another Nazi group less than twenty years ago at Skokie, Illinois. I had to defend myself in court against the censorship of the Post Office Department, and I lost. See, in almost any law library, the case of Cherry v. Postmaster General, 272 F. Supp. 982 (1967). And now you people, who are Gay, come along and defend ME. NOW do you understand why I am amazed? If this is a plot to get me to give up my so-called "homophobia", all I can say is that it has succeeded. I have legitimate complaints against SOME Gay people, and I will continue to express those complaints. But I definitely have to moderate the material I post. ************************************************************************* Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves. - Lincoln john1@interport.net, a.k.a. themadmailer@bix.com >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:12 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!news.mathworks.com!panix!not-for-mail From: vicric@panix.com (Vicki Richman) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Followup-To: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Date: 3 Jul 1995 11:41:26 -0400 Organization: National Writers Union (AFL/CIO) Lines: 59 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3t9336$kaa@panix2.panix.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t8skr$31p@interport.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix2.panix.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306345 alt.censorship:55970 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32102 comp.org.eff.talk:57278 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6352 >From <3t8skr$31p@interport.net>, by Fred Cherry , on 3 Jul 1995 09:51:23 -0400: > To my friends at the National Writers Union: > All I can say is that I'm Flabber Gasted. What's that? What's that you ask? > You ask: "How is Mrs. Gasted"? Well, there is no Mrs. Gasted. I'm single. > But seriously, friends, I AM truly amazed. Twenty nine years ago I asked > the American Civil Liberties Union to defend my First Amendment right to > mail postcards denouncing a certain homosexual clergyman who had written a > book in which he insinuated that Jesus Christ was a homosexual. This was > just one part of his doctrine that homosexuality was morally superior to > heterosexuality. The American Civil Liberties Union refused my request for > assistance.. Now, as is well known, the American Civil Liberties Union has > defended the First Amendment rights of Nazis. They defended the First > Amendment rights of the self-proclaimed Nazi George Lincoln Rockwell more > than thirty years ago. They defended the First Amendment rights of another > Nazi group less than twenty years ago at Skokie, Illinois. I had to defend > myself in court against the censorship of the Post Office Department, and I > lost. See, in almost any law library, the case of Cherry v. Postmaster > General, 272 F. Supp. 982 (1967). And now you people, who are Gay, come > along and defend ME. NOW do you understand why I am amazed? > If this is a plot to get me to give up my so-called "homophobia", all I can > say is that it has succeeded. I have legitimate complaints against SOME Gay > people, and I will continue to express those complaints. But I definitely > have to moderate the material I post. Fred, thanks for your beautiful follow-up to the NWU attack on canceling Internet access for Usenet content. I hope the staffs at Panix and Interport take note. As you know, both Bob Chatelle and I are homosexuals and militant homosexual activists. Some of the posted replies to our stand as NWU leaders suggested that we were heterosexual. Both of us were voted into office by an NWU membership that cared more about our ability than our sexual orientation. Neither of us has stopped speaking out on sexual issues simply because we represent the general membership. I know of your long support for the queer-rights movement. You're in every Pride March. You have many friends in the New York City lesbian and gay community, including me. I know that certain putative queer leaders excluded you in the early 70s, arguing that any male client of a female prostitute was necessarily hostile to women's rights, as were prostitutes who failed to give up their profession. I regret such self-destructive divisiveness. One minority group cannot enjoy civil rights unless all do. In Solidarity, Liquidity, and Gelatinousness, -- Vicki Richman vicric@panix.com National Writers Union Bedford, Brooklyn NY PGP 2.6 UAW Local 1981, AFL/CIO "Freedom is always and exclusively freedom for the one who thinks differently." -Rosa Luxemburg >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:12 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!news.mathworks.com!panix!dhuppert From: dhuppert@panix.com (Donald Huppert) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: Mon, 03 Jul 95 16:14:04 GMT Organization: PANIX Public Access and Internet, NYC Lines: 11 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3t950c$cak_001@dialup.access.net> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t8skr$31p@interport.net> <3t9336$kaa@panix2.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.84.247.210 X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306365 alt.censorship:55976 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32105 comp.org.eff.talk:57286 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6354 In article <3t9336$kaa@panix2.panix.com>, vicric@panix.com (Vicki Richman) wrote [of Fred Cherry]: >I know of your long support for the queer-rights movement. WHAT?????!!!! Don -- Donald J. Huppert >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:12 1995 Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!kimbark!rsdonley From: rsdonley@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Roger Donley) Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship X-Nntp-Posting-Host: midway.uchicago.edu Message-ID: Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) Reply-To: rsdonley@midway.uchicago.edu Organization: The University of Chicago References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t8skr$31p@interport.net> Distribution: inet Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 16:26:25 GMT Lines: 21 Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306371 alt.censorship:55978 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32107 comp.org.eff.talk:57288 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6357 In article <3t8skr$31p@interport.net>, Fred Cherry wrote: [about not being defended by the A.C.L.U. when other unpopular figures were] I wonder what you were charged with, Fred. I don't have access to a law library here, but will look up your case ASAP. I always wonder though, when people start knocking the ACLU because it defends right-wing idiots (or left wing idiots) but not their case. The ACLU takes cases depending on a lot of factors, including what will make a good test case and how widespread is the problem to be addressed (and how much press will it get if, like the Skokie Nazis, the speech is suppressed. Well, not really "how much press", but "how negative an impact" will it have.) They also are volunteer labor, for the most part. And survive on donations. They don't have enough $$ for every meritorious case that comes along. Yet, they have been the one organization to go before the U.S. Supreme Court the most (except the U.S. Govt) and have won substantial precedents. --Rog >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:12 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!news.mathworks.com!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!netaxs.com!grendel From: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 3 Jul 1995 16:45:44 GMT Organization: lockheed lockheed martin marietta Lines: 16 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3t96ro$qug@netaxs.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t8skr$31p@interport.net> <3t9336$kaa@panix2.panix.com> Reply-To: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) NNTP-Posting-Host: unix3.netaxs.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306384 alt.censorship:55981 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32109 comp.org.eff.talk:57291 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6358 Don't use broken Distribution: inet. Thanks. In article <3t9336$kaa@panix2.panix.com>, Vicki Richman (vicric@panix.com) wrote: > Both of us were voted into office by an NWU membership that cared more > about our ability than our sexual orientation. Do they consistently have a policy of voting clueless people into Official Positions? > I know of your long support for the queer-rights movement. What? -- Michael Handler Philadelphia, PA Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:12 1995 Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!noc.netcom.net!netcom.com!anderson From: anderson@netcom.com (Jay Anderson) Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Message-ID: Organization: Netcom References: <3t8skr$31p@interport.net> <3t9336$kaa@panix2.panix.com> <3t950c$cak_001@dialup.access.net> Distribution: inet Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 17:20:38 GMT Lines: 18 Sender: anderson@netcom5.netcom.com Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306401 alt.censorship:55985 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32110 comp.org.eff.talk:57293 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6361 In article <3t950c$cak_001@dialup.access.net> dhuppert@panix.com (Donald Huppert) writes: >In article <3t9336$kaa@panix2.panix.com>, > vicric@panix.com (Vicki Richman) wrote [of Fred Cherry]: > >>I know of your long support for the queer-rights movement. > >WHAT?????!!!! Didn't you know? You must have thought that queer meant gay and lesbian or even gay, lesbian, and bisexual. You didn't realize that queer now means those sex radicals whose sexual orientation is of being a customer of prostitutes. Who needs gay rights when we have queer rights and militant queer activists who defend Cherry posting his homophobic posts in soc.motss? >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:12 1995 Path: news.interport.net!interport!not-for-mail From: john1@interport.net (Fred Cherry) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 3 Jul 1995 13:52:42 -0400 Organization: Johns & Call Girls United Against Repression Lines: 227 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3t9apa$3s6@interport.net> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t7jgl$98p@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: interport.net X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #4 (NOV) Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306405 alt.censorship:55987 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32112 comp.org.eff.talk:57295 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6363 In Message-ID: <3t7jgl$98p@netaxs.com> Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 3 Jul 1995 02:09:25 GMT grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) wrote: >Yup. Mr Cherry must also exercise some self control in confining his >opinions to the appropriate newsgroups. The issue is not with his content; >his article was perfectly on topic and appropriate for >. The issue was that Fred, like the >incontinent mongrel he is, added several newsgroups to his article's >headers, and dribbled his spew into several places where the content was >*not* appropriate. PANIX killed his account for this, and was perfectly >justified. If Fred kept his anti-homosexual diatribes out of >and in , no one would have complained to his >postmaster in the first place. The reason Panix.com terminated my account is that Panix.com has its own political agenda, and it is the same as the agenda of soc.motss. Roy Radow, the chief spokesman for the North American Man/Boy Love Association (NAMBLA), an organization of homosexual child-molesters, used to have an account at Panix.com, and the management there thought better of him than they did of me. Here is the evidence: ---------------------------------snip-------------------------------- >From panix.chat Wed Feb 22 14:19:26 1995 Path: panix!not-for-mail From: alexis@panix.com (Alexis Rosen) Newsgroups: panix.chat Subject: Re: Netcom Contract Date: 21 Feb 1995 14:54:28 -0500 Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC Lines: 10 Message-ID: <3idgdk$3qe@panix4.panix.com> References: <3i0rgg$1o0@panix.com> <3i152k$513@panix.com> <3i16li$q1e@news.panix.com> <3ia4d9$2c5@panix3.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.7.0.5 john1@panix.com (Fred Cherry) writes: >Anyway, I'm glad that this happened. I later found out that Netcom is >where Roy Radow posts from. There isn't room enough on one service for >both myself and Roy Radow. As a matter of fact, there isn't room enough >on one PLANET for me and Roy Radow. Good ol' Roy Radow of Nambla? Never thought I'd miss him when he left. You never can tell... /a --------------------------------snip--------------------------------- Notice that Alexis Rosen, one of the two owners of Panix.com, says that Radow LEFT. So, as you see, Radow was welcome at Panix.com. Furthermore, Radow was posting to inappropriate newsgroups, as he still does, and the management at Panix.com KNEW he was posting to inappropriate newsgroups. Here, once again, is the evidence: ------------------------------snip------------------------------------ >From panix.chat Mon Mar 6 15:07:21 1995 Path: panix!not-for-mail From: mc@panix.com (Mara Chibnik) Newsgroups: panix.chat Subject: Re: I hope that we are careful out there... Date: 1 Mar 1995 09:49:43 -0500 Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC Lines: 25 Message-ID: <3j21i7$ctp@panix4.panix.com> References: <3i3rdv$e4p@panix.com> <3ie2p8$g52@panix2.panix.com> <3ikqmn$g4e@panix3.panix.com> <3io2a9$o8i@panix.com> <3isvic$8r3@panix.com> <3ivn70$4r4@panix3.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.7.0.5 john1@panix.com (Fred Cherry) writes: >How do you know that Radow wasn't posting his messages in incorrect >places? He is certainly doing that right now. See, for example, my 77 >line message in the panix.chat thread: "Reasonable doubt?" >Isn't it possible that Radow WAS posting in incorrect places and that you >were not aware of it? Isn't it true that the only time you do anything >about posts in incorrect places is when someone complains? Aren't you >aware that homosexuals are constantly trying to get their opponents >kicked off of the Internet? There was, for example, the time when Rod >Swift was trying to get Chuck Whealton censored, and Ken Weaverling, >Whealton's system administrator, refused to bow down to homosexual >pressure. We can take action only against such infractions as we discover. Most (but not all) infractions concerning inappropriate posting to netnews are called to our attention by readers of the affected newsgroups. This is true for spams as well as for inappropriate crossposting or any other netnews violation. -- Mara Chibnik Mara in the office mc@panix.com (212) 741-4400 -----------------------------------snip-------------------------------- Here's more. I'm sorry I have to include ALL of this stuff. But if I were to omit one iota, I would be accused of taking things out of context. -------------------------------snip------------------------------------ >From panix.chat Tue Feb 28 12:57:18 1995 Path: panix!not-for-mail From: john1@panix.com (Fred Cherry) Newsgroups: panix.chat Subject: Re: Reasonable doubt? Date: 27 Feb 1995 11:09:58 -0500 Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC Lines: 77 Message-ID: <3istgm$1si@panix3.panix.com> References: <3iqcb0$ihf@panix3.panix.com> <3iqeel$ktk@panix.com> <3irfo1$ght@panix3.panix.com> <3isl3u$stm@panix2.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix3.panix.com In Message-ID: <3isl3u$stm@panix2.panix.com> Newsgroups: panix.chat Subject: Re: Reasonable doubt? Date: 27 Feb 1995 08:46:38 -0500 newsome@panix.com (Richard Newsome) wrote: >>In article <3irfo1$ght@panix3.panix.com> john1@panix.com (Fred Cherry) >>writes: My motivation in attacking Wood was as follows: There was an >>organization which I joined in '64 known as the New York City League for >>Sexual Freedom. This was an organization of both heterosexuals and >>homosexuals. >Hmmm...did you happen to know a guy named Walter Breen there? (AKA >"John Eglinton"). He also had a friend named Robert Bashlow. It's interesting that you should mention the name "John Eglinton." I was never introduced to anyone with that name. But I am VERY familiar with a "J. Z. Eglinton." J. Z. Eglinton is the editor of the book: GREEK LOVE, which may be considered as the "bible" of NAMBLA. Roy Radow, the spokesperson for NAMBLA on the Internet goes forth from his home base at alt.sex.intergen and recommends that book. Here is an example of a complaint about Radow's activities. -----------------------------snip----------------------------------- >From sci.psychology Fri Jan 20 14:11:36 1995 Path: panix!news.mathworks.com!hookup!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!pipex!uunet!newstf01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: hohnm@aol.com (Hohnm) Newsgroups: sci.psychology Subject: Query: NAMBLA recruiting on Sci.Psychology & Censorship Date: 19 Jan 1995 08:29:24 -0500 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 13 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <3flpfk$c34@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Reply-To: hohnm@aol.com (Hohnm) I recently came across a response to a sci.psych request for information by a member of NAMBLA who suggested that the person seeking information check out their literature on "non-exploitive" cross-generational relationships. FYI, NAMBLA stands for North American Man-Boy Love Association. They promote sexual relationships between men and children. IMO I don't think they have a place in this newsgroup (or any other, for that matter, as IMO they are promoting criminal acitivities). I don't see a FAQ file at this moment so I can't answer the question "What is this newsgroup's position on censorship?" myself. I think it is an issue that should be considered. Mike Hohn Formerly from there and everywhere, now here. ---------------------------------snip---------------------------------- If you look into the alt.sex.intergen newsgroup, you can see a message by Radow in the thread: "An interpretation of what boys want (Was: NAMBLA." That message was posted on 2/26/95, so it will not expire for five more days. In that message you will see that Radow specifically states that the recommended NAMBLA reading list includes: "Greek Love by J.Z. Eglinton. Oliver Layton Press, New York, 1964." Here is another interesting fact. If you go to any public library that has The New York Times on microfilm, you can see that The Times carried ads for that book in the Sunday Book Review section on 7/3/66 and 7/10/66. On the other hand, at around the same time, The Times refused to carry an ad for the book: "Sex and Your Heart", by Myron Brenton. The info about Brenton's book comes from a magazine titled: "Censorship Today." Now, as for Bashlow, I vaguely remember that name. If I had a couple of weeks to spend, I could go over to the Big Yellow Whorehouse (oops, I mean the Big Yellow Warehouse) in Brooklyn and look though my junk and I could probably find some mention of Bashlow in the literature I saved from the time I was a member of the New York City League for Sexual freedom. john1@panix.com, a.k.a. themadmailer@bix.com -------------------------------snip------------------------------------ The reason that Radow of NAMBLA can get away with posting to inappropriate newsgroups, while I cannot even post to appropriate newsgroups is that the denizens of soc.motss know how to complain to sysadmins whenever they see anything they don't like. >> The argument that some groups are "inappropriate" is mere opinion. > >No, you dumbfuck, it's in the charter. That's not opinion. >That's dogma. Blow off. That's right. The soc.motss holy dogma says that debate on the subject of homosexuality can only be one sided. That is, the holy dogma of soc.motss says that any discussion on the subject of homosexuality must be one that glorifies and exalts homosexuality. Meanwhile, heterosexuality is constantly reviled and degraded. Furthermore, the denizens of soc.motss are constantly emerging from their holy sanctuary to attack and defame heterosexuality and heterosexuals. That is what this whole issue boils down to. I refuse to accept this situation and will continue to refuse to accept such a situation. ************************************************************************* Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves. - Lincoln john1@interport.net, a.k.a. themadmailer@bix.com >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!noc.netcom.net!news.consultix.com!newshost.marcam.com!news.mathworks.com!zombie.ncsc.mil!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!netaxs.com!grendel From: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Followup-To: alt.censorship Date: 3 Jul 1995 18:23:23 GMT Organization: lockheed lockheed martin marietta Lines: 51 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3t9cir$3q2@netaxs.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t7jgl$98p@netaxs.com> <3t9apa$3s6@interport.net> Reply-To: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) NNTP-Posting-Host: unix3.netaxs.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306418 alt.censorship:55994 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32114 comp.org.eff.talk:57298 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6367 Followups locked. In article <3t9apa$3s6@interport.net>, Fred Cherry (john1@interport.net) wrote: > Roy Radow, the chief spokesman for the North American Man/Boy Love > Association (NAMBLA), an organization of homosexual child-molesters, > used to have an account at Panix.com, and the management there thought > better of him than they did of me. Here is the evidence: [ snip ] I don't doubt it. What does it say about your net.behavior that a spokesperson for a child molesters lobby is more well liked than you? > The reason that Radow of NAMBLA can get away with posting to inappropriate > newsgroups, while I cannot even post to appropriate newsgroups is that the > denizens of soc.motss know how to complain to sysadmins whenever they see > anything they don't like. Can you provide examples of Roy Radow egregiously abusing crossposting as you have? Thought not. [ ... ] > >No, you dumbfuck, it's in the charter. That's not opinion. > >That's dogma. Blow off. > That's right. The soc.motss holy dogma says that debate on the subject of > homosexuality can only be one sided. Glad you're finally getting it, Fred. isn't interested in the "homosexuality is {good, bad}" debate. So keep it out of here. > Meanwhile, heterosexuality is constantly reviled and degraded. What? > Furthermore, the denizens of soc.motss are constantly emerging from > their holy sanctuary to attack and defame heterosexuality and > heterosexuals. This means nothing. There is no hive mind. There is no cabal. My behaviors inside and my behaviors in other newsgroups bear no relation to each other. The same is true for Rod Swift and anyone else you would care to bring up. > That is what this whole issue boils down to. I refuse to accept this > situation and will continue to refuse to accept such a situation. All together now! "I *won't* grow up..." -- Michael Handler Philadelphia, PA Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!interport!not-for-mail From: john1@interport.net (Fred Cherry) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 3 Jul 1995 14:41:28 -0400 Organization: Johns & Call Girls United Against Repression Lines: 22 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3t9dko$bfc@interport.net> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t8skr$31p@interport.net> <3t9336$kaa@panix2.panix.com> <3t950c$cak_001@dialup.access.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: interport.net X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #4 (NOV) Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306420 alt.censorship:55995 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32116 comp.org.eff.talk:57299 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6368 In <3t950c$cak_001@dialup.access.net> dhuppert@panix.com (Donald Huppert) writes: >In article <3t9336$kaa@panix2.panix.com>, > vicric@panix.com (Vicki Richman) wrote [of Fred Cherry]: >>I know of your long support for the queer-rights movement. >WHAT?????!!!! >Don >-- >Donald J. Huppert Ms. Richman has a strange sense of humor, sometimes. ************************************************************************* Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves. - Lincoln john1@interport.net, a.k.a. themadmailer@bix.com >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!interport!not-for-mail From: john1@interport.net (Fred Cherry) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 3 Jul 1995 14:50:08 -0400 Organization: Interport Communications Corp. Lines: 24 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3t9e50$ce7@interport.net> References: <3t8skr$31p@interport.net> <3t9336$kaa@panix2.panix.com> <3t950c$cak_001@dialup.access.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: interport.net X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #4 (NOV) Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306426 alt.censorship:56001 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32117 comp.org.eff.talk:57303 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6369 In anderson@netcom.com (Jay Anderson) writes: >In article <3t950c$cak_001@dialup.access.net> dhuppert@panix.com (Donald Huppert) writes: >>In article <3t9336$kaa@panix2.panix.com>, >> vicric@panix.com (Vicki Richman) wrote [of Fred Cherry]: >> >>>I know of your long support for the queer-rights movement. >> >>WHAT?????!!!! >Didn't you know? You must have thought that queer >meant gay and lesbian or even gay, lesbian, and >bisexual. You didn't realize that queer now means >those sex radicals whose sexual orientation is of >being a customer of prostitutes. So, what's so wrong about that? ************************************************************************* Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves. - Lincoln john1@interport.net, a.k.a. themadmailer@bix.com >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!news.mathworks.com!zombie.ncsc.mil!admii!cmcl2!is2.NYU.EDU!dwf4930 From: dwf4930@is2.nyu.edu (David W. Fenton) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Followup-To: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Date: 3 Jul 1995 19:51:15 GMT Organization: New York University Lines: 8 Message-ID: <3t9hnj$gmg@cmcl2.NYU.EDU> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: is2.nyu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306490 alt.censorship:56048 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32120 comp.org.eff.talk:57324 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6382 National Writers Union (nwu@netcom.com) wrote: [muddleheaded tripe deleted] Is this a troll? David W. Fenton New York University dwf4930@is2.nyu.edu >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:13 1995 Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!noc.netcom.net!netcom.com!wotan From: wotan@netcom.com (Wotan) Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Message-ID: Sender: wotan@netcom22.netcom.com Organization: Hades X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent v0.55 References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t8skr$31p@interport.net> Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 23:30:56 GMT Lines: 56 Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306448 alt.censorship:56012 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32118 comp.org.eff.talk:57310 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6372 john1@interport.net (Fred Cherry) wrote: >To my friends at the National Writers Union: >All I can say is that I'm Flabber Gasted. What's that? What's that you ask? >You ask: "How is Mrs. Gasted"? Well, there is no Mrs. Gasted. I'm single. >But seriously, friends, I AM truly amazed. Twenty nine years ago I asked >the American Civil Liberties Union to defend my First Amendment right to >mail postcards denouncing a certain homosexual clergyman who had written a >book in which he insinuated that Jesus Christ was a homosexual. This was >just one part of his doctrine that homosexuality was morally superior to >heterosexuality. The American Civil Liberties Union refused my request for >assistance.. Now, as is well known, the American Civil Liberties Union has >defended the First Amendment rights of Nazis. They defended the First >Amendment rights of the self-proclaimed Nazi George Lincoln Rockwell more >than thirty years ago. They defended the First Amendment rights of another >Nazi group less than twenty years ago at Skokie, Illinois. I had to defend >myself in court against the censorship of the Post Office Department, and I >lost. See, in almost any law library, the case of Cherry v. Postmaster >General, 272 F. Supp. 982 (1967). And now you people, who are Gay, come >along and defend ME. NOW do you understand why I am amazed? >If this is a plot to get me to give up my so-called "homophobia", all I can >say is that it has succeeded. I have legitimate complaints against SOME Gay >people, and I will continue to express those complaints. But I definitely >have to moderate the material I post. I would say Fred that these two people are bigger men than you are. They may not know what you are saying. If they did, they probably wouldn't like it. But they are willing to defend your right to say it - something that you probably wouldn't have done if your positions were reversed. However, there is a time and place for everything. The folks in soc.motss have stated that they don't want your comments,and that they violate the groups charter. That having been said, you should have shown some respect and stopped your postings. After all, you don't have the right to say what you want, where you want even though the First Ammendment gaurantees you free speech. Try yelling Fire in a movie theater to find out why. >************************************************************************* >Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves. - Lincoln He wasn't the first to say this. Ben Franklin was paraphrased "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin, ~1784 >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!sundog.tiac.net!omphalos.skepsis.com!donahue From: donahue@omphalos.skepsis.com (Bob Donahue) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Followup-To: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Date: 4 Jul 1995 02:25:23 GMT Organization: Skepsis Research and Development Lines: 11 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3ta8qj$buu@sundog.tiac.net> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t8skr$31p@interport.net> <3t9336$kaa@panix2.panix.com> <3t950c$cak_001@dialup.access.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: omphalos.skepsis.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306535 alt.censorship:56071 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32124 comp.org.eff.talk:57334 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6390 Donald Huppert (dhuppert@panix.com) wrote: : In article <3t9336$kaa@panix2.panix.com>, : vicric@panix.com (Vicki Richman) wrote [of Fred Cherry]: : >I know of your long support for the queer-rights movement. : WHAT?????!!!! It's a troll. >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!news.mathworks.com!panix!not-for-mail From: vicric@panix.com (Vicki Richman) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Followup-To: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Date: 4 Jul 1995 05:55:00 -0400 Organization: National Writers Union (AFL/CIO) Lines: 35 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tb35k$c6t@panix2.panix.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t8skr$31p@interport.net> <3t9336$kaa@panix2.panix.com> <3t950c$cak_001@dialup.access.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix2.panix.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306600 alt.censorship:56109 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32132 comp.org.eff.talk:57377 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6394 >From <3t950c$cak_001@dialup.access.net>, by Donald Huppert , on Mon, 03 Jul 95 16:14:04 GMT: > In article <3t9336$kaa@panix2.panix.com>, > vicric@panix.com (Vicki Richman) wrote [of Fred Cherry]: > >I know of your long support for the queer-rights movement. > WHAT?????!!!! Fred was one of the founders of the League for Sexual Freedom, which predated Stonewall by half a dozen years. The group supported gay rights. (Lesbians called themselves gay back then.) Many homosexual rights today may be traced back to Fred's work with LSF. Fred supports the right of lesbian, male, and transgendered prostitutes to conduct business openly and legally. He regularly joins the Pride March with that message. He was a volunteer observer in a civil-disobedience campaign in support of prostitutes against the New York Police Department. I covered it for Majority Report, the feminist and largely lesbian biweekly. Many of the participants were lesbians. (In fact, that may be why the demonstration failed to gain a single arrest. The cops took one look at us in heels and makeup, and laughed.) -- Vicki Richman vicric@panix.com National Writers Union Bedford, Brooklyn NY PGP 2.6 UAW Local 1981, AFL/CIO "Freedom is always and exclusively freedom for the one who thinks differently." -Rosa Luxemburg >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!news.mathworks.com!panix!not-for-mail From: vicric@panix.com (Vicki Richman) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Followup-To: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Date: 4 Jul 1995 06:26:03 -0400 Organization: National Writers Union (AFL/CIO) Lines: 32 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tb4vr$enl@panix2.panix.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t8skr$31p@interport.net> <3t9336$kaa@panix2.panix.com> <3t96ro$qug@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix2.panix.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306603 alt.censorship:56112 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32133 comp.org.eff.talk:57380 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6397 In alt.censorship <3t96ro$qug@netaxs.com>, on 3 Jul 1995 16:45:44 GMT, you wrote: > Don't use broken Distribution: inet. Thanks. Don't use "Distribution:" period. Almost every NNTP site ignores it. > In article <3t9336$kaa@panix2.panix.com>, > Vicki Richman (vicric@panix.com) wrote: > > Both of us were voted into office by an NWU membership that cared more > > about our ability than our sexual orientation. > Do they consistently have a policy of voting clueless people into > Official Positions? The only voting policy of the 4000-member National Writers Union is open nominations at the Delegates Assembly and secret ballots mailed to all members. > Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics I agree that a pair of real and imaginary numbers is quite liberating. But surely that branch of math has little to do with cryptology, which now concentrates on the factoring of large real numbers. -- Vicki Richman vicric@panix.com National Writers Union Bedford, Brooklyn NY PGP 2.6 UAW Local 1981, AFL/CIO "Freedom is always and exclusively freedom for the one who thinks differently." -Rosa Luxemburg >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!interport!not-for-mail From: john1@interport.net (Fred Cherry) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 4 Jul 1995 08:07:57 -0400 Organization: Johns & Call Girls United Against Repression Lines: 20 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tbaut$bh0@interport.net> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t8skr$31p@interport.net> <3t9336$kaa@panix2.panix.com> <3t96ro$qug@netaxs.com> <3tb4vr$enl@panix2.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: interport.net X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #4 (NOV) Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306610 alt.censorship:56120 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32135 comp.org.eff.talk:57383 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6400 In <3tb4vr$enl@panix2.panix.com> vicric@panix.com (Vicki Richman) writes: >> Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics >I agree that a pair of real and imaginary numbers is quite >liberating. But surely that branch of math has little to do >with cryptology, which now concentrates on the factoring of >large real numbers. Knuth favors the linear congruential method. See, in general, THE ART OF COMPUTER PROGRAMMING, second edition, by Donald E. Knuth, Volume 2 / Seminumerical Algorithms, Chapter 3--Random Numbers. ************************************************************************* Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves. - Lincoln john1@interport.net, a.k.a. themadmailer@bix.com >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!sundog.tiac.net!omphalos.skepsis.com!donahue From: donahue@omphalos.skepsis.com (Bob Donahue) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 4 Jul 1995 16:31:32 GMT Organization: Skepsis Research and Development Lines: 37 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tbqd4$dta@sundog.tiac.net> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t8skr$31p@interport.net> <3t9336$kaa@panix2.panix.com> <3t950c$cak_001@dialup.access.net> <3tb35k$c6t@panix2.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: omphalos.skepsis.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306630 alt.censorship:56146 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32139 comp.org.eff.talk:57415 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6406 Vicki Richman (vicric@panix.com) wrote: : Fred was one of the founders of the League for Sexual : Freedom, which predated Stonewall by half a dozen years. The : group supported gay rights. (Lesbians called themselves gay : back then.) *Was* : Many homosexual rights today may be traced back to Fred's : work with LSF. Please list them. : Fred supports the right of lesbian, male, and transgendered : prostitutes to conduct business openly and legally. He : regularly joins the Pride March with that message. All well and good - but we're addressing his homophobic postings to the *.motss groups. : He was a volunteer observer in a civil-disobedience campaign : in support of prostitutes against the New York Police : Department. I covered it for Majority Report, the feminist : and largely lesbian biweekly. Many of the participants were : lesbians. (In fact, that may be why the demonstration : failed to gain a single arrest. The cops took one look at us : in heels and makeup, and laughed.) *Was* At some point, are you intending to catch up and address *current* events? First, do you deny that Mr. Cherry *has* posted anti-GBLO* things to newsgroups who charters state they are "safe spaces from online homophobia"? >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:13 1995 Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!news From: Tim Pierce Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship X-Nntp-Posting-Host: ntcs-ip7.uchicago.edu Message-ID: Followup-To: alt.censorship Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) Organization: Vinegar Cabal References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3t96ro$qug@netaxs.com> <3tb4vr$enl@panix2.panix.com> <3tbaut$bh0@interport.net> Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 00:48:06 GMT Lines: 27 Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306735 alt.censorship:56191 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32144 comp.org.eff.talk:57458 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6444 In article <3tbaut$bh0@interport.net>, Fred Cherry wrote: >In <3tb4vr$enl@panix2.panix.com> vicric@panix.com (Vicki Richman) writes: > >>> Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics > >>I agree that a pair of real and imaginary numbers is quite >>liberating. But surely that branch of math has little to do >>with cryptology, which now concentrates on the factoring of >>large real numbers. > >Knuth favors the linear congruential method. See, in general, THE ART OF >COMPUTER PROGRAMMING, second edition, by Donald E. Knuth, Volume 2 / >Seminumerical Algorithms, Chapter 3--Random Numbers. That reference is something like twenty years old. I would ask you to provide some comparison with more up-to-date works in the field, but frankly, I would not advise either of you to attempt to preen your feathers by getting into an argument about mathematics and cryptanalysis with Michael Handler. -- By sending unsolicited commercially-oriented e-mail to this address, the sender agrees to pay a $100 flat fee to the recipient for proofreading services. >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news1.ucsd.edu!nothing.ucsd.edu!brian From: brian@nothing.ucsd.edu (Brian Kantor) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 5 Jul 1995 03:24:12 GMT Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd. Lines: 15 Message-ID: <3td0ks$bv@news2.ucsd.edu> References: <3t9336$kaa@panix2.panix.com> <3t96ro$qug@netaxs.com> <3tb4vr$enl@panix2.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: nothing.ucsd.edu Summary: run screaming into the night Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306757 alt.censorship:56198 vicric@panix.com (Vicki Richman) writes: >Don't use "Distribution:" period. Almost every NNTP site >ignores it. Yes, and that's a major problem. When we wrote NNTP, we really hoped that people would find it easy to use and set up. Alas, I must forever bear responsibility for the mess that Usenet is now - without NNTP, it might still be a small friendly network. Is the only solution to invent a new and totally incompatable news system and start over? - Brian "what have they done with my network!!?!?" >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news1.ucsd.edu!nothing.ucsd.edu!brian From: brian@nothing.ucsd.edu (Brian Kantor) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 5 Jul 1995 03:44:12 GMT Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3td1qc$cb@news2.ucsd.edu> References: <3tb4vr$enl@panix2.panix.com> <3td0b0$2hq@news1.ucsd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: nothing.ucsd.edu Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306762 alt.censorship:56201 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32146 comp.org.eff.talk:57470 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6452 nfitch@ucsd.edu (the canary down the hall, Nick Fitch) writes: >By the way, does my whining to you when the newsfeed goes down count as >censorship? Me censoring you, or you censoring me? Neither, I suspect. It's just another manifestation of The Innate Perversity of Mechanical Objects. A principle with which we're all too familiar, I regret to say. >We're using it to distribute kiddie porn to the masses, recruit young boys >as probationary homosexuals and stifle freedom of speech. Haven't you >been reading the newspapers lately? No, I only look at the pictures. The local rag is unreadable anyway, and the LA Times has priced itself out of competition. The weekly Reader enters my home primarily for its final destination: the bottom of the catbox. I *am* a few weeks behind in my New Yorkers. Perhaps it's time for me to take a candle outside to the hot tub and catch up on my reading. - Brian >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!darwin.sura.net!martha.utk.edu!panacea.phys.utk.edu!dbd From: dbd@panacea.phys.utk.edu (David DeLaney) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Followup-To: soc.motss,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Date: 5 Jul 1995 03:57:45 GMT Organization: Formerly U. Tenn. Knoxville/Physics Dept.; presently extremely dis Lines: 42 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3td2jp$7bl@martha.utk.edu> References: <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: panacea.phys.utk.edu Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306810 alt.censorship:56235 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32150 comp.org.eff.talk:57501 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6477 nwu@netcom.com (National Writers Union) writes: >[alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse, comp.org.eff.talk, and >news.admin.net-abuse.misc are added to soc.motss] >The New Technologies Campaign, the Political Issues >Committee, and the Queer Caucus of the National Writers >Union take vigorous exception to denying -- or attempting to >deny -- Internet access to anyone for the content of Usenet >posts. This self-styled vigilantism is little better than >bigotry hiding under a white sheet. The NTC, the PIC, and the QCNWU might try *reading* what BBC wrote; Fred Cherry periodically decides that it's time, once again, to post things to soc.motss *which are directly forbidden by the charter of that group*, and loses his account as a result. Nobody's "denying him Internet access for the content of Usenet posts"; they're pointing out to his sysadmin that he is posting *in the wrong place on Usenet*, having been told time and again that that particular group _does not want his posts there_. Sheesh. >If Cherry's opinions are hostile or ill-conceived, they can >be answered in a public forum with reasoned arguments. Cherry's opinions *do not belong in the group he placed them in*; the proper public forum for them is alt.politics.homosexuality . He knows this very well, but still bothers soc.motss periodically; he can bloody well live with the consequences of doing so. >The argument that some groups are "inappropriate" is mere >opinion. Go read the soc.motss FAQ before posting incorrect information such as the above, please. Then come back and apologize. Followups narrowed to *apporpriate* groups. Double sheesh. Dave "Take your posts elsewhere and out of our group != censorship" DeLaney -- \/DavidDeLaneydbd@panacea.phys.utk.edu "It's not the pot thatgrows the flower It's not the clock thatslows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see Love isall it takes tomake a family" - R&P. Disclaimer: IMHO;VRbeableURLAP http://enigma.phys.utk.edu/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K. >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:14 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news1.ucsd.edu!julius.extern.ucsd.edu!user From: nfitch@ucsd.edu (Nick Fitch) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: Tue, 04 Jul 1995 20:49:54 -0800 Organization: Frankensteins Anonymous Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <3t9336$kaa@panix2.panix.com> <3t96ro$qug@netaxs.com> <3tb4vr$enl@panix2.panix.com> <3td0b0$2hq@news1.ucsd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: julius.extern.ucsd.edu X-Newsreader: Value-Added NewsWatcher 2.0b24.0+ Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306760 alt.censorship:56200 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32145 comp.org.eff.talk:57467 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6451 In article <3td0b0$2hq@news1.ucsd.edu>, brian@nothing.ucsd.edu (Brian Kantor) wrote: >vicric@panix.com (Vicki Richman) writes: >>Don't use "Distribution:" period. Almost every NNTP site >>ignores it. > >Yes, and that's a major problem. When we wrote NNTP, we really hoped >that people would find it easy to use and set up. Alas, I must forever >bear responsibility for the mess that Usenet is now - without NNTP, >it might still be a small friendly network. Yes, well, as much as I'd like to smack you around for making it too damn easy I can't, in all honesty, hold you responsible for AOL or the National Writers Union. >Is the only solution to invent a new and totally incompatable news >system and start over? Do try and make a better job of it this time, dear. We want something easy to use but completely incomprehensible. Think about the Macintosh operating system. By the way, does my whining to you when the newsfeed goes down count as censorship? > > - Brian > "what have they done with my network!!?!?" We're using it to distribute kiddie porn to the masses, recruit young boys as probationary homosexuals and stifle freedom of speech. Haven't you been reading the newspapers lately? -- Nick -- "He is persuaded to dress up 'from head to foot in a single thick rubber combination-overall, with rubber gloves, and a helmet with ear-flaps of the same material.' Carnacki matches him. And they creak into action like submarine fetishists." - Iain Sinclair on Hope-Hodgson's "The Hog" >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:14 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.moneng.mei.com!news.ecn.bgu.edu!psuvax1!psuvax1!flee From: flee@cse.psu.edu (Felix Lee) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 05 Jul 1995 05:03:55 GMT Organization: Penn State Comp Sci & Eng Lines: 6 Message-ID: References: <3t9336$kaa@panix2.panix.com> <3t96ro$qug@netaxs.com> <3tb4vr$enl@panix2.panix.com> <3td0ks$bv@news2.ucsd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: algol.cse.psu.edu Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306778 alt.censorship:56208 Brian Kantor: > Is the only solution to invent a new and totally incompatable news > system and start over? yep. (anyone want to fund me for a year so I can develop it? :) -- >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:14 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news1.ucsd.edu!julius.extern.ucsd.edu!user From: nfitch@ucsd.edu (Nick Fitch) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: Tue, 04 Jul 1995 21:40:32 -0800 Organization: Frankensteins Anonymous Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <3tb4vr$enl@panix2.panix.com> <3td0b0$2hq@news1.ucsd.edu> <3td1qc$cb@news2.ucsd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: julius.extern.ucsd.edu X-Newsreader: Value-Added NewsWatcher 2.0b24.0+ Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306774 alt.censorship:56207 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32147 comp.org.eff.talk:57479 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6453 In article <3td1qc$cb@news2.ucsd.edu>, brian@nothing.ucsd.edu (Brian Kantor) wrote: >nfitch@ucsd.edu (the canary down the hall, Nick Fitch) writes: >>By the way, does my whining to you when the newsfeed goes down count as >>censorship? > >Me censoring you, or you censoring me? I have no idea. Ask Ms Richman, she apparently is the expert on the censorship inherent in contacting sysadmins with information they might wish to know, and I'm sure that as an expert representing an August Body of some 4000 souls she must have a terribly good reason for saying so in front of several hundred thousand people. Perhaps if we all ask her nicely she'll explain what it is. >>We're using it to distribute kiddie porn to the masses, recruit young boys >>as probationary homosexuals and stifle freedom of speech. Haven't you >>been reading the newspapers lately? > >No, I only look at the pictures. The local rag is unreadable anyway, >and the LA Times has priced itself out of competition. The weekly >Reader enters my home primarily for its final destination: the bottom >of the catbox. Ah, the perfect use for the Reader, its ink being too loose and the paper too coarse for human bathroom tissue. -- Nick -- "He is persuaded to dress up 'from head to foot in a single thick rubber combination-overall, with rubber gloves, and a helmet with ear-flaps of the same material.' Carnacki matches him. And they creak into action like submarine fetishists." - Iain Sinclair on Hope-Hodgson's "The Hog" >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:14 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!hookup!news.kei.com!ub!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!netaxs.com!grendel From: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 5 Jul 1995 06:02:44 GMT Organization: lockheed lockheed martin marietta Lines: 16 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3td9u4$qc3@netaxs.com> References: <3tb4vr$enl@panix2.panix.com> <3td0b0$2hq@news1.ucsd.edu> <3td1qc$cb@news2.ucsd.edu> Reply-To: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) NNTP-Posting-Host: unix3.netaxs.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306804 alt.censorship:56231 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32148 comp.org.eff.talk:57500 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6472 The craggy Doktor Fitch scripsit: > We're using it to distribute kiddie porn to the masses, recruit young boys > as probationary homosexuals and stifle freedom of speech. Haven't you > been reading the newspapers lately? And in article <3td1qc$cb@news2.ucsd.edu>, Brian Kantor, RFC Author to the Gods and certified net.old-timer, (brian@nothing.ucsd.edu) wrote: > No, I only look at the pictures. Oh. So, you saw my picture, then. Did I mention how much old time news hackers turn me on? ::giggle:: -- Michael Handler Philadelphia, PA Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:14 1995 Path: news.interport.net!interport!not-for-mail From: john1@interport.net (Fred Cherry) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 5 Jul 1995 10:45:06 -0400 Organization: Johns & Call Girls United Against Repression Lines: 104 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3te8hi$l0k@interport.net> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t7ptm$j20@sundog.tiac.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: interport.net X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #4 (NOV) Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306835 alt.censorship:56242 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32152 comp.org.eff.talk:57505 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6487 In Message-ID: <3t7ptm$j20@sundog.tiac.net> Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 3 Jul 1995 03:58:46 GMT Bob Donahue wrote: >>The New Technologies Campaign, the Political Issues >>Committee, and the Queer Caucus of the National Writers >>Union take vigorous exception to denying -- or attempting to >>deny -- Internet access to anyone for the content of Usenet >>posts. This self-styled vigilantism is little better than >>bigotry hiding under a white sheet. > > Fine - show me all those sex-related postings to misc.jobs.offered. > >>A previous post suggests that Panix has refused further >>access to Fred Cherry. We call on Panix and Interport to >>give Cherry the same access enjoyed by any other user. > > Even if it's abused? > >>If Cherry's opinions are hostile or ill-conceived, they can >>be answered in a public forum with reasoned arguments. > > Not in every single group. I think the k12.* people >would take exception to that, and rightly, don't you? ALL of the groups I crosspost to are appropriate forums for my messages. The k12 newsgroups would NOT be appropriate. Here is the list I have been using lately: Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.homosexual,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.sex,alt.sex.services,alt.sex.brothels,soc.men,soc,women,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.mens-rights,ne.motss,soc.motss,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.african.american It might seem that soc.culture israel is an inappropriate newsgroup. However, almost every time I post anything, Rod Swift, a homosexual neo- nazi has something to say. I wish to show the people of Israel that there are homosexual neo-nazis on the Internet. It might seem that soc.culture.african.american is an inappropriate newsgroup. However, there was a recent poster who claimed that gays suffered more from discrimination than blacks. That's when I put soc.culture.african.american on my crosspost list. >>Bob Donohue's call to restrain Cherry's access also tends to >>discredit the decades-long struggle to gain civil rights for >>homosexuals. > > I made no such call. I called on people to >register their complaints (or is that not allowed in your >universe) for newsgroup abuse. Are you serious? YOU, sir, called upon the soc.motss cabal to aid and abet YOU in your efforts to silence me. When one complains, one demands that something be done to change the reason for the complaint. YOU sir, are complaining about the content of my messages. Here is the evidence, edited, of course to X out some details: -----------------------------------snip--------------------------------- >From soc.motss Wed Jun 28 13:07:00 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!news.kei.com!sundog.tiac.net!usenet From: Bob Donahue Newsgroups: soc.motss Subject: Re: Fred Cherry: a hateful subhuman Date: 27 Jun 1995 03:05:16 GMT Organization: Skepsis Research and Development Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3snshc$q37@sundog.tiac.net> References: <3rhtb1$sst@panix.com> <3rq835$g1s@news.next.com> <3sn1sa$4mt@interport.net> <3snhgb$1fb@africa.lm.com> <3sno42$pkf@interport.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: omphalos.skepsis.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (X11; I; BSD/386 1.1 i386) X-URL: news:3sno42$pkf@interport.net john1@interport.net (Fred Cherry) wrote: >Why don't you homos ... >And furthermore, you homos ... >When it comes to complaining, you homos ... >B. Why do homos ... that number folks, is postmaster@interport.net ... Granted, it's not a fruit basket, but it seems that Fred's trying really hard to see how much he can "get away with" his new ISP. People local to NYC, might want to call XXXXXXXXXXXX at 212 XXX XXXX. BBC, cabal secretary... .. waterer of the pod ------------------------------snip--------------------------------- ************************************************************************* Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves. - Lincoln john1@interport.net, a.k.a. themadmailer@bix.com >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:14 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!tezcat.com!tezcat.com!not-for-mail From: alan@tezcat.com (Alan Schmidt) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 5 Jul 1995 10:54:20 -0500 Organization: Buddies' Softball Lines: 13 Message-ID: <3tecjc$mv0@huitzilo.tezcat.com> References: <3t9336$kaa@panix2.panix.com> <3tb4vr$enl@panix2.panix.com> <3td0ks$bv@news2.ucsd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: huitzilo.tezcat.com Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306848 alt.censorship:56245 Felix Lee typed: >Brian Kantor: >> Is the only solution to invent a new and totally incompatable news >> system and start over? > >yep. (anyone want to fund me for a year so I can develop it? :) Selfish. I want in on the action, too. Since I'm in IL and you're in PA, we'll need ISDN lines wired to our houses so we can teleconference. All at taxpayers expense, hopefully. _______________________________________ Alan Schmidthttp://www.tezcat.com/~alan >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:15 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!sundog.tiac.net!omphalos.skepsis.com!donahue From: donahue@omphalos.skepsis.com (Bob Donahue) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Followup-To: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Date: 5 Jul 1995 19:18:42 GMT Organization: Skepsis Research and Development Lines: 47 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3teoii$4j8@sundog.tiac.net> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t7ptm$j20@sundog.tiac.net> <3te8hi$l0k@interport.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: omphalos.skepsis.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306896 alt.censorship:56270 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32157 comp.org.eff.talk:57526 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6509 Fred Cherry (john1@interport.net) wrote: : >>Bob Donohue's call to restrain Cherry's access also tends to : >>discredit the decades-long struggle to gain civil rights for : >>homosexuals. : > : > I made no such call. I called on people to : >register their complaints (or is that not allowed in your : >universe) for newsgroup abuse. : Are you serious? YOU, sir, called upon the soc.motss cabal to aid and abet : YOU in your efforts to silence me. When one complains, one demands that : something be done to change the reason for the complaint. YOU sir, are : complaining about the content of my messages. Here is the evidence, edited, : of course to X out some details: And of course you're lying. In the text that you quoted, I at no time said that you should not be permitted access to USENET. I wholeheartedly support you, your views, and your postings int he appropriate forums. *.motss is not among them. Alt.politics.homosexuality is. That why it was created BTW, to MAKE SURE that everyone's views on gay-related topics had a safe place to be aired. The *.motss groups were designed to be safe spaces free from homophobia. On the other hand, a.p.h was created so that people who disagree with any aspect of non-heterosexuality could freely state their views without fear of retribution. Were you to get into trouble for posting something to a.p.h, I would definitely side with your complaint. On the other hand, I insist that the charter of the *.motss groups be respected. IF you will not abide by the rules set up 10+ years ago, I *Will* complain. Not to have you lose your account, but that you comply with the rules. IF that means you post to a.p.h and not to *.motss, I think that's a reasonable compromise, one that everyone can live with. Give it a try - you'll be surprised at how much it will work. Unless of course what you *want* is to stir up trouble - in which case you'll probably have to find new accounts time and time again because places won't want to do business with you. But don't blame *me* for that. >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:15 1995 Path: news.interport.net!interport!not-for-mail From: john1@interport.net (Fred Cherry) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 5 Jul 1995 15:27:49 -0400 Organization: Johns & Call Girls United Against Repression Lines: 589 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tep3l$olu@interport.net> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t8skr$31p@interport.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: interport.net X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #4 (NOV) Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306894 alt.censorship:56269 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32155 comp.org.eff.talk:57524 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6508 In Message-ID: Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 16:26:25 GMT rsdonley@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Roger Donley) wrote: >[about not being defended by the A.C.L.U. when other unpopular figures were] > > I wonder what you were charged with, Fred. I don't have access to a >law library here, but will look up your case ASAP. I wasn't charged with anything. My monster postcards were charged with violating 18 U.S.C. 1718, and, at the conclusion of an administrative proceeding, they were sentenced to be burned in a fiery furnace. I had to bring an action in federal court in an attempt to save those cards. I lost the case. Here is a transcript of material that was previously posted: -----------------------------snip------------------------------------ >From misc.legal.moderated Tue Oct 18 00:38:10 1994 Path: panix!not-for-mail From: john1@panix.com (Fred Cherry) Newsgroups: misc.legal.moderated Subject: Re: Public school dress code. (Request for comments.) Date: 17 Oct 1994 14:27:50 -0400 Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC Lines: 38 Sender: eck@panix.com Approved: "eck@panix.com (Mark Eckenwiler)" Message-ID: <37ufn6$bqm@panix.com> References: <373hmo$rfq@panix.com> <37cel9$1u5@panix.com> <37fd19$q6v@panix.com> <37h7sr$dev@panix.com> <37h9mn$m6c@panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix.com In Message-ID: <37h9mn$m6c@panix.com> Newsgroups: misc.legal.moderated Subject: Re: Public school dress code. (Request for comments.) Date: 12 Oct 1994 14:25:27 -0400 eck@panix.com (Mark Eckenwiler) wrote: >If the state of NY passed a law prohibiting the publication of >newspapers on Monday, I suppose one could argue that there are still 6 >days left in the week to publish, but that won't save such a law. As >the Supreme Court has noted repeatedly, the existence of alternative >avenues of expression is not a justification for infringing protected >expression. >See Texas v. Johnson, 491 US 397, 416 n.11 (1989); Spence v. >Washington, 418 US 405, 411 n.4 (1974) (alternative-means-of- >expression argument "rejected summarily"); Schneider v. State, 308 US >147, 163 (1939). As far as I am concerned, the United States Constitution isn't worth the sand it is written in. In Cherry v. Postmaster General, 272 F. Supp. 982 (1967). that argument was specifically approved by the district court and by the Court of Appeals for the First Circus. When I say the argument was specifically approved by the Court of Appeals for the First Circus, I mean that at the end of oral argument, the three judges put their heads together for a moment, and then the Chief Judge, Baily Aldrich, announced from the bench that the appeal was so frivolous that it was unnecessary to write an opinion. The Supreme Court denied certiorari. The statute involved, 18 U.S.C. 1718, made it a crime to send a postcard with criticism of an identifiable person, EVEN IF THE CRITICISM WAS TRUE AND EVEN IF THE PERSON CRITICIZED WAS A PUBLIC FIGURE. That statute was repealed on 11/29/90, but since the Supreme Court never ruled on that statute, it can always be re- enacted into law. john1@panix.com, a.k.a. themadmailer@bix.com >From misc.legal.moderated Thu Oct 20 08:17:27 1994 Path: panix!oregon.uoregon.edu!DREITMAN From: dreitman@oregon.uoregon.edu (daniel r. reitman, attorney to be) Newsgroups: misc.legal.moderated Subject: Re: Public school dress code. (Request for comments.) Date: 18 Oct 1994 09:49:33 -0400 Organization: University of Oregon, Eugene, Oregon Lines: 28 Sender: eck@panix.com Approved: "eck@panix.com (Mark Eckenwiler)" Message-ID: <380jpd$mtd@panix.com> References: <373hmo$rfq@panix.com> <37cel9$1u5@panix.com> <37fd19$q6v@panix.com> <37h7sr$dev@panix.com> <37h9mn$m6c@panix.com>,<37ufn6$bqm@panix.com> Reply-To: dreitman@oregon.uoregon.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: panix.com In article <37ufn6$bqm@panix.com>, john1@panix.com (Fred Cherry) writes: >In Cherry v. Postmaster General, 272 F. Supp. 982 (1967). that argument was >specifically approved by the district court and by the Court of Appeals for >the First Circus. When I say the argument was specifically approved by the >Court of Appeals for the First Circus, I mean that at the end of oral >argument, the three judges put their heads together for a moment, and then the >Chief Judge, Baily Aldrich, announced from the bench that the appeal was so >frivolous that it was unnecessary to write an opinion. The Supreme Court >denied certiorari. The statute involved, 18 U.S.C. 1718, made it a crime to >send a postcard with criticism of an identifiable person, EVEN IF THE >CRITICISM WAS TRUE AND EVEN IF THE PERSON CRITICIZED WAS A PUBLIC FIGURE. That >statute was repealed on 11/29/90, but since the Supreme Court never ruled on >that statute, it can always be reenacted into law. [Emphasis original.] Something sounds very wrong with this analysis. Can we get a followup on the Cherry opinion and the statute, please? Daniel Reitman "In purely practical terms, it is obviously easier for action to be taken by one House without submission to the President; but it is crystal clear from the records of the Convention, contemporaneous writings and debates, that the Framers ranked other values higher than efficiency." INS v. Chadha, 462 U.S. 919, 958-59 (1983). Query: Might this be an appropriate slogan for the Net? >From misc.legal.moderated Thu Oct 20 08:17:27 1994 Path: panix!max.tiac.net!lkk From: lkk@max.tiac.net (Larry Kolodney) Newsgroups: misc.legal.moderated Subject: Re: Public school dress code. (Request for comments.) Date: 19 Oct 1994 11:23:15 -0400 Organization: The Devil's Advocate Lines: 195 Sender: eck@panix.com Approved: "eck@panix.com (Mark Eckenwiler)" Message-ID: <383dl3$3va@panix.com> References: <373hmo$rfq@panix.com> <37cel9$1u5@panix.com> <37fd19$q6v@panix.com> <37h7sr$dev@panix.com> <37h9mn$m6c@panix.com>,<37ufn6$bqm@panix.com> <380jpd$mtd@panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix.com dreitman@oregon.uoregon.edu (daniel r. reitman, attorney to be) writes: >In article <37ufn6$bqm@panix.com>, john1@panix.com (Fred Cherry) writes: >>In Cherry v. Postmaster General, 272 F. Supp. 982 (1967). that argument was >>specifically approved by the district court and by the Court of Appeals for >>the First Circus. When I say the argument was specifically approved by the >>Court of Appeals for the First Circus, I mean that at the end of oral >>argument, the three judges put their heads together for a moment, and then the >>Chief Judge, Baily Aldrich, announced from the bench that the appeal was so >>frivolous that it was unnecessary to write an opinion. The Supreme Court >>denied certiorari. The statute involved, 18 U.S.C. 1718, made it a crime to >>send a postcard with criticism of an identifiable person, EVEN IF THE >>CRITICISM WAS TRUE AND EVEN IF THE PERSON CRITICIZED WAS A PUBLIC FIGURE. That >>statute was repealed on 11/29/90, but since the Supreme Court never ruled on >>that statute, it can always be reenacted into law. [Emphasis original.] >Something sounds very wrong with this analysis. Can we get a followup on the >Cherry opinion and the statute, please? Here's a lightly edited version of the district court's opinion: [Notice the date. Under modern public forum analysis, isn't the holding implicit here that the exterior of envelopes carried by the postal service are not a public forum?] Fred CHERRY v. The POSTMASTER GENERAL of the United States, the Postmaster of San Juan, P.R., the Postmaster of Brooklyn, N.Y., and the Postmaster of New York, N.Y., Julius C. Tortorice, Intervenor CHERRY v. POSTMASTER GEN. of the United States Civ. No. 575-66 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF PUERTO RICO 272 F. Supp. 982 August 7, 1967 COUNSEL: Fred Cherry, pro se. Asst. U.S. Atty. Candita R. Orlandi, San Juan, Puerto Rico, for defendant. JUDGES: Cancio, Chief Judge. ... The issue involved in this case is essentially one relating to the First and Fifth Amendments to the United States Constitution. Plaintiff alleges that his rights of free speech and to property have been abridged by the Postmaster General of the United States in that the latter has refused to deliver, and has threatened to destroy, certain postcards mailed by him. The intervenor alleges that his right to receive through the mail the postcards originally mailed by the plaintiff in this case has been infringed. On these grounds, plaintiff demands: (1) the calling of a three judge United States District Court to pass on the constitutionality of 18 U.S.C. @ 1718 and 39 U.S.C. @ 4001; (2) that this Court issue a temporary restraining order and a preliminary injunction against the Postmaster General of the United States to prevent him from destroying the postcards in question; and (3) several other petitions directed to the three judge District Court in case it were convened. Section 1718 of the United States Code, Title 18, reads as follows: All matter otherwise mailable by law, upon the envelope or outside cover or wrapper of which, or any postal card upon which is written or printed or otherwise impressed or apparent any delineation, epithet, term or language of libelous, scurrilous, defamatory or threatening character, or calculated by the terms or manner or style of display and obviously intended to reflect injuriously upon the character or conduct of another, is non-mailable matter, and shall not be conveyed in the mails nor delivered from any post office nor by any letter carrier, and shall be withdrawn from the mails under such regulations as the Postmaster General shall prescribe. Plaintiff has mailed at several post offices a number of postcards containing certain statements pertaining to the person and morality of a certain clergyman. These postcards state, among other things, that this man of the cloth: 1. Is one of the foremost leaders of the organized homosexual movement in America. 2. Has written a book insinuating that Jesus Christ was a homosexual. 3. As a member of the organized homosexual movement in America, has as his ultimate aim to bring about a pervert world. 4. As a member of that movement, he is engaged in a program to bring about a pervert world which consists of the following steps: (a) Legalize and encourage homosexuality between consenting adults. (b) Outlaw prostitution so that large numbers of young men will be forced to resort to homosexuality. (c) Legalize and encourage Greek love. (d) Outlaw all normal sexual experience between men and women. Regarding these postcards, the Post Office Department, after an administrative hearing, declared that they were nonmailable matter under 18 U.S.C. @ 1718 and ordered that they be destroyed pursuant to 39 U.S.C. @ 4001. Plaintiff does not contend that the Post Office Department erred in classifying the aforementioned postcards as nonmailable under the statute, nor does he deny that said postcards are in fact libelous, defamatory, scurrilous and threatening. It would seem from his brief that, on the contrary, he candidly admits that this is the nature of his postcards. Nevertheless, he insists that these postcards are privileged on the grounds that, independently of their nature, their content is true, has a general political, religious or sociological significance and constitutes a fair comment upon the conduct of persons in respect to public affairs. As such, plaintiff insists that his postcards come under the protection of the First Amendment regarding freedom of speech and freedom of the press. ... Freedom of speech and freedom of the press are secured by the First Amendment against abridgment by the United States to the detriment of the citizens of the United States. The safeguarding of these rights to the ends that men may speak freely on matters vital to them and that falsehoods may be exposed through the processes of education and discussion is essential to a free government. Thornhill v. State of Alabama, 1939, 310 U.S. 88, 60 S. Ct. 736, 84 L. Ed. 1093. But freedom of speech and freedom of the press, as many other rights guaranteed by the Constitution, are not absolute. Where freedoms of this nature are bent into license, the State has the authority and the duty, not only to limit, but also to punish its abuse. Near v. State of Minnesota, 1931, 283 U.S. 697, 51 S. Ct. 625, 75 L. Ed. 1357; Kingsley Books, Inc. v. Brown, 1957, 354 U.S. 436, 77 S. Ct. 1325, 1 L. Ed. 2d 1469. The constitutional protection to freedom of speech and press does not turn upon the truth, popularity or social utility of the ideas and beliefs which are offered. New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, 1964, 376 U.S. 254, 84 S. Ct. 710, 11 L. Ed. 2d 686; N.A.A.C.P. v. Button, 1963, 371 U.S. 415, 83 S. Ct. 328, 9 L. Ed. 2d 405. Hence, it is indifferent whether or not the statements made on these postcards are true or false. The question is whether or not they are protected forms of speech, to the extent that the Government is under the constitutional obligation to lend its facilities to help disseminate statements in the manner sought by plaintiff. It does not seem to be so. To use plaintiff's own words, it does not seem that the speech sought to be protected in these circumstances "is of general political, religious or sociological significance"; nor does it appear, in these same circumstances, to be "a fair comment upon the conduct of persons in respect of public affairs". As the United States Attorney pointedly suggests, the matter printed on plaintiff's postcards is, in fact, otherwise mailable by law. It could have been printed on a piece of paper, enclosed in an envelope and sent through the mails. It still can. It is merely the act of printing this matter on a postcard, with its surface exposed, that renders the cards nonmailable. Plaintiff is not foreclosed from expressing himself. Simply, the manner in which it is done is regulated by law in a very minor form. This does not amount to an abridgment of the First Amendment rights. In sum, it appears to this Court that plaintiff's cause of action is entirely without merit and that it is frivolous and lacking any likelihood of success. It appears to us, too, that 39 U.S.C. @ 4001 and 18 U.S.C.@ 1718 are valid exercises by the Congress of the United States of its power to regulate the mails that the Government created and administers. Plaintiff's postcards, according to the postal authorities, are libelous, scurrilous and defamatory. He has not even tried to challenge this. They contain an attack, warranted or not, upon the person of a readily identifiable clergyman who is therein mentioned by name, position and location. We must consider them as of that nature. The Post Office Department held an administrative hearing and it was after this hearing that the ruling came as to the destruction of plaintiff's postcards. There has been no showing by the plaintiff as to why this Court should hold that his procedure is contrary to the due process of law or any other constitutional or legal right. Plaintiff's rights are fully protected and provided for in this procedure and there is no denial of due process merely because the courts of law do not intervene in the matter in the first instance. Public Clearing House v. Coyne, 1904, 194 U.S. 497, 24 S. Ct. 789, 48 L. Ed. 1092. -- larry kolodney:(lkk@max.tiac.org) _(*#&)#*&%)@(*^%_!*&%^!)*&#+!*&$+!?&%+!*&^_)*&#%)*&^%#+& Free & Common Socage:Knight Service:Gavelkind:Frankalmoign:Burgage >From misc.legal.moderated Mon Oct 24 12:32:10 1994 Path: panix!not-for-mail From: john1@panix.com (Fred Cherry) Newsgroups: misc.legal.moderated Subject: Re: Public school dress code. (Request for comments.) Date: 24 Oct 1994 08:57:20 -0400 Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC Lines: 201 Sender: eck@panix.com Approved: "eck@panix.com (Mark Eckenwiler)" Message-ID: <38gavg$ddv@panix.com> References: <373hmo$rfq@panix.com> <37cel9$1u5@panix.com> <37fd19$q6v@panix.com> <37h7sr$dev@panix.com> <37h9mn$m6c@panix.com>,<37ufn6$bqm@panix.com> <380jpd$mtd@panix.com> <383dl3$3va@panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix.com In Message-ID: <383dl3$3va@panix.com> Newsgroups: misc.legal.moderated Subject: Re: Public school dress code. (Request for comments.) Date: 19 Oct 1994 11:23:15 -0400 lkk@max.tiac.net (Larry Kolodney) wrote: >Here's a lightly edited version of the district court's opinion: >[Notice the date. Under modern public forum analysis, isn't the >holding implicit here that the exterior of envelopes carried by the >postal service are not a public forum?] Before I start commenting on the opinion, I would like to comment on something that is NOT in the opinion. In my complaint, which is reproduced in my petition for certiorari (No. 1293, October term '67), it sez: 9. 18 U.S.C. 1718 is unconstitutional and void on its face and as applied because: (a)............ (b) It violates the due process clause of the Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution in that newspapers may be sent through the mails, without wrappers, with information exposed on their surface similar to the information contained in plaintiff's post cards. (_U.S. v. Higgins_ 194 F. 541). The withholding from delivery of plaintiff's post cards constitutes a _discriminatory_ prior restraint. Let me now quote from page 15 of my petition for certiorari. On that page it sez: The respondents may argue, as they have argued previously, that the Post Office Department has the power to censor the truth involving matters of general public concern appearing on the outside surface of newspapers and magazines, but they have _not_ argued, nor can they argue, that they have actually _exercised_ this power in modern times. If their claim were really valid, then the least they ought to do now is to cite a few cases in which magazines of newspapers were denied mailing privileges for the "crime" of revealing the truth involving matters of general concern, merely because said truth reflected injuriously upon the character or conduct of public figures. The petitioners have insisted, and continue to insist, that they can _prove_ that magazines and newspapers are presently being sent through the mails, without wrappers, with scurrility and defamation exposed on their exterior surfaces. The fact is that in the case of _Lamont v. Postmaster General_, 381 U.S. 301, the Communist Party of China won the right to send magazines containing defamatory attacks on public figures by unsealed mail. It should be noted that the Communist Party of China previously enjoyed the right to send magazines containing defamatory attacks on public figures by sealed mail. When it is also considered that the decision of _United States v. Higgins, supra,_ 194 Fed. 539, permits these same magazines to be sent through the mails without a wrapper, we see that the Communist party of China enjoys a greater degree of freedom of the press in our _own_ nation than an American citizen..... Now, I will comment on the opinion itself. >The intervenor alleges that his right to receive through the mail the >postcards originally mailed by the plaintiff in this case has been >infringed. It may seem silly to have an intervenor in this case, but here is the reason he is in the case. The defendant argued that my case is distinguishable from the Lamont case because the Lamont case invoked the right to receive mail, while my case involved the right to send mail. So, I figured that if they want to play such ridiculous games, I'll go along with them. > Plaintiff does not contend that the Post Office Department erred in >classifying the aforementioned postcards as nonmailable under the >statute, nor does he deny that said postcards are in fact libelous, >defamatory, scurrilous and threatening. It would seem from his brief >that, on the contrary, he candidly admits that this is the nature of >his postcards. Once again, I am going to quote from my petition for certiorari, page 9, where it sez: In addition, all of the briefs before the lower courts have been made part of the record before _this_ court and therefore the Respondents can _still_ answer this argument by pointing out, _if they can_, (1) Where in any brief or other paper, the Petitioners admit that the post cards are libelous or threatening; (2) Where, in any brief or other paper before the District Court, the Respondents have even _accused_ the post cards in question of being either libelous or threatening. The Respondents, in their Appellate brief, were unable to answer these questions. All they could say was: "18 U.S.C. 875 and 876, cited by appellants (Brief, p. 15), merely punish the use of interstate commerce of the mails for the purposes of extortion." (See footnote at page 15 of Respondents Appellate brief.) The fact is that the District Court has done more than merely making a finding without a scrap of evidence to support it. Actually, what the District Court has done, and the Court of Appeals has sanctioned, was _sua sponte_, to manufacture evidence out of thin air in order to support its decision. >But freedom of speech and freedom of the press, as many other rights >guaranteed by the Constitution, are not absolute. Where freedoms of >this nature are bent into license, the State has the authority and the >duty, not only to limit, but also to punish its abuse. Near v. State >of Minnesota, 1931, 283 U.S. 697, 51 S. Ct. 625, 75 L. Ed. 1357; >Kingsley Books, Inc. v. Brown, 1957, 354 U.S. 436, 77 S. Ct. 1325, 1 >L. Ed. 2d 1469. In refutation of that argument, I should have cited something out of _Garrison v. Louisiana_, 379 U.S. 64, 86. I hate to admit this, but I guess I will have to. I am not perfect. Here is what I should have cited, but I didn't. This is from the Appendix to the Opinion of (in)Justice Douglas, concurring, which consists of an Excerpt fro Madison's Address, January 23, 1799. It appears at 379 U.S. at 86. It sez: " The distinction between liberty and licentiousness is still a repetition of the Protean doctrine of implication, which is ever ready to work its ends by varying its shape. By its help, the judge as to what is licentious many escape through any constitutional restriction. Under it men of a particular religious opinion might be excluded from office, because such exclusion would not amount to an establishment of religion, and because it might be said that their opinions are licentious. And under it, Congers might denominate a religion to be heretical and licentious, and proceed to its suppression........." There is something else in the quoted passage that I would like you to consider. The first cited case, _Near v. Minnesota_ had a decision AGAINST censorship. I once read an interesting book about that case titled: MINNESOTA RAG. I forgot the name of the author. The second cited case, _Kingsley Books v. Brown_ was an obscenity case. I maintain that the censorship of obscenity leads inevitably to the censorship of political speech, and my case is a perfect example of this. Another example is when Lenny Bruce was arrested and convicted of obscenity. The real reason that Bruce was convicted was that he was mocking the Catholic Church and homosexuals. >The constitutional protection to freedom of speech and press does not turn >upon the truth, popularity or social utility of the ideas and beliefs >which are offered. New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, 1964, 376 U.S. 254, 84 >S. Ct. 710, 11 L. Ed. 2d 686; N.A.A.C.P. v. Button, 1963, 371 U.S. 415, >83 S. Ct. 328, 9 L. Ed. 2d 405. Hence, it is indifferent whether or not >the statements made on these postcards are true or false. That turns _Sullivan_ on its head. _Sullivan_ held that honest error is protected by the First Amendment. My case uses _Sullivan_ for the proposition that telling the truth is a crime. Did anyone ever see anything like that anywhere else? >Plaintiff is not foreclosed from expressing himself. Simply, the manner >in which it is done is regulated by law in a very minor form. This does >not amount to an abridgment of the First Amendment rights. Notice the word "very." Let me explain that. The defendant had argued that the censorship in my case was minor. So, I cited a concurring opinion in _Lamont v. Postmaster General_, 381 U.S. 301 which held that even a minor abridgment of the First Amendment was unconstitutional. So. in order to distinguish my case from _Lamont_ the judge found that the abridgment in my case was "very minor." I suppose that if I had found a case in which a "very minor" abridgment of the First Amendment had been found to be unconstitutional, the judge in my case would have said that the abridgment in my case was "very very minor." >The Post Office Department held an administrative hearing and it was >after this hearing that the ruling came as to the destruction of >plaintiff's postcards. There has been no showing by the plaintiff as >to why this Court should hold that his procedure is contrary to the >due process of law or any other constitutional or legal right. >Plaintiff's rights are fully protected and provided for in this >procedure and there is no denial of due process merely because the >courts of law do not intervene in the matter in the first instance. >Public Clearing House v. Coyne, 1904, 194 U.S. 497, 24 S. Ct. 789, 48 >L. Ed. 1092. Once again I will quote from my petition for certiorari. On page 17, addressing this particular point, it sez: In a concurring opinion in _Manual Enterprises v. Day_, 370 U.S. 478, 497-499 (particularly footnote No. 4 at page 498), Justice Brennan clearly and specifically held that a claim that administrative censorship by the Post Office Department violates the constitution, is a claim for a three-judge court. In _Freedman v. Maryland_, 380 U.S. 51, 61-62, (in)Justice Douglas and Black, in a footnote to a concurring opinion, held that: "The Court today holds that a system of movie censorship must contain at least three procedural safeguards if it is not to run afoul of the First Amendment. (1) the censor must have the burden of instituting judicial proceedings; (2) any restraint prior to judicial review can be imposed only briefly in order to preserve the status quo; amd (3) a prompt judicial determination of obscenity must be assured." So, to sum up this long, dreary dissertation, I say unto you once again that the constitution isn't worth the sand it's written on. john1@panix.com, a.k.a. themadmailer@bix.com -------------------------------snip------------------------------- >I always wonder though, >when people start knocking the ACLU because it defends right-wing idiots (or >left wing idiots) but not their case. The ACLU takes cases depending on a >lot of factors, including what will make a good test case and how widespread >is the problem to be addressed (and how much press will it get if, like the >Skokie Nazis, the speech is suppressed. Well, not really "how much press", >but "how negative an impact" will it have.) I used to be a member of the ACLU. The ACLU specifically claims that it takes EVERY case involving the First Amendment. I based my case on the _Lamont_ case, which I mentioned above. Then, in '74, 18 U.S.C. 1718 was held to be unconstitutional by the Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circus. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circus based its opinion on the _Lamont_ case. See _Tollett v. United States_, 485 F. 2d. 1087. The government never appealed that case. Therefore, 18 U.S.C. 1718 was unconstitutional in the Eighth Circus, and constitutional everywhere else in the United States. You want to know how widespread the problem to be addressed was. I certainly tried to find out that very question. There were THREE times I sued the government for seizing my monster postcards The third time was in '76. The government had seized monster postcards of mine in '74. I tried to invoke the Freedom of Information Act to find out how many cases there were of seizures under 18 U.S.C. 1718 there had been. The government just kept stonewalling (if you'll pardon the expression) me. Anyway, in '76 I got stuck with Judge Costantino, whom Jack Newfield, writer for the VILLAGE VOICE, described as the worst federal judge east of the Mississippi. In oral argument before Judge Costantino I cited the case of Southeastern Promotions v. Conrad, 420 U.S. 546. When I cited the case, Costantino turned to one of his law clerks in court and asked: "Did you ever hear of that case?" The law clerk replied in the negative. Costantino then asked the same question to his other law clerk. Same result. Costantino then announced: "There's no such case." So then everyone in the courtroom started laughing at my being humiliated in that manner. That's only one of the ways justice is dispensed with in the courts of the United States. ************************************************************************* Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves. - Lincoln john1@interport.net, a.k.a. themadmailer@bix.com >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:15 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sal!kadie From: kadie@sal.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M Kadie) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 5 Jul 1995 22:39:10 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 69 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tf4ae$122@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t7ptm$j20@sundog.tiac.net> <3te8hi$l0k@interport.net> <3teoii$4j8@sundog.tiac.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: sal.cs.uiuc.edu Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306940 alt.censorship:56300 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32160 comp.org.eff.talk:57533 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6524 donahue@omphalos.skepsis.com (Bob Donahue) writes: >On the other hand, I insist that the charter of the *.motss groups be >respected. I hate viewpoint discrimination in the charters of unmoderated newsgroups. I personally think that if I can say "X" in an unmoderated forum, then someone use should be able to say "Not X". Viewpoint discrimation is hard to enforce. It is likely illegal for sites that are bound by the U.S. First Amendment (such as state universities) to enforce viewpoint discrimation in unmoderated newsgroups. If you want to enforce discrimation based on viewpoint (or sex, race, sexual identity, etc.), do it yourself via moderation. Don't ask or expect ten thousands sites to do moderate to your standards for you. - Carl ANNOTATED REFERENCES (All these documents are available on-line. Access information follows.) ================= law/rosenberger_v_u_virginia ================= * Expression -- Public Forum -- Rosenberger v. U. of Virginia A 1995 U.S. Supreme Court decision that says that it is illegal for a state univeristy to deny funds to a student newspaper on the grounds that the newspaper is religious. The decision confirms that the government cannot discriminate on the basis of viewpoint in limited public forums. ================= law/san-diego-committee-v-gov-bd ================= * Expression -- Public Forum -- Overview -- San Diego Committee v. Gov Bd Excerpts from San Diego Committee v. Governing Bd., 790 F.2d 1471. A decision by an appellate court that applied the Supreme Court's Public Forum Doctrine (to a school newspaper). ================= ================= If you have gopher, you can browse the CAF archive with the command gopher gopher.eff.org These document(s) are also available by anonymous ftp (the preferred method) and by email. To get the file(s) via ftp, do an anonymous ftp to ftp.eff.org (192.77.172.4), and then: cd /pub/CAF/law get rosenberger_v_u_virginia cd /pub/CAF/law get san-diego-committee-v-gov-bd To get the file(s) by email, send email to ftpmail@decwrl.dec.com Include the line(s): connect ftp.eff.org cd /pub/CAF/law get rosenberger_v_u_virginia cd /pub/CAF/law get san-diego-committee-v-gov-bd -- Carl Kadie -- I do not represent any organization or employer; this is just me. = Email: kadie@cs.uiuc.edu = = URL: >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 5 21:48:15 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!chaos.dac.neu.edu!lynx.dac.neu.edu!tfarrell From: tfarrell@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Thomas Farrell) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Followup-To: soc.motss,alt.censorship Date: 6 Jul 1995 00:43:30 GMT Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA Lines: 14 Message-ID: <3tfbji$6r4@chaos.dac.neu.edu> References: <3t9336$kaa@panix2.panix.com> <3t96ro$qug@netaxs.com> <3tb4vr$enl@panix2.panix.com> <3td0ks$bv@news2.ucsd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: lynx.dac.neu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306982 alt.censorship:56324 Brian Kantor (brian@nothing.ucsd.edu) wrote: : Is the only solution to invent a new and totally incompatable news : system and start over? Oh, I've been thinking about that. It would have to be truly arcane and have an utterly hideous interface. Or perhaps something akin to "rn." High user surliness level. And run exclusively under UNIX, and somehow require that you have to know how to use the OS to make it run. : "what have they done with my network!!?!?" America Online. Tom >From soc.motss Thu Jul 6 15:48:13 1995 Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.dorsai.org!flixman From: flixman@news.dorsai.org (Robt_Martin) Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Message-ID: Followup-To: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Sender: news@dorsai.org (Keeper of the News) Organization: The Dorsai Embassy - New York X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t7ptm$j20@sundog.tiac.net> <3te8hi$l0k@interport.net> Distribution: inet Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 00:49:29 GMT Lines: 60 Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306991 alt.censorship:56326 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32162 comp.org.eff.talk:57546 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6535 Fred Cherry (john1@interport.net) wrote: : ALL of the groups I crosspost to are appropriate forums for my messages. : The k12 newsgroups would NOT be appropriate. Here is the list I have been : using lately: : Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.homosexual,alt.politics.homosexuality, : alt.sex,alt.sex.services,alt.sex.brothels,soc.men,soc,women, you might want to edit this ^ (will soc.women forgive me?) : alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.mens-rights,ne.motss,soc.motss, : soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.african.american Looks like a harassment campaign to me, particularly where all the soc.* groups are concerned. : >>Bob Donohue's call to restrain Cherry's access also tends to : >>discredit the decades-long struggle to gain civil rights for : >>homosexuals. : > : > I made no such call. I called on people to : >register their complaints (or is that not allowed in your : >universe) for newsgroup abuse. : Are you serious? YOU, sir, called upon the soc.motss cabal to aid and abet : YOU in your efforts to silence me. When one complains, one demands that : something be done to change the reason for the complaint. YOU sir, are : complaining about the content of my messages. Here is the evidence, edited, : of course to X out some details: : john1@interport.net (Fred Cherry) wrote: : >Why don't you homos ... : >And furthermore, you homos ... : >When it comes to complaining, you homos ... : >B. Why do homos ... : that number folks, is postmaster@interport.net ... Granted, : it's not a fruit basket, but it seems that Fred's trying really hard : to see how much he can "get away with" his new ISP. : People local to NYC, might want to call XXXXXXXXXXXX at : 212 XXX XXXX. A reasonable reaction to a harassment campaign; let the site administrators know what is going on at their own site. No number of complaints can force interport or panix to withdraw service from *anyone*. When a site discovers abuse of their resources, they, quite naturally, take the steps they deem appropriate. If they didn't, there wouldn't be much 'net left by now. It just so happens that Cherry's site administraters saw fit to boot his sorry butt. >From soc.motss Thu Jul 6 15:48:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!sundog.tiac.net!omphalos.skepsis.com!donahue From: donahue@omphalos.skepsis.com (Bob Donahue) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Followup-To: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Date: 6 Jul 1995 01:25:18 GMT Organization: Skepsis Research and Development Lines: 47 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tfe1u$j4q@sundog.tiac.net> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t7ptm$j20@sundog.tiac.net> <3te8hi$l0k@interport.net> <3teoii$4j8@sundog.tiac.net> <3tf4ae$122@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: omphalos.skepsis.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:306992 alt.censorship:56327 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32163 comp.org.eff.talk:57547 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6537 Carl M Kadie (kadie@sal.cs.uiuc.edu) wrote: : donahue@omphalos.skepsis.com (Bob Donahue) writes: : >On the other hand, I insist that the charter of the *.motss groups be : >respected. : I hate viewpoint discrimination in the charters of unmoderated : newsgroups. I personally think that if I can say "X" in an unmoderated : forum, then someone use should be able to say "Not X". Viewpoint : discrimation is hard to enforce. It is likely illegal for sites that : are bound by the U.S. First Amendment (such as state universities) to : enforce viewpoint discrimation in unmoderated newsgroups. So, that also means that every course they offer has to permit "not X" lecturers? I don't think so. : If you want to enforce discrimation based on viewpoint (or sex, race, : sexual identity, etc.), do it yourself via moderation. Don't ask or : expect ten thousands sites to do moderate to your standards for you. That's unnecessary micromanaging. This also means that all the non-moderated religious newsgroups should be permitted to have "not X" postings there too? By this token, why not eliminate all newsgroups and just have one BIG one called "news". Since most topics are multifacted, it'd eliminate the problems of what's germaine once and for all. No - it's vital to have designated places where "not X" positions can be aired. It is NOT vital that they be aired in the exact same places. The resultant cacaphony (which many would argue already exists) would render things useless before long. The very act of creating different newsgroups implies that the newsgroup itself is distinct. In the case of *.motss the distinction is that it's a pro-GBLO* zone. Not that I'm against moderation, but I think that the method of creating newsgroups (and net.motss was I think the first big test case of creating a controversial newsgroup) works quite well. There exists open spaces for pro-GBLO* people, and for non-pro-GBLO* people. That should be good enough for most people. >From soc.motss Thu Jul 6 15:48:13 1995 Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!malgudi.oar.net!utnetw.utoledo.edu!lab1.newton.utoledo.edu!gsmith From: Gene Ward Smith Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship In-Reply-To: <3tfe1u$j4q@sundog.tiac.net> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Sender: news@utnetw.utoledo.edu (News Manager) Organization: University of Toledo References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t7ptm$j20@sundog.tiac.net> <3te8hi$l0k@interport.net> <3teoii$4j8@sundog.tiac.net> <3tf4ae$122@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tfe1u$j4q@sundog.tiac.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 04:00:51 GMT Lines: 22 Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307041 alt.censorship:56353 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32165 comp.org.eff.talk:57562 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6561 On 6 Jul 1995, Bob Donahue wrote: > Carl M Kadie (kadie@sal.cs.uiuc.edu) wrote: > : donahue@omphalos.skepsis.com (Bob Donahue) writes: > : I hate viewpoint discrimination in the charters of unmoderated > : newsgroups. > : If you want to enforce discrimation based on viewpoint (or sex, race, > : sexual identity, etc.), do it yourself via moderation. Don't ask or > : expect ten thousands sites to do moderate to your standards for you. > This also means that all the non-moderated religious > newsgroups should be permitted to have "not X" postings there > too? I think Carl is on to something. I think we should move all the homophobic crap on soc.motss to comp.org.eff.talk, by changing the follow-up lines. If it's crap, dump it on Carl. -- Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/University of Toledo gsmith@newton.utoledo.edu >From soc.motss Thu Jul 6 15:48:13 1995 Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!noc.netcom.net!netcom.com!reaser From: reaser@netcom.com (Mike Reaser) Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Message-ID: <3tfng9$ab8_002@netcom.com> Sender: reaser@netcom20.netcom.com Organization: Kudzu-R-Us, Atlanta, GA, USA X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #3 References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t7ptm$j20@sundog.tiac.net> <3te8hi$l0k@interport.net> <3teoii$4j8@sundog.tiac.net> <3tf4ae$122@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tfe1u$j4q@sundog.tiac.net> Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 04:06:33 GMT Lines: 29 Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307032 alt.censorship:56346 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32164 comp.org.eff.talk:57554 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6553 In article <3tfe1u$j4q@sundog.tiac.net>, donahue@omphalos.skepsis.com (Bob Donahue) wrote: >Carl M Kadie (kadie@sal.cs.uiuc.edu) wrote: >: If you want to enforce discrimation based on viewpoint (or sex, race, >: sexual identity, etc.), do it yourself via moderation. Don't ask or >: expect ten thousands sites to do moderate to your standards for you. > >That's unnecessary micromanaging. > >This also means that all the non-moderated religious >newsgroups should be permitted to have "not X" postings there >too? *Of* *course*. Regardless of the stated reasons for the creation of said newsgroups. [ ..snip.. ] >There exists open spaces for pro-GBLO* people, and >for non-pro-GBLO* people. That should be good enough for >most people. Except Carl Kadie, who apparently values a "good fight" over the concept of "safe space on the net for people". -- Mike Reaser, Atl., GA B5/6 f+tw+cdvg+k+vs+l+ aka HickBear on IRC reaser@netcom.com mhr@spdcc.com mhr@photobooks.atdc.gatech.edu "Ignorance is as much as a method of computer security as Hope is a method of birth control." -- Lynne Joynes, Kathy Ward >From soc.motss Thu Jul 6 15:48:13 1995 Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!quads!rsdonley From: rsdonley@quads.uchicago.edu (Roger Donley) Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship X-Nntp-Posting-Host: midway.uchicago.edu Message-ID: Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) Reply-To: rsdonley@midway.uchicago.edu Organization: The University of Chicago References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3t8skr$31p@interport.net> <3tep3l$olu@interport.net> Distribution: inet Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 06:10:55 GMT Lines: 32 Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307047 alt.censorship:56355 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32167 comp.org.eff.talk:57568 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6567 [much text on Cherry v. Postmaster deleted] I appreciate the repost. If the admissions that the "monster postcards" (does this mean "big"?) were libelous and defamatory and threatening are true, then of course there is no First Amendment violation (the First Amendment does not give anyone the right to libel (write untruths about) anyone). But, now I've got two more questions. Did you really refer to Douglas as "(in)Justice" in your petition for certiorari? I doubt it, but the quoted material makes it difficult to tell. Showing disrespect for the Court while seeking its assistance sounds like a good way to screw up your case. What is your source for the claim that the ACLU says they take EVERY First Amendment case? I've NEVER heard any ACLU person say that, nor have I read it in any of their literature. It seems preposterous that they would promise to take EVERY case, when it violates an attorney's legal ethical duties to take a case which she knows to be frivolous and which she does not have a good faith argument for the extension or reversal of existing law. Where did you get the idea that the Constittution was written on sand? You seem very bitter towards a lot of things. I hope I don't end up that way. (It reminds me, today a woman went crazy in the parking lot and gave me the finger. She was standing there waving her arms and giving me weird eye signals. It turned out she was too fat to get into the car and was waiting for some guy to pull out so she could get in. When I pulled forward to see if there was a spot next to this truck, it made her ride have to wait 10 seconds longer and she went berzerk. I rolled down my window and told her, "I couldn't understand what you were pointing at. It's nothing to get upset over." She was furious and yelled "Oh fuck you." I said, "Okay, lady" and rolled up my window. I wondered if she's always so angry with free-floating hostility towards everybody, or if today was just "special". She seemed a very unhappy woman. --Rog >From soc.motss Thu Jul 6 15:48:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx10.cs.du.edu!not-for-mail From: anon2c9e@nyx10.cs.du.edu (henry) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 6 Jul 1995 00:18:25 -0600 Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci. Lines: 88 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tfv7h$fvt@nyx10.cs.du.edu> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tf4ae$122@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tfe1u$j4q@sundog.tiac.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: nyx10.cs.du.edu Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307051 alt.censorship:56356 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32168 comp.org.eff.talk:57569 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6568 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- [first off, and i'm not directing this to gene, i must take vigorous exception to the overwhelming tendency of the net community to misuse the word 'censorship' egregiously. considering how tenuous net access can be at times, but still how abundant and easily available, getting someone kicked off the net is not 'censorship.' it's more of a minor inconvenience, and generates favorable publicity for you if you kick up enough of a fuss about it. i think it's generally a bad idea, though on three occasions in my eight years on the net i've been so immediately infuriated by something revolting that i've gotten the fucker yanked. once it was james whitehead at psu, who i am proud to say i got yanked a half hour after his last message pissed me off. i forget the other two. worms, both of them. i really tend not to think of getting someone's account yanked by persuading their sysadmin to yank it as censorship, though it's rather rude. i think of it as the net's most effective way of saying FOAD. it is not an effective tool for communication so much as it is an--admittedly--satisfying way of ending a discussion that has become tiresome.] In article , Gene Ward Smith wrote: >On 6 Jul 1995, Bob Donahue wrote: >> Carl M Kadie (kadie@sal.cs.uiuc.edu) wrote: >> : donahue@omphalos.skepsis.com (Bob Donahue) writes: > >> : I hate viewpoint discrimination in the charters of unmoderated >> : newsgroups. > >> : If you want to enforce discrimation based on viewpoint (or sex, race, >> : sexual identity, etc.), do it yourself via moderation. Don't ask or >> : expect ten thousands sites to do moderate to your standards for you. > >> This also means that all the non-moderated religious >> newsgroups should be permitted to have "not X" postings there >> too? yes. all the non-moderated religious newsgroups DO permit 'not X' postings. have you ever read the mormon newsgroups? how about alt.religion.scientology? whether or not they SHOULD permit them is really completely moot. you can say all you like about the way usenet should be without changing the way it actually is. >I think Carl is on to something. I think we should move all the >homophobic crap on soc.motss to comp.org.eff.talk, by changing the >follow-up lines. If it's crap, dump it on Carl. cherry's a pain in the ass, but christ, at least he's utterly incoherent and tripping all over himself continually and publicly demonstrating what an utter imbecile he is for the edification and amusement of the usenet public. would you really rather zeleny came back? jesus, that crazy son of a bitch had me dragging down books from my bookshelves in a frenzy to find material to counter his lies--cherry can generally be answered in thirty seconds or so with a quick smacking around. > Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/University of Toledo > gsmith@newton.utoledo.edu h horrendously long .sig follows - -- SUPPORT THE DENNIS ERLICH DEFENSE FUND! READ ALT.RELIGION.SCIENTOLOGY! Send checks to MORRISON & FOERSTER, 345 California Street, San Francisco, California 94104-2675. Telephone: (415) 677-7000 Fax: (415) 677-7522 Contact People: Carla Oakley and Katie Walsh. MAKE SURE YOU LABEL YOUR CHECK "DENNIS ERLICH DEFENSE FUND". Checks should be made out to Morrison & Foerster. For verification of this info, email ssteele@eff.org (Shari Steele) SAVE THE REV! [ For Public Key: finger anon2c9e@nyx10.cs.du.edu ] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6 iQCVAwUBL/t/+dOUGUXWNqytAQGiJQP+IQ5iUUJnxMMV1mxUkrim4+VgyfQupHCX CmfKp5HE0hPtLcf7z/rndFakxAr5CtQVaBocipJeyEP4szaCL8aY3WKWLN6xALCk k/qbFqjK70+R0YAxZI+G6jzzQHEh6eqOgbPJbxwTjWdb5eROZozQcAhwU0xrKanH 24sAxyOZG9A= =WKm6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >From soc.motss Thu Jul 6 15:48:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!news.mindlink.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!io.org!winternet.com!capella From: capella@winternet.com (Church of BattleTech) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Followup-To: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Date: 6 Jul 1995 06:54:26 GMT Organization: StarNet Communications, Inc Lines: 51 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tg1b2$b68@blackice.winternet.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: icicle.winternet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307091 alt.censorship:56379 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32170 comp.org.eff.talk:57585 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6576 [NOTE: I have removed soc.motss from the Followup line.] I do not make a habit of posting email, as I find it very rude, but as you will see, I did have no other choice, really. The post explains itself. I will, however, point out that I had mailed Mr. Cherry first--included in the following are my mail to him and his reply to me. ================BEGIN INCLUDED TEXT====================== Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 21:57:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Fred Cherry To: Church of BattleTech Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship On Wed, 5 Jul 1995, Church of BattleTech wrote: > Yes dear, but were you sending unsolicited mailings of postcards to > people who were completely uninterested in or offended by your message, > or were you mailing them to people who would have been interested in > their message? Come on, I think you should tell the WHOLE story, not > just those parts that will gain sympathy for you. > > --Camille Klein, a happy bisexual. > [my .sig snipped for brevity] Ask the question ON THE INTERNET, and I will respond. ************************************************************************* Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves. - Lincoln john1@interport.net, a.k.a. themadmailer@bix.com ===================END INCLUDED TEXT=================== There Mr. Cherry, I have asked on the Net. Now kindly answer my question, please. Thank you. --Camille Klein. -- "Mah momma always said people were like a box of chocolates: YUM!" --Forrest Dahmer The Church of BattleTech--the Thinking Player's BT Fan Club! KILL VEGETARIANS AND EAT THEM!!! This message brought to you by the Popular Front for the Defenestration of Haim Saban and Shuki Levy. Thank you. >From soc.motss Thu Jul 6 15:48:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!agate!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news1.ucsd.edu!nothing.ucsd.edu!brian From: brian@nothing.ucsd.edu (Brian Kantor) Newsgroups: soc.motss Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 6 Jul 1995 06:57:31 GMT Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd. Lines: 5 Message-ID: <3tg1gr$2up@news2.ucsd.edu> References: <3td1qc$cb@news2.ucsd.edu> <3td9u4$qc3@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: nothing.ucsd.edu In article <3td9u4$qc3@netaxs.com> grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) writes: >Did I mention how much old time news hackers turn me on? ::giggle:: Flattery will get you everywhere, dear boy. Or chocolate. - Brian >From soc.motss Thu Jul 6 15:48:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!interport!not-for-mail From: john1@interport.net (Fred Cherry) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc,soc.motss Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 6 Jul 1995 07:06:30 -0400 Organization: Johns & Call Girls United Against Repression Lines: 82 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tgg3m$9m2@interport.net> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3tg1b2$b68@blackice.winternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: interport.net X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #4 (NOV) Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:56384 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32171 comp.org.eff.talk:57588 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6579 soc.motss:307101 In <3tg1b2$b68@blackice.winternet.com> capella@winternet.com (Church of BattleTech) writes: >[NOTE: I have removed soc.motss from the Followup line.] I have restored soc.motss to the newsgroup line. The thread started in soc.motss, and that's where it should continue to be discussed. >I do not make a habit of posting email, as I find it very rude, but as >you will see, I did have no other choice, really. There's nothing rude about it. After all, doesn't Melinda Shore have, as part of her sig., the following: "If you send me harassing E-Mail, I'll probably post it."? >The post explains itself. I will, however, point out that I had mailed >Mr. Cherry first--included in the following are my mail to him and his reply >to me. >================BEGIN INCLUDED TEXT====================== >Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 21:57:48 -0400 (EDT) >From: Fred Cherry >To: Church of BattleTech >Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship >On Wed, 5 Jul 1995, Church of BattleTech wrote: >> Yes dear, but were you sending unsolicited mailings of postcards to >> people who were completely uninterested in or offended by your message, >> or were you mailing them to people who would have been interested in >> their message? Come on, I think you should tell the WHOLE story, not >> just those parts that will gain sympathy for you. >> >> --Camille Klein, a happy bisexual. >> >[my .sig snipped for brevity] >Ask the question ON THE INTERNET, and I will respond. >************************************************************************* >Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves. - Lincoln >john1@interport.net, a.k.a. themadmailer@bix.com >===================END INCLUDED TEXT=================== >There Mr. Cherry, I have asked on the Net. Now kindly answer my >question, please. Thank you. >--Camille Klein. >-- > "Mah momma always said people were like a box of chocolates: YUM!" >--Forrest Dahmer > The Church of BattleTech--the Thinking Player's BT Fan Club! >KILL VEGETARIANS AND EAT THEM!!! >This message brought to you by the Popular Front for the Defenestration of > Haim Saban and Shuki Levy. Thank you. I sent my cards to public officials, such as Congersmen, state legislators, governors, etc. I also sent them to newspapers, magazines, radio and television stations. I also sent them to various religious organizations such as the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of New York, the Salvation Army, etc. I also sent them to friends, just to see whether or not they were being seized. Usually when the Post Office seized my cards they didn't inform me of that fact. I generally sent the cards during election campaigns. For example, one of my cards was headlined: "Vote for Cuomo, Not the Homo." Now that I have answered your question, please answer MY question: Who are Haim Saban and Shuki Levy and from what height do you want to defenestrate them? ************************************************************************* Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves. - Lincoln john1@interport.net, a.k.a. themadmailer@bix.com >From soc.motss Thu Jul 6 15:48:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!interport!not-for-mail From: john1@interport.net (Fred Cherry) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 6 Jul 1995 07:26:05 -0400 Organization: Johns & Call Girls United Against Repression Lines: 23 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tgh8d$ace@interport.net> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tf4ae$122@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tfe1u$j4q@sundog.tiac.net> <3tfv7h$fvt@nyx10.cs.du.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: interport.net X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #4 (NOV) Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307106 alt.censorship:56387 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32172 comp.org.eff.talk:57590 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6580 In <3tfv7h$fvt@nyx10.cs.du.edu> anon2c9e@nyx10.cs.du.edu (henry) writes: >cherry's a pain in the ass, but christ, at least he's utterly >incoherent and tripping all over himself continually and publicly >demonstrating what an utter imbecile he is for the edification >and amusement of the usenet public. would you really rather >zeleny came back? jesus, that crazy son of a bitch had me >dragging down books from my bookshelves in a frenzy to find >material to counter his lies--cherry can generally be answered >in thirty seconds or so with a quick smacking around. You say Zeleny was a liar? Can you deny that Gene Ward Smith told Zeleny to "Fuck your ass with broken glass!"? Can you also deny that Rod Swift, a homosexual neo-nazi, told Zeleny that "You're the type of Jew that gave Hitler some justification for his genocide, I'm sure."? ************************************************************************* Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves. - Lincoln john1@interport.net, a.k.a. themadmailer@bix.com >From soc.motss Thu Jul 6 15:48:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!yarrina.connect.com.au!news.uwa.edu.au!classic.iinet.com.au!not-for-mail From: cub@iinet.com.au (Rod Swift) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 6 Jul 1995 21:08:39 +0800 Organization: iiNET Technologies Lines: 36 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tgn8n$1dd@classic.iinet.com.au> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: classic.iinet.com.au X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #3 (NOV) Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307206 alt.censorship:56430 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32186 comp.org.eff.talk:57609 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6618 nwu@netcom.com (National Writers Union) writes: >The New Technologies Campaign, the Political Issues >Committee, and the Queer Caucus of the National Writers >Union take vigorous exception to denying -- or attempting to >deny -- Internet access to anyone for the content of Usenet >posts. This self-styled vigilantism is little better than >bigotry hiding under a white sheet. Then this campaign, committee and caucus does not know the facts. IT has been justified in having Fred Cherry removed from sites based on his behaviour. In the case of his arguments with me, he has constantly lied and presented deistortions to deliberately defame me. The case of defamatory speech is not a case of free speech. Mr Cherry has refused numerously the attempts and emails from me asking him to cease and desist the defamation of my character and the misrepresentation of my position. Similarly, he has been provided with the actual truth and stance on a number of issues in relation to my views, and has continued to post lies, disinformation and untruths. If Fred had something positive tosay, I'd support him. Since he has nothing but derisiive and hateful speech towards me, and lies about me, then I cannot supporthis continued access to the network. Rod -- | ... ..... | E-mail: cub@iinet.com.au | ******* | | + + + + + + + + | http://nether.net/~rod/html/ | ***** | | * * * * * * * * | | *** | | R o d S w i f t |The Christian Right is neither| * | >From soc.motss Thu Jul 6 15:48:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!yarrina.connect.com.au!news.uwa.edu.au!classic.iinet.com.au!not-for-mail From: cub@iinet.com.au (Rod Swift) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 6 Jul 1995 21:13:10 +0800 Organization: iiNET Technologies Lines: 21 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tgnh6$1k7@classic.iinet.com.au> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t8skr$31p@interport.net> <3t9336$kaa@panix2.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: classic.iinet.com.au X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #3 (NOV) Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307207 alt.censorship:56431 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32187 comp.org.eff.talk:57610 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6619 vicric@panix.com (Vicki Richman) writes: >I know of your long support for the queer-rights movement. Vicki, I honestly find this statement laughable. Fred Cherry has persistently and unrelentlessly attacked me in the past solely based on the lies and figments of his own imagination. He does not support the queer right s movement. He supports the destruction of equality for gay people I just hope you see that before he bites *YOUR* hand as he did miune -- I support him and his quest for legal prostitution. Of course, he claims, incessantly, different. Rod -- | ... ..... | E-mail: cub@iinet.com.au | ******* | | + + + + + + + + | http://nether.net/~rod/html/ | ***** | | * * * * * * * * | | *** | | R o d S w i f t |The Christian Right is neither| * | >From soc.motss Thu Jul 6 15:48:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!interport!not-for-mail From: john1@interport.net (Fred Cherry) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 6 Jul 1995 09:14:38 -0400 Organization: Johns & Call Girls United Against Repression Lines: 63 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tgnju$hdm@interport.net> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t7ptm$j20@sundog.tiac.net> <3te8hi$l0k@interport.net> <3teoii$4j8@sundog.tiac.net> <3tf4ae$122@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tfe1u$j4q@sundog.tiac.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: interport.net X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #4 (NOV) Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307128 alt.censorship:56400 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32175 comp.org.eff.talk:57593 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6589 In <3tfe1u$j4q@sundog.tiac.net> donahue@omphalos.skepsis.com (Bob Donahue) writes: >Carl M Kadie (kadie@sal.cs.uiuc.edu) wrote: >: donahue@omphalos.skepsis.com (Bob Donahue) writes: >: >On the other hand, I insist that the charter of the *.motss groups be >: >respected. >: I hate viewpoint discrimination in the charters of unmoderated >: newsgroups. I personally think that if I can say "X" in an unmoderated >: forum, then someone use should be able to say "Not X". Viewpoint >: discrimation is hard to enforce. It is likely illegal for sites that >: are bound by the U.S. First Amendment (such as state universities) to >: enforce viewpoint discrimation in unmoderated newsgroups. >So, that also means that every course they offer has to >permit "not X" lecturers? I don't think so. Classes in state universities should allow students to question the professor in class. Do you advocate the type of class which was taught jointly by Catherine A. MacKinnon and Andrea Dworkin on pornography? This happened several years ago at the University of Minnesota in Minneapolis, Minn. No dissent from the anti-pronography dogma of Dworkin and MacKinnon was allowed in that class. On the other hand, a private religious college is permitted to forbid any questioning of the religious dogma of the school's religion. >: If you want to enforce discrimation based on viewpoint (or sex, race, >: sexual identity, etc.), do it yourself via moderation. Don't ask or >: expect ten thousands sites to do moderate to your standards for you. >That's unnecessary micromanaging. >This also means that all the non-moderated religious >newsgroups should be permitted to have "not X" postings there >too? In fact, that is exactly what happens. Rod Swift is constantly going into the alt.christnet hierarchy and posting homosexual dogma there. >By this token, why not eliminate all newsgroups and >just have one BIG one called "news". Since most topics are >multifacted, it'd eliminate the problems of what's germaine >once and for all. >No - it's vital to have designated places where "not X" >positions can be aired. It is NOT vital that they be aired in >the exact same places. The resultant cacaphony (which many would >argue already exists) would render things useless before long. >The very act of creating different newsgroups implies that >the newsgroup itself is distinct. In the case of *.motss the >distinction is that it's a pro-GBLO* zone. Where is there a pro-heterosexual zone? Why should ONLY GBLOs have a zone dedicated for pro-GBLO opinion? ************************************************************************* Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves. - Lincoln john1@interport.net, a.k.a. themadmailer@bix.com >From soc.motss Thu Jul 6 15:48:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!yarrina.connect.com.au!news.uwa.edu.au!classic.iinet.com.au!not-for-mail From: cub@iinet.com.au (Rod Swift) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 6 Jul 1995 21:25:03 +0800 Organization: iiNET Technologies Lines: 59 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tgo7f$25b@classic.iinet.com.au> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t7jgl$98p@netaxs.com> <3t9apa$3s6@interport.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: classic.iinet.com.au X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #3 (NOV) Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307208 alt.censorship:56432 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32188 comp.org.eff.talk:57611 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6620 john1@interport.net (Fred Cherry) writes: >The reason Panix.com terminated my account is that Panix.com has its own >political agenda, and it is the same as the agenda of soc.motss. Roy Radow, >the chief spokesman for the North American Man/Boy Love Association >(NAMBLA), an organization of homosexual child-molesters, used to have an >account at Panix.com, and the management there thought better of him than >they did of me. So does this counteract y7our *lie* that you claimed *I* had your account cancelled? You are really slipping, Fred. > >Aren't you > >aware that homosexuals are constantly trying to get their opponents > >kicked off of the Internet? There was, for example, the time when Rod > >Swift was trying to get Chuck Whealton censored, and Ken Weaverling, > >Whealton's system administrator, refused to bow down to homosexual > >pressure. Yet another *lie* from Fred. I wonder why he tries to peddle them? I never asked for his account to be cancelled, nor for him to be *censored*, but for his sysadmin to investigate the Chuckster's vile usage of the internet. >The reason that Radow of NAMBLA can get away with posting to inappropriate >newsgroups, while I cannot even post to appropriate newsgroups is that the >denizens of soc.motss know how to complain to sysadmins whenever they see >anything they don't like. And that tired ol' dead horse gets another beating -- the conspiracy from the motss cabal. Give it a rest Cherry. Panix cancelled your account, not us. >That's right. The soc.motss holy dogma says that debate on the subject of >homosexuality can only be one sided. That is, the holy dogma of soc.motss >says that any discussion on the subject of homosexuality must be one that >glorifies and exalts homosexuality. Which shouldn't be a problem for you, should it "Mr Long Time Supporter of Queer Rights Supporter" *guffaw* Vicric would be pleased with your support of her :) >Meanwhile, heterosexuality is constantly reviled and degraded. Yet another *fabrication* of Fred.... Constantly? Try *damn rarely* You are a fraud, a lying fraud. And that's not because you are straight, Fred, but because you are FRED CHERRY, and that's all you'll *ever* amount to -- dirtbag. Rod -- | ... ..... | E-mail: cub@iinet.com.au | ******* | | + + + + + + + + | http://nether.net/~rod/html/ | ***** | | * * * * * * * * | | *** | | R o d S w i f t |The Christian Right is neither| * | >From soc.motss Thu Jul 6 15:48:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!yarrina.connect.com.au!news.uwa.edu.au!classic.iinet.com.au!not-for-mail From: cub@iinet.com.au (Rod Swift) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 6 Jul 1995 21:26:13 +0800 Organization: iiNET Technologies Lines: 19 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tgo9l$282@classic.iinet.com.au> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t8skr$31p@interport.net> <3t9336$kaa@panix2.panix.com> <3t950c$cak_001@dialup.access.net> <3t9dko$bfc@interport.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: classic.iinet.com.au X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #3 (NOV) Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307209 alt.censorship:56433 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32189 comp.org.eff.talk:57613 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6621 john1@interport.net (Fred Cherry) writes: > dhuppert@panix.com (Donald Huppert) writes: >> vicric@panix.com (Vicki Richman) wrote [of Fred Cherry]: >>>I know of your long support for the queer-rights movement. >>WHAT?????!!!! >Ms. Richman has a strange sense of humor, sometimes. Damn. And I thought she was taking lying and mistruth lessons of you, Fred. Rod -- | ... ..... | E-mail: cub@iinet.com.au | ******* | | + + + + + + + + | http://nether.net/~rod/html/ | ***** | | * * * * * * * * | | *** | | R o d S w i f t |The Christian Right is neither| * | >From soc.motss Thu Jul 6 15:48:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!yarrina.connect.com.au!news.uwa.edu.au!classic.iinet.com.au!not-for-mail From: cub@iinet.com.au (Rod Swift) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 6 Jul 1995 21:29:28 +0800 Organization: iiNET Technologies Lines: 28 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tgofo$2f2@classic.iinet.com.au> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t8skr$31p@interport.net> <3t9336$kaa@panix2.panix.com> <3t950c$cak_001@dialup.access.net> <3tb35k$c6t@panix2.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: classic.iinet.com.au X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #3 (NOV) Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307202 alt.censorship:56426 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32182 comp.org.eff.talk:57605 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6614 vicric@panix.com (Vicki Richman) writes: >Fred supports the right of lesbian, male, and transgendered >prostitutes to conduct business openly and legally. He >regularly joins the Pride March with that message. But he does not support gay and lesbian people who do not work the streets, even if those gay and lesbian people support the rights of sex workers and their clients. This is evident by his past actions to defame gay people, starting with his little postcard campaign, up to his net-thuggery of today. It's time you *quizzed* your Friend Fred and see what lies, for example, he's been peddling here about me and other supporters of consensual adult prostitution arrangements... ... and how those gay and lesbian people have not only *no* corresponding reciprocal support from Fred, but are constantly lied about and defamed by Fred. Rod -- | ... ..... | E-mail: cub@iinet.com.au | ******* | | + + + + + + + + | http://nether.net/~rod/html/ | ***** | | * * * * * * * * | | *** | | R o d S w i f t |The Christian Right is neither| * | >From soc.motss Thu Jul 6 15:48:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!yarrina.connect.com.au!news.uwa.edu.au!classic.iinet.com.au!not-for-mail From: cub@iinet.com.au (Rod Swift) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 6 Jul 1995 21:37:08 +0800 Organization: iiNET Technologies Lines: 58 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tgou4$2o1@classic.iinet.com.au> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t7ptm$j20@sundog.tiac.net> <3te8hi$l0k@interport.net> <3teoii$4j8@sundog.tiac.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: classic.iinet.com.au X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #3 (NOV) Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307203 alt.censorship:56427 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32183 comp.org.eff.talk:57606 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6615 donahue@omphalos.skepsis.com (Bob Donahue) writes: >: Are you serious? YOU, sir, called upon the soc.motss cabal to aid and abet >: YOU in your efforts to silence me. When one complains, one demands that >: something be done to change the reason for the complaint. YOU sir, are >: complaining about the content of my messages. Here is the evidence, edited, >: of course to X out some details: >And of course you're lying. In the text that you quoted, >I at no time said that you should not be permitted access >to USENET. This is exactly how Fred lies and cheats and misinforms to spread his hate. You are correct, Bob, as you only asked people to register their complaints about their newsgroup being interrupted with Fred-prattle. I'm sure that if Fred wished to post constructive messages, rather than off-topic garbage, he'd be welcome in this newsgroup. I note your message does not seek to ban him from the net. You are correct in exposing Fred's lie. >I wholeheartedly support you, your views, and your >postings int he appropriate forums. *.motss is not among them. It's useless, Bob, Fred will continue to bite the hand that feeds him -- namely the hands that support his cause, or his speech, if only he'd exercise it appropriately. >Were you to get into trouble for posting something >to a.p.h, I would definitely side with your complaint. Most of us would, I'm sure. I know I would, considering it's the appropriate area. >Give it a try - you'll be surprised at how much it will work. Again, Bob, a 99% bet that it's futile. Fred cannot resist posting to *.motss groups. Fred cannot resist posting lies. I admire your courage, Bob, but talking to Fred has proven to be an impossible task for me. He still lies about my views and positions on issues, and he will not stop doing that. He is obsessive in his abusive behaviour. The funny thing is that people like that normally get their own accounts pulled by their actions -- I'm surprised that panix.com put up with him for so long. Rod -- | ... ..... | E-mail: cub@iinet.com.au | ******* | | + + + + + + + + | http://nether.net/~rod/html/ | ***** | | * * * * * * * * | | *** | | R o d S w i f t |The Christian Right is neither| * | >From soc.motss Thu Jul 6 15:48:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!yarrina.connect.com.au!news.uwa.edu.au!classic.iinet.com.au!not-for-mail From: cub@iinet.com.au (Rod Swift) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 6 Jul 1995 21:51:57 +0800 Organization: iiNET Technologies Lines: 36 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tgppt$3df@classic.iinet.com.au> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tf4ae$122@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tfe1u$j4q@sundog.tiac.net> <3tfv7h$fvt@nyx10.cs.du.edu> <3tgh8d$ace@interport.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: classic.iinet.com.au X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #3 (NOV) Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307205 alt.censorship:56429 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32185 comp.org.eff.talk:57608 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6617 [a message to john1@interport.net, root@interport.net] >Can you also deny that Rod Swift, a >homosexual neo-nazi, told Zeleny that "You're the type of Jew that gave >Hitler some justification for his genocide, I'm sure."? Dear sirs, Could you please instruct your user, Fred Cherry, to immediately desist posting defamatory statements about myself to any and all public newsgroups on the Internet. His statement that I am a "homosexual Neo-Nazi" is a deliberate mistruth that is being constantly crossposted by him on repetetive occasions to defame me. I am not, nor have I ever been, a supporter of the Nazi movement, Nazi Party or any other socialist or authoritarian regime. In fact, I am a strong supporter of the Jewish community, and a critic and outspoken opponent of the atrocities which occured in Nazi Germany during the Hitler era. Mr Chewrry has been advised of this on numerous occasions by myself and others, yet refuses to desist from posting his lies. Should Mr Cherry's defamatory postings not cease forthwith, I will have no other option but to investigate legal action against both Mr Cherry and your company as publishers of the statement. Thank you for your time Rod Swift -- | ... ..... | E-mail: cub@iinet.com.au | ******* | | + + + + + + + + | http://nether.net/~rod/html/ | ***** | | * * * * * * * * | | *** | | R o d S w i f t |The Christian Right is neither| * | >From soc.motss Thu Jul 6 15:48:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!agate!news.Stanford.EDU!not-for-mail From: zwicky@Csli.Stanford.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Newsgroups: soc.motss Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 6 Jul 1995 07:22:05 -0700 Organization: out in linguistics Lines: 14 Message-ID: <3tgrid$1ot@Csli.Stanford.EDU> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tep3l$olu@interport.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: csli.stanford.edu Summary: re: ACLU in article , rog donley asks: >What is your source for the claim that the ACLU says they take >EVERY First Amendment case? I've NEVER heard any ACLU person say >that, nor have I read it in any of their literature. indeed, they do not, as a call to any ACLU office would confirm. their resources are finite, and they must pick their cases carefully. arnold, (with jacques) a card-carrying member of the ACLU >From soc.motss Thu Jul 6 15:48:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!yarrina.connect.com.au!news.uwa.edu.au!classic.iinet.com.au!not-for-mail From: cub@iinet.com.au (Rod Swift) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 6 Jul 1995 22:23:05 +0800 Organization: iiNET Technologies Lines: 39 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tgrk9$4ph@classic.iinet.com.au> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t7ptm$j20@sundog.tiac.net> <3te8hi$l0k@interport.net> <3teoii$4j8@sundog.tiac.net> <3tf4ae$122@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tfe1u$j4q@sundog.tiac.net> <3tgnju$hdm@interport.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: classic.iinet.com.au X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #3 (NOV) Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307204 alt.censorship:56428 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32184 comp.org.eff.talk:57607 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6616 john1@interport.net (Fred Cherry) writes: >In fact, that is exactly what happens. Rod Swift is constantly going into >the alt.christnet hierarchy and posting homosexual dogma there. No. I reply to people who are spreading untruths about homosexuality there. Further, the major difference is that I try to limit it to 2-3 newsgroups (unlike you who crossposts avidly to 20+ groups at times). Further, alt.christnet is appropriate and you will note I do not post usually to soc.religion.christian. I respect the soc.* group that Christians have, and debate on the alt.* group concerned (usually crossposted to alt.politics.homosexuality anyway.) This is completely different to your modus operandi and intent when you post to soc.motss. >Where is there a pro-heterosexual zone? Why should ONLY GBLOs have a zone >dedicated for pro-GBLO opinion? We have not precluded straights from creating soc.motos! Why don't you RFD it? Oh, that's right, you can't even do that. The last time you were told to "go create it" you claimed that you couldn't or that it wouldn't worth it. I had to RFD your last newsgroup. You claimed I was out to stop the newsgroup. Yet another case of Cherry-noia. I publically challenge you to do something for yourself rather than whine, Fred. Write a RFD for soc.motos Rod -- | ... ..... | E-mail: cub@iinet.com.au | ******* | | + + + + + + + + | http://nether.net/~rod/html/ | ***** | | * * * * * * * * | | *** | | R o d S w i f t |The Christian Right is neither| * | >From soc.motss Thu Jul 6 15:48:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!yarrina.connect.com.au!news.uwa.edu.au!classic.iinet.com.au!not-for-mail From: cub@iinet.net.au Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 6 Jul 1995 22:30:13 +0800 Organization: iiNET Technologies Lines: 22 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tgs1l$54a@classic.iinet.com.au> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tf4ae$122@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tfe1u$j4q@sundog.tiac.net> <3tfv7h$fvt@nyx10.cs.du.edu> <3tgh8d$ace@interport.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: classic.iinet.com.au Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307201 alt.censorship:56425 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32181 comp.org.eff.talk:57604 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6613 john1@interport.net (Fred Cherry) writes: >Can you also deny that Rod Swift, a >homosexual neo-nazi, told Zeleny that "You're the type of Jew that gave >Hitler some justification for his genocide, I'm sure."? .... stated in the context of a condemnation of the holocaust performed by Hitler and his Nazi party. You have had this told to you time and time and time again, but you refuse to stop making the allegation. If you do not stop the allegation, I will be again investigationg the option of legal action against you and your internet service provider. The statement that I am a "homosexual neo-Nazi" is a lie. Please retract it. Rod >From soc.motss Thu Jul 6 15:48:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sal!kadie From: kadie@sal.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M Kadie) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 6 Jul 1995 16:06:29 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 47 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3th1m5$e43@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t7ptm$j20@sundog.tiac.net> <3te8hi$l0k@interport.net> <3teoii$4j8@sundog.tiac.net> <3tf4ae$122@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tfe1u$j4q@sundog.tiac.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: sal.cs.uiuc.edu Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307177 alt.censorship:56418 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32180 comp.org.eff.talk:57601 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6607 donahue@omphalos.skepsis.com (Bob Donahue) writes: >So, that also means that every course they offer has to >permit "not X" lecturers? I don't think so. University classes are moderated. Moreoever, they usually do allow replies. [...] >This also means that all the non-moderated religious >newsgroups should be permitted to have "not X" postings there >too? [...] Yes. I would hate to have a state university punish a student for replying to a homophopic posting in an unmoderated religious newsgroup. Even worse, if you think *anything* should be enforceable in a charter then someone could create an unmoderated newsgroup that said "only heterosexuals can post here" AND have it enforced by sites, for example, state universities. Where do you draw the line? [...] >No - it's vital to have designated places where "not X" >positions can be aired. It is NOT vital that they be aired in >the exact same places. [...] I don't think creating a system of "free speech ghettos" would help bring about justice for gay people. Park police: "I'm sorry people, you can't protest here. But there is an empty field right outside town where you can go." [In the Vietnam era, the Supreme Court said that the government could not confine free speech to a few designated places.] Recall that some readers of rec.scouting, from time to time, have tried to avoid criticism of the anti-gay, anti-atheist policies of the Boy Scouts of America. They suggested creating something like "alt.gay.scouting-policy". - Carl -- Carl Kadie -- I do not represent any organization or employer; this is just me. = Email: kadie@cs.uiuc.edu = = URL: >From alt.censorship Fri Jul 7 10:20:49 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!sundog.tiac.net!omphalos.skepsis.com!donahue From: donahue@omphalos.skepsis.com (Bob Donahue) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Followup-To: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Date: 6 Jul 1995 17:21:27 GMT Organization: Skepsis Research and Development Lines: 2 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3th62n$kcd@sundog.tiac.net> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3tg1b2$b68@blackice.winternet.com> <3tgg3m$9m2@interport.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: omphalos.skepsis.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:56437 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32190 comp.org.eff.talk:57614 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6625 [soc.motss removed from the Follow-ups line] >From soc.motss Thu Jul 6 15:48:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!interport!not-for-mail From: john1@interport.net (Fred Cherry) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 6 Jul 1995 15:42:36 -0400 Organization: Johns & Call Girls United Against Repression Lines: 176 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3thebc$rqn@interport.net> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t7jgl$98p@netaxs.com> <3t9apa$3s6@interport.net> <3t9cir$3q2@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: interport.net X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #4 (NOV) Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307263 alt.censorship:56457 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32196 comp.org.eff.talk:57628 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6638 In <3t9cir$3q2@netaxs.com> grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) writes: >Followups locked. Followups unlocked. >In article <3t9apa$3s6@interport.net>, >Fred Cherry (john1@interport.net) wrote: >> Roy Radow, the chief spokesman for the North American Man/Boy Love >> Association (NAMBLA), an organization of homosexual child-molesters, >> used to have an account at Panix.com, and the management there thought >> better of him than they did of me. Here is the evidence: >[ snip ] >I don't doubt it. What does it say about your net.behavior that a >spokesperson for a child molesters lobby is more well liked than you? What does it say about the management of panix.com that a spokesperson for a HOMOSEXUAL child molesters lobby is more well liked by the management of panix.com that I am? >> The reason that Radow of NAMBLA can get away with posting to inappropriate >> newsgroups, while I cannot even post to appropriate newsgroups is that the >> denizens of soc.motss know how to complain to sysadmins whenever they see >> anything they don't like. >Can you provide examples of Roy Radow egregiously abusing crossposting as >you have? Thought not. You say you THOUGHT? The [bleep] you did! You just shot your mouth off WITHOUT THINKING. Anyway, here is the evidence that you are wrong: ----------------------------------snip------------------------------------- >From alt.sex.services Tue Jun 13 07:55:21 1995 Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.internet.services,alt.sex,alt.sex.breast,alt.sex.exhibitionism,alt.sex.masturbation,alt.sex.services,alt.sex.telephone,alt.sex.stories,alt.sex.strip-clubs,alt.sex.voyeurism,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.wizards,alt.sex.telephone, al Path: panix!news.mathworks.com!udel!news.sprintlink.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!radow From: radow@netcom.com (Roy Radow) Subject: Re: pedophilia Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <3qlu6n$ia6@horus.infinet.com> <3rbg8a$eho@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jun 1995 15:52:09 GMT Lines: 978 Sender: radow@netcom4.netcom.com ----------------------------------------snip------------------------------- Now, before you blame ME for this, look at the following material. You will see that it was tren34c@aol.com who actually did it. I notice the same pattern comes up repeatedly. Radow gets a stooge to post a request for information about pedophilia and then Radow responds with a long post glorifying and exalting homosexual child-molesting. -----------------------------------------snip-------------------------------- >From alt.sex.services Tue Jun 13 07:55:22 1995 Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.internet.services,alt.sex,alt.sex.breast,alt.sex.exhibitionism,alt.sex.masturbation,alt.sex.services,alt.sex.telephone,alt.sex.stories,alt.sex.strip-clubs,alt.sex.voyeurism,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.wizards,alt.sex.telephone, al Path: panix!news.mathworks.com!udel!news.sprintlink.net!news.dorsai.org!mycroft From: mycroft@news.dorsai.org (Keith Kushner) Subject: Re: pedophilia Message-ID: Followup-To: alt.config,alt.internet.services,alt.sex,alt.sex.breast,alt.sex.exhibitionism,alt.sex.masturbation,alt.sex.services,alt.sex.telephone,alt.sex.stories,alt.sex.strip-clubs,alt.sex.voyeurism,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.wizards,alt.sex.telephone, al Sender: news@dorsai.org (Keeper of the News) Organization: The Dorsai Embassy - New York References: <3qlu6n$ia6@horus.infinet.com> <3rbg8a$eho@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3rcflb$nl4@homer.alpha.net> Date: Sat, 10 Jun 1995 18:24:06 GMT Lines: 17 Xref: panix alt.config:75527 alt.internet.services:53557 alt.sex:207642 alt.sex.breast:12412 alt.sex.exhibitionism:11166 alt.sex.masturbation:35385 alt.sex.services:11736 alt.sex.telephone:4217 alt.sex.stories:75576 alt.sex.strip-clubs:10208 alt.sex.voy eurism:9546 alt.sex.pedophilia:3437 alt.sex.wizards:25896 Abner Kravitz (RMO@execpc.com) wrote: : In article <3rbg8a$eho@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, tren34c@aol.com says... : > ^^^^^^^ : >i would like more info on pedophilia....... please : Ah, Flame bait! And/or someone testing AOL software's new ability to crosspost inanities to dozens of groups. -- ************************************************************************ * Keith Kushner * Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? - Juvenal * * mycroft@dorsai.dorsai.org * * ************************************************************************ ------------------------------------snip-------------------------------- >[ ... ] >> >No, you dumbfuck, it's in the charter. That's not opinion. >> >That's dogma. Blow off. >> That's right. The soc.motss holy dogma says that debate on the subject of >> homosexuality can only be one sided. >Glad you're finally getting it, Fred. isn't interested in the >"homosexuality is {good, bad}" debate. So keep it out of here. >> Meanwhile, heterosexuality is constantly reviled and degraded. >What? >> Furthermore, the denizens of soc.motss are constantly emerging from >> their holy sanctuary to attack and defame heterosexuality and >> heterosexuals. >This means nothing. There is no hive mind. There is no cabal. >My behaviors inside and my behaviors in other newsgroups bear >no relation to each other. The same is true for Rod Swift and anyone else >you would care to bring up. What do you mean, "There is no cabal."? Here is evidence that there is indeed a cabal. I have Xed out some information. --------------------------------------snip------------------------------ >From soc.motss Tue Jun 27 05:29:59 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!news.kei.com!sundog.tiac.net!usenet! From: Bob Donahue Newsgroups: soc.motss Subject: Re: Fred Cherry: a hateful subhuman Date: 27 Jun 1995 03:05:16 GMT Organization: Skepsis Research and Development Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3snshc$q37@sundog.tiac.net> References: <3rhtb1$sst@panix.com> <3rq835$g1s@news.next.com> <3sn1sa$4mt@interport.net> <3snhgb$1fb@africa.lm.com> <3sno42$pkf@interport.net> <3snhgb$1fb@africa.lm.com> <3sno42$pkf@interport.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: omphalos.skepsis.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (X11; I; BSD/386 1.1 i386) X-URL: news:3sno42$pkf@interport.net john1@interport.net (Fred Cherry) wrote: >Why don't you homos ... >And furthermore, you homos ... >When it comes to complaining, you homos ... >B. Why do homos ... that number folks, is postmaster@interport.net ... Granted, it's not a fruit basket, but it seems that Fred's trying really hard to see how much he can "get away with" his new ISP. People local to NYC, might want to call XXXXXXXXXXXX at 212 XXX XXXX. BBC, cabal secretary... .. waterer of the pod -----------------------------------------snip---------------------- >> That is what this whole issue boils down to. I refuse to accept this >> situation and will continue to refuse to accept such a situation. >All together now! "I *won't* grow up..." All together now! "I *won't* stop telling fibs...." ************************************************************************* Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves. - Lincoln john1@interport.net, a.k.a. themadmailer@bix.com >From alt.censorship Fri Jul 7 10:20:49 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!noc.near.net!mercury.near.net!not-for-mail From: nmehl@bbnplanet.com (Nathan J. Mehl) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Followup-To: alt.dev.null Date: 6 Jul 1995 20:09:02 GMT Organization: BBN Planet Corporation, Cambridge, MA Lines: 22 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3thfsu$kna@mercury.near.net> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t7jgl$98p@netaxs.com> <3t9apa$3s6@interport.net> <3t9cir$3q2@netaxs.com> <3thebc$rqn@interport.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: poblano.near.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950520BETA PL0] Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307268 alt.censorship:56459 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32197 comp.org.eff.talk:57629 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6641 Fred Cherry (john1@interport.net) wrote in article <3thebc$rqn@interport.net>: : : What does it say about the management of panix.com that a spokesperson : for a HOMOSEXUAL child molesters lobby is more well liked by the : management of panix.com that I am? That you have managed the rare and unusual feat of making yourself even less liked than Roy Radow. You may wish to contemplate the implications of this. Alone. Follow up *anywhere* but news.admin.net-abuse.misc. The ravings of one crank and those foolish enough to engage him in conversation are not even slightly relevant. -- -------{Nathan J. Mehl}--------------------{nmehl@bbnplanet.com}-------| | Who brings you back when you're gone gone gone? | |If you think I speak for my employer, they'll be happy to correct you.| |-------------{http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nmehl/home.html}--------------- >From alt.censorship Fri Jul 7 10:20:49 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news2.near.net!info-server.bbn.com!news!levin From: levin@bbn.com Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Followup-To: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Date: 06 Jul 1995 20:10:01 GMT Organization: not much. Lines: 28 Distribution: inet Message-ID: References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t7jgl$98p@netaxs.com> <3t9apa$3s6@interport.net> <3t9cir$3q2@netaxs.com> <3thebc$rqn@interport.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: morpheus.bbn.com In-reply-to: john1@interport.net's message of 6 Jul 1995 15:42:36 -0400 Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:56461 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32199 comp.org.eff.talk:57631 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6644 In article <3thebc$rqn@interport.net> john1@interport.net (Fred Cherry) writes: In <3t9cir$3q2@netaxs.com> grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) writes: >Followups locked. Followups unlocked. >In article <3t9apa$3s6@interport.net>, >Fred Cherry (john1@interport.net) wrote: >> Roy Radow, the chief spokesman for the North American Man/Boy Love >> Association (NAMBLA), an organization of homosexual child-molesters, >> used to have an account at Panix.com, and the management there thought >> better of him than they did of me. Here is the evidence: >[ snip ] >I don't doubt it. What does it say about your net.behavior that a >spokesperson for a child molesters lobby is more well liked than you? What does it say about the management of panix.com that a spokesperson for a HOMOSEXUAL child molesters lobby is more well liked by the management of panix.com that I am? That the person you refer to understands and follows guidelines for posting to Usenet according to and adheres to Panix's rules and user agreements regarding same, and you don't? You have NOT YET ONCE answered this particular argument. >From alt.censorship Fri Jul 7 10:20:49 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sal!kadie From: kadie@sal.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M Kadie) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 6 Jul 1995 20:18:22 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 64 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3thgee$ikc@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3tgn8n$1dd@classic.iinet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: sal.cs.uiuc.edu Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307270 alt.censorship:56460 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32198 comp.org.eff.talk:57630 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6642 Saying that getting someone kicked off because of their viewpoint is not censorship, is like saying getting someone fired from Cracker Barrel Restaurant because they are gay is not employment discrimination. After all, it is the manger, not the complainer who does the firing. And besides there are plenty of other jobs. It may even be true, but it is cold comfort to people who lose their access or jobs. Has everyone forgotten Sylvia? (See references). - Carl ANNOTATED REFERENCES (All these documents are available on-line. Access information follows.) ================= news/mar_20_1994 ================= Timeline of Adusa.com's battle against "demeaning" articles [Paraphrase: "An (unwritten?) Columbia U. computer policy apparently violates the University's free expression policy. The computer policy has apparently been used to ban an off-site user from Columbia's Netnews facilities."] <2mghoa$etq@eff.org Timeline of Adusa.com's battle against "demeaning" articles [Paraphrase: "The sys op of the adusa.com BBS has complained to at least three academic institutions about private email and articles in soc.motss critical of him. The results so far: Cornell U. - Staff member must add a disclaimer to her nontechnical public postings. Columbia U. - An off-site user banned from posting Netnews because one of her articles contained "Fuck it" and "stop fucking up his private email". Hahnemann U. - Same user expelled from computer system.] <2mk195$gcl@eff.org> ================= ================= If you have gopher, you can browse the CAF archive with the command gopher gopher.eff.org These document(s) are also available by anonymous ftp (the preferred method) and by email. To get the file(s) via ftp, do an anonymous ftp to ftp.eff.org (192.77.172.4), and then: cd /pub/CAF/news get mar_20_1994 To get the file(s) by email, send email to ftpmail@decwrl.dec.com Include the line(s): connect ftp.eff.org cd /pub/CAF/news get mar_20_1994 -- Carl Kadie -- I do not represent any organization or employer; this is just me. = Email: kadie@cs.uiuc.edu = = URL: >From soc.motss Fri Jul 7 10:20:49 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!rockyd!cmcl2!is2.NYU.EDU!dwf4930 From: dwf4930@is2.nyu.edu (David W. Fenton) Newsgroups: soc.motss Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Followup-To: soc.motss Date: 6 Jul 1995 21:01:10 GMT Organization: New York University Lines: 52 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3thium$1pm@cmcl2.NYU.EDU> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t7ptm$j20@sundog.tiac.net> <3te8hi$l0k@interport.net> <3teoii$4j8@sundog.tiac.net> <3tf4ae$122@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tfe1u$j4q@sundog.tiac.net> <3tgnju$hdm@interport.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: is2.nyu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] [followups trimmed to soc.motss only -- you'll see why] Although I'm getting tired of Fred Cherry's latest incursion into soc.motss (especially given who the remaining respondents are), it has just occurred to me that there is a gaping inconsistency (as though that would come as a surprise) in Cherry's whole insistence on posting to so many newsgroups. Cherry doesn't read soc.motss. He only reads things which happen to be posted both hear and elsewhere. I know this, because a while back, Cherry posted his NAMBLA message, where he announced that Panix was excommunicating him. I was thrilled, of course, but I didn't really want my name emblazoned across dozens of newsgroups, so I trimmed the followups to soc.motss only. (My message suggested a round of the Hallelujah chorus in response to the news). A few regular motssers responded to my expression of joy with doubts about free speech and all that, and I responded with my usual criticism of Cherry's vile hatred, inappropriateness, etc. Cherry never responded. That's because he never saw the message -- it appeared only in soc.motss. It will be interesting to see if Cherry sees this one and responds. In other words, Cherry is not interested in the ongoing conversations in soc.motss. He wouldn't know anything about the culture here, because he is an outsider who appears only when he wants to talk about himself and his distorted, hateful, irrational view of the world. I see Cherry more and more clearly now -- he is a man so divorced from real human social intercourse that his netwide trolling is his only social interaction. It makes responding to him an act of charity really, because a response is an acknowledgement of his existence, an "intellectual" engagement with him. If we really want Cherry to leave us alone, we should just never respond to him, but simply post blank responses with soc.motss removed from the followups. This would be the ultimate cruelty, the most potent criticism, because it would remove him to the realm of a minor annoyance, much like we bat away a housefly when it buzzes past our faces. Filthy as that housefly may be, we don't get all exercized over it, we just shoo it out the window. Now, Fred -- are you reading this? David W. Fenton New York University dwf4930@is2.nyu.edu >From alt.censorship Fri Jul 7 10:20:49 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cyberstore.ca!skypoint.com!news3.mr.net!mr.net!winternet.com!capella From: capella@winternet.com (Church of BattleTech) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc,soc.motss Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Followup-To: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Date: 6 Jul 1995 21:35:49 GMT Organization: StarNet Communications, Inc Lines: 47 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3thkvl$47i@blackice.winternet.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3tg1b2$b68@blackice.winternet.com> <3tgg3m$9m2@interport.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: icicle.winternet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:56501 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32203 comp.org.eff.talk:57651 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6663 soc.motss:307339 Thus it is written in the Book of Fred Cherry: : I sent my cards to public officials, such as Congersmen, state : legislators, governors, etc. I also sent them to newspapers, magazines, : radio and television stations. I also sent them to various religious : organizations such as the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of New York, the : Salvation Army, etc. I also sent them to friends, just to see whether or : not they were being seized. Usually when the Post Office seized my cards : they didn't inform me of that fact. I generally sent the cards during : election campaigns. For example, one of my cards was headlined: "Vote for : Cuomo, Not the Homo." I can see how this would be very offensive to some people, but I do not think that it's grounds for the ACLU to deny assistance to you. You do need to realise, Mr. Cherry, that the ACLU does not have the resources to defend everyone who requests their assistance--they rely almost totally on private donations, and this forces them to be very choosy about who they can and will help. For example: my husband has been having a fight with a certain University in the Central US for quite a while re: academic freedom and access to resources for purposes of erudition. The ACLU doesn't have the resources *at this time* to help my husband, despite the fact that he DOES have a very valid case against this University. So I don't think they're picking on you just cos you're a homophobe. Rather, it is a question of whether or not they have the resources to handle the case. : Now that I have answered your question, please answer MY question: Fair 'nuff. : Who are Haim Saban and Shuki Levy and from what height do you want to : defenestrate them? They're the persons responsible for the existence of Saban 'Entertainment' and the Mighty Morph'n Power Rangers (and the BattleTech Animated Series). Suffice it to say I am.....displeased with these two. As for the recommended height of defenestration, well--the uppermost floor of the Sears Tower will do nicely. --Camille. -- "Mah momma always said people were like a box of chocolates: YUM!" --Forrest Dahmer The Church of BattleTech--the Thinking Player's BT Fan Club! KILL VEGETARIANS AND EAT THEM!!! This message brought to you by the Popular Front for the Defenestration of Haim Saban and Shuki Levy. Thank you. >From alt.censorship Fri Jul 7 10:20:49 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.mathworks.com!news4.ner.bbnplanet.net!news3.near.net!chaos.dac.neu.edu!lynx.dac.neu.edu!tfarrell From: tfarrell@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Thomas Farrell) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Followup-To: misc.test Date: 6 Jul 1995 22:40:09 GMT Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA Lines: 25 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3thoo9$b85@chaos.dac.neu.edu> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t7jgl$98p@netaxs.com> <3t9apa$3s6@interport.net> <3tgo7f$25b@classic.iinet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: lynx.dac.neu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307323 alt.censorship:56492 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32201 comp.org.eff.talk:57646 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6654 Rod Swift (cub@iinet.com.au) wrote: : john1@interport.net (Fred Cherry) writes: : >The reason Panix.com terminated my account is that Panix.com has its own : >political agenda, and it is the same as the agenda of soc.motss. Roy Radow, : So does this counteract your *lie* that you claimed *I* had your : account cancelled? Darn, and I was hoping that *I* had managed to get his account canceled. I did sort of wonder if CCing all of my complaints about Fred's misuse of Panix to Panix's internet service provider had any effect... : I never asked for his account to be cancelled, nor for him to be : *censored*, but for his sysadmin to investigate the Chuckster's : vile usage of the internet. Oh, you're nicer than I am then. I asked that his account be terminated at once. Tom -- Homosexuals make the best friends because they care about you as a woman and are not jealous. They love you but don't try to screw up your head. -Bianca Jagger >From alt.censorship Fri Jul 7 10:20:49 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.mathworks.com!panix!not-for-mail From: sethb@panix.com (Seth Breidbart) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 6 Jul 1995 20:05:39 -0400 Organization: Society for the Promulgation of Cruelty to the Clueless Lines: 17 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3thtoj$eec@panix3.panix.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3te8hi$l0k@interport.net> <3teoii$4j8@sundog.tiac.net> <3tf4ae$122@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix3.panix.com Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307362 alt.censorship:56513 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32204 comp.org.eff.talk:57657 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6668 In article <3tf4ae$122@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, Carl M Kadie wrote: >donahue@omphalos.skepsis.com (Bob Donahue) writes: > >>On the other hand, I insist that the charter of the *.motss groups be >>respected. > >I hate viewpoint discrimination in the charters of unmoderated >newsgroups. I personally think that if I can say "X" in an unmoderated >forum, then someone use should be able to say "Not X". What if the charter says "Don't discuss X vs. Not X at all; those discussions belong in "? It seems perfectly reasonable to me to have a newsgroup in which to discuss techniques of using emacs and which prohibits arguments about emacs vs. vi. Seth >From alt.censorship Fri Jul 7 10:20:49 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!news.Cerritos.edu!news.Arizona.EDU!CS.Arizona.EDU!ruby.ucc.nau.edu!nauvax.ucc.nau.edu!dat From: dat@nauvax.ucc.nau.edu (Alan Thompson) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: RE: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 7 JUL 95 00:06:28 GMT Organization: Northern Arizona University Lines: 10 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <7JUL95.00062806@nauvax.ucc.nau.edu> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> Rod Swift (cub@iinet.com.au) wrote: >Oh, you're nicer than I am then. I asked that his account be terminated >at once. Likewise, I send messages to postmasters about such vitriolic messages. However, I want the postmaster to know what is going on as it may reflect the possibility of physical violence on the part of the poster. Closing said accounts remains in the purvue of the computer services for that organization and it may result in an undue curbing of free speech. >From alt.censorship Fri Jul 7 10:20:49 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sal!kadie From: kadie@sal.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M Kadie) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 7 Jul 1995 01:33:25 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 17 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3te8hi$l0k@interport.net> <3teoii$4j8@sundog.tiac.net> <3tf4ae$122@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3thtoj$eec@panix3.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sal.cs.uiuc.edu Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307381 alt.censorship:56519 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32208 comp.org.eff.talk:57659 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6676 sethb@panix.com (Seth Breidbart) writes: >What if the charter says "Don't discuss X vs. Not X at all; those >discussions belong in "? It seems perfectly >reasonable to me to have a newsgroup in which to discuss techniques of >using emacs and which prohibits arguments about emacs vs. vi. Could such a charter be enforced fairly? Or, would people who say "Emacs is the greatest" be ignored while people who say "Emacs is terrible" be reported to their sys admin? - Carl -- Carl Kadie -- I do not represent any organization or employer; this is just me. = Email: kadie@cs.uiuc.edu = = URL: >From alt.censorship Fri Jul 7 10:20:50 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!demon!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!soap.news.pipex.net!pipex!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.mathworks.com!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!netaxs.com!grendel From: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc,soc.motss Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Followup-To: alt.censorship Date: 7 Jul 1995 02:20:51 GMT Organization: lockheed lockheed martin marietta Lines: 20 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3ti5m3$s5f@netaxs.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3tg1b2$b68@blackice.winternet.com> <3tgg3m$9m2@interport.net> Reply-To: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) NNTP-Posting-Host: unix3.netaxs.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:56552 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32215 comp.org.eff.talk:57684 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6695 soc.motss:307471 Followups locked. Don't use broken Distribution: inet. Thanks. In article <3tgg3m$9m2@interport.net>, Fred Cherry (john1@interport.net) wrote: > >[NOTE: I have removed soc.motss from the Followup line.] > I have restored soc.motss to the newsgroup line. The thread started in > soc.motss, and that's where it should continue to be discussed. Actually, it started in soc.motss, alt.censorship, alt.current-events.net-abuse, comp.org.eff.talk, and news.admin.net-abuse.misc. Regardless of where a discussion starts, if it drifts that egregriously, it should be directed to a more appropriate venue. Whether this thread was appropriate for any of these newsgroups in the first place is an exercise left for those who can read newsgroup charters. -- Michael Handler Philadelphia, PA Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics >From alt.censorship Fri Jul 7 10:20:50 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!yarrina.connect.com.au!classic.iinet.com.au!not-for-mail From: cub@iinet.com.au (Rod Swift) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 7 Jul 1995 13:34:14 +0800 Organization: iiNET Technologies Lines: 34 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tih0m$arl@classic.iinet.com.au> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t7ptm$j20@sundog.tiac.net> <3te8hi$l0k@interport.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: classic.iinet.com.au X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #3 (NOV) Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307498 alt.censorship:56566 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32218 comp.org.eff.talk:57697 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6705 john1@interport.net (Fred Cherry) writes: >It might seem that soc.culture israel is an inappropriate newsgroup. >However, almost every time I post anything, Rod Swift, a homosexual neo- >nazi has something to say. I wish to show the people of Israel that there >are homosexual neo-nazis on the Internet. Well, why don't you go and *find* a real neo-Nazi, than try to make one. If I may be so bold to comment, the people on soc.culture.israel should be abhorred with your behaviour, which is akin to the witch hunt Hitler performed on Jewish *and* gay people. My statements are as follows: The neo_Nazi movements in certain parts of the world are a threat to the freedoms of millions of people in the world should these groups attan a position of power. The neo-Nazi movements employ the tactic of editing history to remove such real events as the holocaust of the Hitler Nazi regime in Germany. This editing of history is unconscionable -- the holocaust is a very real and tragic event which showed the ultimate in inhumane treatment of groups of people by the fascist regime of Hitler and his henchmen. The Nazi movement is as evil today as it was 50 years ago, and still must be eradicated for the ensured freedom of all. [Note to all: if I were a *real* neo-Nazi, wouldn't I be making holocaust apologetics, and painting swatstikas everywhere?] Rod -- | ... ..... | E-mail: cub@iinet.com.au | ******* | | + + + + + + + + | http://nether.net/~rod/html/ | ***** | | * * * * * * * * | | *** | | R o d S w i f t |The Christian Right is neither| * | >From misc.test Fri Jul 7 10:20:50 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!yarrina.connect.com.au!classic.iinet.com.au!not-for-mail From: cub@iinet.com.au (Rod Swift) Newsgroups: misc.test Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 7 Jul 1995 13:35:55 +0800 Organization: iiNET Technologies Lines: 25 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tih3r$au6@classic.iinet.com.au> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t7jgl$98p@netaxs.com> <3t9apa$3s6@interport.net> <3tgo7f$25b@classic.iinet.com.au> <3thoo9$b85@chaos.dac.neu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: classic.iinet.com.au X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #3 (NOV) tfarrell@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Thomas Farrell) writes: >: So does this counteract your *lie* that you claimed *I* had your >: account cancelled? >Darn, and I was hoping that *I* had managed to get his account canceled. >I did sort of wonder if CCing all of my complaints about Fred's misuse >of Panix to Panix's internet service provider had any effect... Fred is a net-fool. a Kook. >: I never asked for his account to be cancelled, nor for him to be >: *censored*, but for his sysadmin to investigate the Chuckster's >: vile usage of the internet. >Oh, you're nicer than I am then. I asked that his account be terminated >at once. I wonder if that makes you a "neo-Nazi" too, Tom. Watch out, Freddy'll get ya -- | ... ..... | E-mail: cub@iinet.com.au | ******* | | + + + + + + + + | http://nether.net/~rod/html/ | ***** | | * * * * * * * * | | *** | | R o d S w i f t |The Christian Right is neither| * | >From alt.censorship Fri Jul 7 10:20:51 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!yarrina.connect.com.au!classic.iinet.com.au!not-for-mail From: cub@iinet.com.au (Rod Swift) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 7 Jul 1995 13:55:12 +0800 Organization: iiNET Technologies Lines: 112 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tii80$big@classic.iinet.com.au> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t7ptm$j20@sundog.tiac.net> <3te8hi$l0k@interport.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: classic.iinet.com.au X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #3 (NOV) Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307500 alt.censorship:56568 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32220 comp.org.eff.talk:57699 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6707 To: john1@interport.net (Fred Cherry) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 12:41:50 +0800 (WST) Cc: cub@iinet.com.au, root@interport.net, chris@dfw.net In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cherry" at Jul 6, 95 10:44:25 am > > Dear sirs, > > > > Could you please instruct your user, Fred Cherry, to immediately > > desist posting defamatory statements about myself to any and all > > public newsgroups on the Internet. > > > > His statement that I am a "homosexual Neo-Nazi" is a deliberate > > mistruth that is being constantly crossposted by him on > > repetetive occasions to defame me. > > > > I am not, nor have I ever been, a supporter of the Nazi movement, > > Nazi Party or any other socialist or authoritarian regime. > > > > In fact, I am a strong supporter of the Jewish community, and a > > critic and outspoken opponent of the atrocities which occured in > > Nazi Germany during the Hitler era. Mr Chewrry has been advised > > of this on numerous occasions by myself and others, yet refuses > > to desist from posting his lies. > > > > Should Mr Cherry's defamatory postings not cease forthwith, I > > will have no other option but to investigate legal action against > > both Mr Cherry and your company as publishers of the statement. > > > > Thank you for your time > > Rod Swift > > -- > > | ... ..... | E-mail: cub@iinet.com.au | ******* | > > | + + + + + + + + | http://nether.net/~rod/html/ | ***** | > > | * * * * * * * * | | *** | > > | R o d S w i f t |The Christian Right is neither| * | > > > > Please look at the following. It speaks for itself. Rod Swift stands > revealed BY HIS OWN STATEMENT as a neo-nazi. I note Mr Chery is not honest enough to post the *whole* context, nor the *whole* thread prior tothis, onor the scathing comments from Jews on the net criti9cising his misinterpretation of this sentence, nor my repeated condemnations of his interpretation of the sentence, nor my condemnation of the facft he didn't even email me to clarify the statement, nor my public apology if it was misconstrued by some to be pro-Nazi (when it in fact was not). Besides all this, it is not proof that I am a neo-Nazi at all! The request for action against this user stands, sytem administrators. Please request your user to cease posting lies about me, and misconstrued and out-of-context statements. The comment is, in context, ,an analysis of the inhumane treatment of gay peopole, and the insanity of Hitler. I made the statement earlier that Hitler (not me) was insane and would have taken examples of the Jewish community and used them to *justify* his insanity. (corollary, this is exactly what Fred Cherry aims to do when he exemplifies certain members of the homosexual community as being typical of the gay community as a whole -- even resorting to lies to do so). In a similar fashion, I explained that some of the behaviours of another user, Mikhail Zeleny, may have just been typical of the type of behaviour that Hitler (not me) would use to justify the holocaust and the extermination of millions of Jews. In fact, I was supporting the Jewish community, their ordeal in having to deal with the horrific effect of the Holocaust, anbd reminding people that classifying all people by the actions of a few in that group leads to the authoritarian control,, disenfranchising and destruction of the people targetted. Fred Cherry, if he was an honest person, would understand that they first came for the gays, then the Jews. He should be sympathetic that right wing elements still call for the extermination of gay people. I would like to know why he thinks I do not support the Jewish community and their past plight, given that I'm part of another gorup that was persecuted and destroyed at the hands of Hitler and *other* regimes in the past and present.... Again, Fred, I challenge you to be intellectually honest, rather than bankrupt, and admit that you have been wrong, and are continuing to be wrong, in the opinions you present, and the characterisation you make about me. Else, you are no better than the liar and murderer Hitler, who lied, cheated, mischaracterised, and scorned the innocent people he eventually went on to mass-murder. Yours Rod P.S. Don't most neo-Nazis practice the age-old art of holocaust apologism, something I find abhorrent and a disgusting abuse of documented history? Don't most neo-Nazis get a kick out of being proud of their fascist father figure of Hitler and his henchmen, yet another thing I find abhorrent and disgusting? Yep, you're *absolutely correct* Fred. If I'm a neo-Nazi, then you aree a mass-murdering Hitler-following thug! -- | ... ..... | E-mail: cub@iinet.com.au | ******* | | + + + + + + + + | http://nether.net/~rod/html/ | ***** | | * * * * * * * * | | *** | | R o d S w i f t |The Christian Right is neither| * | >From alt.censorship Fri Jul 7 10:20:51 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx10.cs.du.edu!not-for-mail From: anon2c9e@nyx10.cs.du.edu (henry) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 7 Jul 1995 01:00:34 -0600 Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci. Lines: 67 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tim2i$lvl@nyx10.cs.du.edu> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3teoii$4j8@sundog.tiac.net> <3tf4ae$122@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3thtoj$eec@panix3.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: nyx10.cs.du.edu Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307466 alt.censorship:56548 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32214 comp.org.eff.talk:57681 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6693 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In article <3thtoj$eec@panix3.panix.com>, Seth Breidbart wrote: >Carl M Kadie wrote: >>donahue@omphalos.skepsis.com (Bob Donahue) writes: >>>On the other hand, I insist that the charter of the *.motss groups be >>>respected. insist away. it won't change the reality of the situation, which is that any unmoderated newsgroup is going to end up with annoying loons and bigots in it. if you're really loud about it and you can gather enough blatantly offensive garbage, you can sometimes get someone's account yanked, but any sufficiently determined net kook will eventually come back, just like bad crabgrass. >>I hate viewpoint discrimination in the charters of unmoderated >>newsgroups. I personally think that if I can say "X" in an unmoderated >>forum, then someone use should be able to say "Not X". >What if the charter says "Don't discuss X vs. Not X at all; those >discussions belong in "? It seems perfectly a lot of newsgroups do have policies like this, and if a large enough portion is willing to make noise, it can be enforced on a case-by-case basis by flaming the crisp out of anyone who dares violate policy. other newsgroups will faqbomb irritating off-charter noise-makers. still, the genuine kook is immune to flames and mailbombs. >reasonable to me to have a newsgroup in which to discuss techniques of >using emacs and which prohibits arguments about emacs vs. vi. nevertheless, you wouldn't even think of forbidding certain discussions unless they did, in fact, regularly recur to the point of nausea. the same reasons which caused you to, say, forbid emacs vs. vi discussions and put it in the faq are the reasons which will lead to clueless newbies and kooks going ahead and discussing it anyway. i think that except in moderated groups, starting content-based filtering of messages is bound to cause an outcry of 'censorship' among net.loons, and for once they might have a point. >Seth h - -- SUPPORT THE DENNIS ERLICH DEFENSE FUND! READ ALT.RELIGION.SCIENTOLOGY! Send checks to MORRISON & FOERSTER, 345 California Street, San Francisco, California 94104-2675. Telephone: (415) 677-7000 Fax: (415) 677-7522 Contact People: Carla Oakley and Katie Walsh. MAKE SURE YOU LABEL YOUR CHECK "DENNIS ERLICH DEFENSE FUND". Checks should be made out to Morrison & Foerster. For verification of this info, email ssteele@eff.org (Shari Steele) SAVE THE REV! [ For Public Key: finger anon2c9e@nyx10.cs.du.edu ] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6 iQCVAwUBL/zRXtOUGUXWNqytAQH4EQQAqjKCWuii1L6EwO28gzDQ/TcMtp8KYeHK qKOeXLb1lekRJlofZSUmgQe2SuPUE05srkU5jRRZtkC5j+RibYwOEVwmRaX2lsK5 ku8CsQlmoIghcs6N4pxoEPakwqxjX16BJaEHHMja66QlN40xyGWUS/12kimqR5YQ em1cDvI8rSY= =rnuA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >From alt.censorship Fri Jul 7 10:20:51 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.nic.surfnet.nl!sun4nl!redwdnl!not-for-mail From: rob@redwood.nl (Rob J. Nauta) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 7 Jul 1995 09:16:19 +0200 Organization: Redwood Nederland B.V. Lines: 20 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tin03$mgb@redwdnl.redwood.nl> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3te8hi$l0k@interport.net> <3teoii$4j8@sundog.tiac.net> <3tf4ae$122@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3thtoj$eec@panix3.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: redwdnl.redwood.nl Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307487 alt.censorship:56559 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32216 comp.org.eff.talk:57689 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6699 sethb@panix.com (Seth Breidbart) writes: >What if the charter says "Don't discuss X vs. Not X at all; those >discussions belong in "? It seems perfectly >reasonable to me to have a newsgroup in which to discuss techniques of >using emacs and which prohibits arguments about emacs vs. vi. Many .advocacy groups have been formed to channel the useless discussions like emacs vs. vi, atari st vs. amiga discussions out of the groups with a serious charter, indeed. Doesn't always work though, every linux group seems to have eternal discussions on how evil Microsoft is, and why you should be using TeX instead of Word, and that you really don't need a gui word processor, and that all users should be programmers, then they'd learn TeX in a day and wouldn't want a gui word processor and on and on and on... Rob -- *-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~ Rob J. Nautarob@redwood.nl NOTE: my opinions are strictly my own and not those of my employer >From alt.censorship Fri Jul 7 10:20:51 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!hookup!hudson.lm.com!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!netaxs.com!grendel From: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 7 Jul 1995 09:55:09 GMT Organization: lockheed lockheed martin marietta Lines: 17 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tj09t$nrb@netaxs.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3te8hi$l0k@interport.net> <3teoii$4j8@sundog.tiac.net> <3tf4ae$122@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3thtoj$eec@panix3.panix.com> <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> Reply-To: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) NNTP-Posting-Host: unix3.netaxs.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307496 alt.censorship:56564 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32217 comp.org.eff.talk:57696 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6702 In article <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, Carl M Kadie (kadie@sal.cs.uiuc.edu) wrote: > Could such a charter be enforced fairly? Huh? What do you mean "enforced fairly", kemosabe? > Or, would people who say "Emacs is the greatest" be ignored while > people who say "Emacs is terrible" be reported to their sys admin? Since our hypothetical newsgroup is a discussion forum about how to use EMACS, I'd imagine "Emacs is the greatest" wouldn't provoke much response, while "Emacs is terrible" would start a minor flamewar (and those nasty letters to the sysadmin). So, yes, that would happen. But there's a price for acting childishly, you know? -- Michael Handler Philadelphia, PA Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics >From alt.censorship Sat Jul 8 11:02:00 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!news.mathworks.com!panix!not-for-mail From: sethb@panix.com (Seth Breidbart) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 7 Jul 1995 11:31:46 -0400 Organization: Society for the Promulgation of Cruelty to the Clueless Lines: 29 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3thtoj$eec@panix3.panix.com> <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tj09t$nrb@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix3.panix.com Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307536 alt.censorship:56586 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32222 comp.org.eff.talk:57714 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6717 In article <3tj09t$nrb@netaxs.com>, Michael Handler wrote: >In article <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, >Carl M Kadie (kadie@sal.cs.uiuc.edu) wrote: >> Could such a charter be enforced fairly? >Huh? What do you mean "enforced fairly", kemosabe? Of course it _could_. Whether or not it _would_ is up to the people involved, as usual. >> Or, would people who say "Emacs is the greatest" be ignored while >> people who say "Emacs is terrible" be reported to their sys admin? Actually, someone who said "Emacs v.2.5.37.144 is brain-dead" would probably start an on-charter discussion. >Since our hypothetical newsgroup is a discussion forum about how to use >EMACS, I'd imagine "Emacs is the greatest" wouldn't provoke much response, >while "Emacs is terrible" would start a minor flamewar (and those nasty >letters to the sysadmin). Which would probably be sent not only to the sysadmin of the person who started it, but also to those of all the people who followed up. > So, yes, that would happen. But there's a price >for acting childishly, you know? Unfortunately, on Usenet, it's too low. Seth >From alt.censorship Sat Jul 8 11:02:00 1995 Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!drahcirr From: drahcirr@netcom.com (Rich Gibson) Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Message-ID: Followup-To: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3te8hi$l0k@interport.net> <3teoii$4j8@sundog.tiac.net> <3tf4ae$122@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3thtoj$eec@panix3.panix.com> <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tj09t$nrb@netaxs.com> Distribution: inet Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 16:51:33 GMT Lines: 37 Sender: drahcirr@netcom14.netcom.com Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307563 alt.censorship:56596 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32223 comp.org.eff.talk:57721 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6728 Michael Handler (grendel@netaxs.com) wrote: : In article <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, : Carl M Kadie (kadie@sal.cs.uiuc.edu) wrote: : > Could such a charter be enforced fairly? : Huh? What do you mean "enforced fairly", kemosabe? : > Or, would people who say "Emacs is the greatest" be ignored while : > people who say "Emacs is terrible" be reported to their sys admin? : Since our hypothetical newsgroup is a discussion forum about how to use : EMACS, I'd imagine "Emacs is the greatest" wouldn't provoke much response, : while "Emacs is terrible" would start a minor flamewar (and those nasty : letters to the sysadmin). So, yes, that would happen. But there's a price : for acting childishly, you know? It sure seems to me that in this instance Fred Cherry is totally right, and the soc.motss'ers are being total assholes. This quote is a pretty good example, in which you clearly validate Carl's point that viewpoint based charters are suspect. How about this for an idea, if you don't like Fred's posts IGNORE THEM. Yes, Fred is an ass. So what! Lots of people are assholes. It sure seems like all this 'get his account pulled because he won't obey the charter' bullshit is far far worse than anything Fred Cherry could _ever_ do. As for Rod Swift, what a jerk! "Oh poor me, a net.loon has misconstrued my posts, I better do something!" Come on! Are you a total fucking loser, or what? -- Rich Gibson drahcirr@netcom.com [\] PADI DM Candidate -------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you can't trust me with a choice, how can you trust me with an Hawaiian pizza? >From alt.censorship Sat Jul 8 11:02:00 1995 Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!drahcirr From: drahcirr@netcom.com (Rich Gibson) Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Message-ID: Followup-To: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3thtoj$eec@panix3.panix.com> <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tj09t$nrb@netaxs.com> <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com> Distribution: inet Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 16:54:40 GMT Lines: 23 Sender: drahcirr@netcom14.netcom.com Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307564 alt.censorship:56597 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32224 comp.org.eff.talk:57722 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6729 Seth Breidbart (sethb@panix.com) wrote: : > So, yes, that would happen. But there's a price : >for acting childishly, you know? : Unfortunately, on Usenet, it's too low. Seth, Oh yes, you are right. There must be a _price_ to pay if you are childish. In fact, the Soc.motss'ers are paying that price because they are too stupid to ignore Fred Cherry. Actually, I think they like his posts as they give them a good straw man to rail against. Really, who is worse, the bigot who posts in soc.motss, or the idiots who reply (and reply, and reply). Fred Cherry is just one nut. He does not have the power to disrupt soc.motss _unless_ the other posters give him that power. -- Rich Gibson drahcirr@netcom.com [\] PADI DM Candidate -------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you can't trust me with a choice, how can you trust me with an Hawaiian pizza? >From alt.censorship Sat Jul 8 11:02:00 1995 Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsie.dmc.com!spdcc!fj From: fj@spdcc.com (FJ!!) Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Message-ID: Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tj09t$nrb@netaxs.com> <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com> Distribution: inet Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 18:01:06 GMT Lines: 16 Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307602 alt.censorship:56612 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32227 comp.org.eff.talk:57733 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6736 In article <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com>, Seth Breidbart wrote: >Actually, someone who said "Emacs v.2.5.37.144 is brain-dead" would >probably start an on-charter discussion. I wish Carl had chosen something like "a good nigger is a dead nigger vs. asbolish apartheid" instead of a clean, socio-political implication-free "emacs vs vi". It would have made the articles following that a lot grittier to read. We are talking about real hatred and real safe space here, not some squabbles about programs. Try keeping your analogies relevant to that before anybody ever tells us that we should let everybody post everything to every newsgroup and that there are no appropriate places for certain expressions. FJ!! >From alt.censorship Sat Jul 8 11:02:00 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!superdec.uni.uiuc.edu!tskirvin From: tskirvin@superdec.uni.uiuc.edu (Tim Skirvin) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 7 Jul 1995 19:34:51 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 11 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tk28r$jqa@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tj09t$nrb@netaxs.com> <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: superdec.uni.uiuc.edu Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307619 alt.censorship:56620 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32229 comp.org.eff.talk:57738 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6739 fj@spdcc.com (FJ!!) writes: >I wish Carl had chosen something like "a good nigger is a dead nigger vs. >asbolish apartheid" instead of a clean, socio-political implication-free >"emacs vs vi". I guess you've never seen the emacs/vi flamewars. (RFD: talk.politics.vi) - Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@uiuc.edu) >From alt.censorship Sat Jul 8 11:02:00 1995 Path: news.interport.net!interport!not-for-mail From: john1@interport.net (Fred Cherry) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 7 Jul 1995 15:36:42 -0400 Organization: Johns & Call Girls United Against Repression Lines: 133 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tk2ca$p12@interport.net> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t8skr$31p@interport.net> <3t9336$kaa@panix2.panix.com> <3t950c$cak_001@dialup.access.net> <3tb35k$c6t@panix2.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: interport.net X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #4 (NOV) Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307623 alt.censorship:56622 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32230 comp.org.eff.talk:57740 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6740 In Message-ID: <3tb35k$c6t@panix2.panix.com> Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 4 Jul 1995 05:55:00 -0400 vicric@panix.com (Vicki Richman) wrote: >Fred was one of the founders of the League for Sexual >Freedom, which predated Stonewall by half a dozen years. The >group supported gay rights. (Lesbians called themselves gay >back then.) That is not correct. I was launched by Paul Krassner, editor and publisher of THE REALIST. In issue # 48 of that magazine Krassner published an item that I was founding an organization called The Committee To Legalize Prostitution. The distinction between legalization and decriminalization was not clear at the time. I actually meant decriminalization, even though I said legalization. Krassner also launched Madalyn Murray, who went on to found The Society of Seperationists, the number # 1 Atheist group in the United States. A couple of months later I was invited to join the New York City League for Sexual Freedom. The League for Sexual Freedom was formed in '63. I joined the League in '64. Our greatest publicity triumph occurred on 8/23/64 at a demonstration in front of the Women's House of Detention, which no longer exists. I was the central figure of that demonstration. There was a story in the New York Daily News that took up half a page and had my photograph, which appeared on page 16 of that paper's edition of 8/24/64. The VILLAGE VOICE had the story and my picture starting on page 1 in its issue of 8/27/64. I appeared three times on the Morton Downey Jr. talk show in '87 and '88 as a spokesman for decriminalization. I sued the State of New York for a declaratory judgment that the laws criminalizing prostitution are unconstitutional go to a law library and look up the case of Cherry v. Koch, 491 N.Y.S. 2d 934 & Cherry v. Koch, 514 N.Y.S. 2d 30. You know, I wasn't always a homophobe. here is how it started. By the way, I have posted this information previously. You probably didn't see it, because, at that time, I had not learned the art of crossposting. Here's what homosexuals did to me. In 1964 the NYC League for Sexual Freedom was a coalition of people with ALL sexual orientations. We did demonstrations on various subjects. One of the demonstrations we did was the first demonstration ever held in the United States for homosexual rights. I have documentation for that. There is a book published by Alyson Publications of Boston titled: THE FIRST GAY POPE AND OTHER RECORDS, by Lynne Yamaguchi Fletcher. The demonstration we held is mentioned on page 66, although the book has a couple of details wrong. I also have documentation that I participated in that demonstration. You have undoubtedly seen copies of the homosexual magazine THE ADVOCATE on your neighborhood newsstand. In 1972 it was a homosexual newspaper. On page one of issue 96 dated 10/11/72, one of the headlines read WATCH OUT WORLD, THE PERVERTS ARE TAKING OVER! The story, by Randy Wicker (the same person who organized the demonstration the League for Sexual Freedom held for homosexual rights). Starts: "BROOKLYN--A straight man who participated in a 1964 demonstration against the Army's anti-homosexual policies refuses to say how many copies he has mailed of a "monster postcard"........" Anyway, after this homosexual rights demonstration, the homosexuals in the League elected a lesbian feminist of the Andrea Dworkin persuasion to head the League. She then announced that as a lesbian feminist, she was absolutely opposed to decriminalization of prostitution, and that there would be no further demonstrations favoring the cause of decriminalization of prostitution. That was enough in itself to force me out. There was something else. The League started to involve itself with advocating homosexual child-molesting. They had the League's literature published for free in exchange for an add in the League's literature in behalf of the "International Journal of Greek Love." The name J.Z. Eglinton popped up. I have forgotten exactly how. Either he was to speak at a League meeting or something else. Now, if you read the alt.sex newsgroup, you will notice that the topic: "pedophilia info" keeps popping up. Roy Radow a proponent of homosexual child-molesting, gets some stooge to ask about "pedophilia" and then Radow, a member of the North American Man/Boy Love Association (NAMBLA), proceeds to spout the NAMBLA propaganda. Among other things, he recommends the book: "Greek Love by J.Z. Eglinton. Oliver Layton Press, New York, 1964." That's the SAME Oliver Layton Press that was publishing the "International Journal of Greek Love" in '65. That fact was enough to drive out any heterosexuals who weren't driven out by the League' changed stance on prostitution. That last time I posted this material people told me that I shouldn't have become a homophobe because of one lesbian. It was NOT one lesbian. It was the entire Mattachine Society. The NY City Mattachine Society, the first homosexual rights organization on the East Coast of the United States, sent those homosexuals to take over the NY City League for Sexual Freedom. This lesbian was elected to head the NYC League for Sexual Freedom for the purpose of making the League into a front organization of the Mattachine Society. Furthermore, at that time, the Mattachine Society was the ONLY homosexual organization on the East Coast of the United States. Ever since that time I have been a homophobe. In fact, my homophobia has reached such depths of depravity that when I go to a drug store, instead of asking for Ben-Gay, I ask for Ben-Fag. However, now that Vicki Richman has come to my defense, I will have to moderate my tone. >Fred supports the right of lesbian, male, and transgendered >prostitutes to conduct business openly and legally. He >regularly joins the Pride March with that message. I do NOT regularly join the anual Gay Pride March with a pro-prostitution message. The march didn't used to allow such a message. The march used to have anti-prostitution messages. Specifically, the march used to have a group called MEN AGAINST SEXISM. This group is headed by John Stoltenberg, Andrea Dworkin's stooge. This group opposes heterosexual pornography and opposes heterosexual prostitution. This year there was no such group in the march. I was watching on the sidelines to see what organizations were marching. All of a sudden I see Priscilla Alexander marching along with a COYOTE (Call Off Your Old Tired Ethics) banner. So, I marched along with that group for a few blocks. >He was a volunteer observer in a civil-disobedience campaign >in support of prostitutes against the New York Police >Department. I covered it for Majority Report, the feminist >and largely lesbian biweekly. Many of the participants were >lesbians. (In fact, that may be why the demonstration >failed to gain a single arrest. The cops took one look at us >in heels and makeup, and laughed.) I don't believe that this is correct. The demonstration consisted of women dressed up to appear to be prostitutes. When they were approached, they would hand out literature in opposition to the newly-enacted loitering law. There was nothing illegal about this. Some of the women looked quite attractive to me. If I hadn't known that they weren't prostitutes, I would have propositioned at least one them. I believe that the police were informed about this demonstration and were very careful not to arrest any of the demonstrators. ************************************************************************* Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves. - Lincoln john1@interport.net, a.k.a. themadmailer@bix.com >From alt.censorship Sat Jul 8 11:02:00 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.primenet.com!lippard From: lippard@Primenet.Com (James J. Lippard) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 7 Jul 1995 19:53:21 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)395-1010 Lines: 13 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tk3bh$hld@dump.primenet.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3t950c$cak_001@dialup.access.net> <3tb35k$c6t@panix2.panix.com> <3tk2ca$p12@interport.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: usr4.primenet.com Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307629 alt.censorship:56623 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32231 comp.org.eff.talk:57742 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6742 In article <3tk2ca$p12@interport.net>, Fred Cherry wrote: >I said legalization. Krassner also launched Madalyn Murray, who went on to >found The Society of Seperationists, the number # 1 Atheist group in the >United States. #1 by what measure? Not by number of members, effectiveness, honesty, or reliability. The Freedom From Religion Foundation is vastly superior to the Society of Separationists (d/b/a American Atheists) on all of these points. -- Jim Lippard lippard@(primenet.com primeweb.com ediacara.org skeptic.com) Phoenix, Arizona http://www.primenet.com/~lippard/ PGP Fingerprint: 35 65 66 9F 71 FE 50 57 35 09 0F F6 14 D0 C6 04 >From alt.censorship Sat Jul 8 11:02:00 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!psgrain!nntp.teleport.com!nntp.teleport.com!not-for-mail From: jondoe@teleport.com (Jon Doe) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 7 Jul 1995 13:51:14 -0700 Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016 Lines: 7 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tk6o2$8rk@kelly.teleport.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tj09t$nrb@netaxs.com> <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com> <3tk28r$jqa@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: kelly.teleport.com Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307639 alt.censorship:56629 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32232 comp.org.eff.talk:57744 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6745 I think people that have a legit complaint should be allowed to complaine. Sorry about my spelling errors. Jon Doe -- Be Excellent to Each Other >From alt.censorship Sat Jul 8 11:02:00 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntp.montagar.com!davidc From: davidc@montagar.com (David L. Cathey) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Message-ID: <1995Jul7.161019.20629@montagar> Date: 7 Jul 95 16:10:19 CDT References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> Distribution: inet Organization: Montagar Software Concepts, Plano TX Lines: 17 Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307645 alt.censorship:56633 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32233 comp.org.eff.talk:57746 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6747 In article , fj@spdcc.com (FJ!!) writes: > In article <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com>, > Seth Breidbart wrote: >>Actually, someone who said "Emacs v.2.5.37.144 is brain-dead" would >>probably start an on-charter discussion. > > I wish Carl had chosen something like "a good nigger is a dead nigger vs. > asbolish apartheid" instead of a clean, socio-political implication-free > "emacs vs vi". Unix vs. OpenVMS? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - David L. Cathey |Inet: davidc@montagar.com Montagar Software Concepts |UUCP: ...!montagar!davidc P. O. Box 260776 |Fone: (214)-578-5036 Plano TX 75026-0772 |http://www.montagar.com/~davidc/ >From alt.censorship Sat Jul 8 11:02:00 1995 Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!drahcirr From: drahcirr@netcom.com (Rich Gibson) Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Message-ID: Followup-To: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tj09t$nrb@netaxs.com> <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com> Distribution: inet Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 21:17:50 GMT Lines: 30 Sender: drahcirr@netcom9.netcom.com Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307652 alt.censorship:56634 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32234 comp.org.eff.talk:57749 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6755 FJ!! (fj@spdcc.com) wrote: : In article <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com>, : Seth Breidbart wrote: : >Actually, someone who said "Emacs v.2.5.37.144 is brain-dead" would : >probably start an on-charter discussion. : I wish Carl had chosen something like "a good nigger is a dead nigger vs. : asbolish apartheid" instead of a clean, socio-political implication-free : "emacs vs vi". : It would have made the articles following that a lot grittier to read. : We are talking about real hatred and real safe space here, not some : squabbles about programs. Try keeping your analogies relevant to that : before anybody ever tells us that we should let everybody post everything : to every newsgroup and that there are no appropriate places for certain : expressions. : FJ!! Real hatred? Sure, like the soc.motss'ers when faced with that which offends? 'Real safe space?' The only way to create a 'safe space' is to be grounded in your own self. You cannot create a safe spot by claiming a bit of electronic turf and demanding the expulsion of your enemies. Besides, the whole idea that you need a 'safe space' on the net is ludicrous. Has Fred Cherry tried to do anything to you, other than use words to disagree with your positions? -- Rich Gibson drahcirr@netcom.com [\] PADI DM Candidate -------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you can't trust me with a choice, how can you trust me with an Hawaiian pizza? >From alt.censorship Sat Jul 8 11:02:00 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!chronos.synopsys.com!news.synopsys.com!jbuck From: jbuck@synopsys.com (Joe Buck) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 7 Jul 1995 22:42:10 GMT Organization: Synopsys Inc., Mountain View, CA 94043-4033 Lines: 41 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tkd82$9pa@hermes.synopsys.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tf4ae$122@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3thtoj$eec@panix3.panix.com> <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: deerslayer.synopsys.com Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307794 alt.censorship:56723 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32248 comp.org.eff.talk:57797 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6789 sethb@panix.com (Seth Breidbart) writes: >>What if the charter says "Don't discuss X vs. Not X at all; those >>discussions belong in "? It seems perfectly >>reasonable to me to have a newsgroup in which to discuss techniques of >>using emacs and which prohibits arguments about emacs vs. vi. kadie@sal.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M Kadie) writes: >Could such a charter be enforced fairly? Or, would people who say >"Emacs is the greatest" be ignored while people who say "Emacs is >terrible" be reported to their sys admin? Yes, this sort of "unfair enforcement" does go on. That's mainly because in a technical group dedicated to X, a posting saying "X is great" generates no responses, while one saying "X sucks, Y is better" generates flame wars and sidetracks the group. That's why you'll see complaints for one and not the other, because the situation is not symmetric except maybe for those who think like lawyers. Charters should be thought of as declarations of intent to keep things on topic. If we don't care about keeping things on topic then we can have just one big group. But this isn't a legal matter. "Reporting someone to their sys admin" is simply free speech, even when the complaint may be unjustified. Sure, many such complaints sound much like "Mommy, mommy, Billy said a bad word on comp.foo" and are sent to the bit bucket by most admins. Usenet has traditionally been a cooperative anarchy governed by custom and netiquette. If you violate people's perceptions of such, you'll get flamed. It is my free speech right to object loudly to any posting that I feel like objecting to. Unfortunately some providers *are* effectively turning charters into laws, as in "your service agreement says you won't post off-charter postings", which encourages lawyer-like, rather than common-sense, readings of "the rules". -- -- Joe Buck (not speaking for Synopsys, Inc) Anagrams for "information superhighway":Enormous hairy pig with fan A rough whimper of insanity >From soc.motss Sat Jul 8 11:02:00 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!warp.cris.com!not-for-mail From: Ayana@voyager.cris.com (Ayana) Newsgroups: soc.motss Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 7 Jul 1995 20:05:13 -0400 Organization: Fishing On The Net Lines: 39 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tki3p$9fa@voyager.cris.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tfe1u$j4q@sundog.tiac.net> <3tgnju$hdm@interport.net> <3thium$1pm@cmcl2.NYU.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: voyager-fddi.cris.com In article <3thium$1pm@cmcl2.NYU.EDU>, David W. Fenton wrote: : :It makes responding to him an act of charity really, because a response is :an acknowledgement of his existence, an "intellectual" engagement with :him. If we really want Cherry to leave us alone, we should just never :respond to him, but simply post blank responses with soc.motss removed :from the followups. This would be the ultimate cruelty, the most potent :criticism, because it would remove him to the realm of a minor annoyance, :much like we bat away a housefly when it buzzes past our faces. Filthy as :that housefly may be, we don't get all exercized over it, we just shoo it :out the window. : :Now, Fred -- are you reading this? : Might I make one small alteration to your suggestion ? What about posting that followup to every group *but* soc.motss ? Since Fred doesn't read here anyway, he'll still see the response, but **the rest of us won't**. I have gotten tired of reading posts by people who usually have something worthwhile to say, only to find that they're still responding to some jerk whose brief appearance here has already been too long. It may be improper netiquette (I'm appreciative of email hints here, folks), but I have started posting responses with soc.motss trimmed from both the Newsgroups: line and also the Followups: line. I don't really know if it's helped, since I'm not reading the other groups, but it can't have hurt, IMNSHO. Ayana, whose patience has never been one of her virtues -- ayana@cris.com Ayana Craven Still... the odds fall sweet in favor to an open heart. - Ferron >From alt.censorship Sat Jul 8 11:02:00 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!warp.cris.com!not-for-mail From: Ayana@voyager.cris.com (Ayana) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 7 Jul 1995 20:10:46 -0400 Organization: Fishing On The Net Lines: 37 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tkie6$9qn@voyager.cris.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tf4ae$122@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3thtoj$eec@panix3.panix.com> <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: voyager-fddi.cris.com Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:56675 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32239 comp.org.eff.talk:57774 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6772 In article <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, Carl M Kadie wrote: :sethb@panix.com (Seth Breidbart) writes: : :>What if the charter says "Don't discuss X vs. Not X at all; those :>discussions belong in "? It seems perfectly :>reasonable to me to have a newsgroup in which to discuss techniques of :>using emacs and which prohibits arguments about emacs vs. vi. : :Could such a charter be enforced fairly? Or, would people who say :"Emacs is the greatest" be ignored while people who say "Emacs is :terrible" be reported to their sys admin? : In a group which exists for discussing emacs techniques, anybody who posted either one is probably going to get ignored or flamed. Can you really not understand the difference between discussing aspects of something vs. discussing its value ? Let's try a simple example : a group on oatmeal cookie recipes. We have a dozen posts that give different recipes, and one that says "Eeew ! Oatmeal cookies are gross !", and another that says "Hey, I *live* for oatmeal cookies !". Can you see the difference between the dozen postings and the other 2 ? Now, try to *generalize* that concept :-) Ayana -- ayana@cris.com Ayana Craven Still... the odds fall sweet in favor to an open heart. - Ferron >From alt.censorship Sat Jul 8 11:02:01 1995 Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!library.ucla.edu!info.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!drahcirr From: drahcirr@netcom.com (Rich Gibson) Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Message-ID: Followup-To: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tf4ae$122@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3thtoj$eec@panix3.panix.com> <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tkie6$9qn@voyager.cris.com> Distribution: inet Date: Sat, 8 Jul 1995 01:53:21 GMT Lines: 20 Sender: drahcirr@netcom17.netcom.com Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:56678 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32240 comp.org.eff.talk:57777 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6774 Ayana (Ayana@voyager.cris.com) wrote: : Can you really not understand the difference between discussing : aspects of something vs. discussing its value ? : Let's try a simple example : a group on oatmeal cookie recipes. : We have a dozen posts that give different recipes, and one that : says "Eeew ! Oatmeal cookies are gross !", and another that says : "Hey, I *live* for oatmeal cookies !". : Can you see the difference between the dozen postings and the other 2 ? : Now, try to *generalize* that concept :-) How about just ignore it...no that what be to easy. -- Rich Gibson drahcirr@netcom.com [\] PADI DM Candidate -------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you can't trust me with a choice, how can you trust me with an Hawaiian pizza? >From soc.motss Sat Jul 8 11:02:01 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!warp.cris.com!not-for-mail From: Ayana@voyager.cris.com (Ayana) Newsgroups: soc.motss Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 7 Jul 1995 22:24:52 -0400 Organization: Seekers of Truth, Light, and Decent Documentation Lines: 28 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tkq9k$lab@voyager.cris.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <1995Jul7.161019.20629@montagar> NNTP-Posting-Host: voyager-fddi.cris.com In article <1995Jul7.161019.20629@montagar>, David L. Cathey wrote: :In article , fj@spdcc.com (FJ!!) writes: :> In article <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com>, :> Seth Breidbart wrote: :>>Actually, someone who said "Emacs v.2.5.37.144 is brain-dead" would :>>probably start an on-charter discussion. :> :> I wish Carl had chosen something like "a good nigger is a dead nigger vs. :> asbolish apartheid" instead of a clean, socio-political implication-free :> "emacs vs vi". : :Unix vs. OpenVMS? : No contest !! Ayana, who spent 7 hours today trying to decipher HP Unix without *any* HP documentation -- it's *amazing* how little use generic Unix docs can be ! -- ayana@cris.com Ayana Craven Still... the odds fall sweet in favor to an open heart. - Ferron >From alt.censorship Sat Jul 8 11:02:01 1995 Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsie.dmc.com!spdcc!fj From: fj@spdcc.com (FJ!!) Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Message-ID: Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com> Distribution: inet Date: Sat, 8 Jul 1995 02:59:21 GMT Lines: 23 Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307742 alt.censorship:56681 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32242 comp.org.eff.talk:57781 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6778 In article , Rich Gibson wrote: >Besides, the whole idea that you need a 'safe space' on the net is >ludicrous. Has Fred Cherry tried to do anything to you, other than use >words to disagree with your positions? There is a loon out there who once put a price of $150,- on me getting seriously clobbered up, because he didn't like the fact that I was telling him that I was a happy faggot and I thought his homophobia was shit. Well excuse me for wanting a group created for people with same-sex attractions to discuss amongst themselves to not be bothered by those kinds of articles. You know what, maybe I should take this into some group in the k12 or fj hierarchy. After all, what the hell do they care that it is not on topic, right? They can just rebuff my arguments with logic and reason, right? Will you follow me there? Homophobia is about as on-topic on soc.motss as a discussion about pedophilia on a k12-education newsgroup. If you want to advocate the one you can watch your arguments be used to advocate the other. FJ!! >From comp.org.eff.talk Sat Jul 8 11:02:01 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!hookup!news.mathworks.com!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!netaxs.com!grendel From: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) Newsgroups: soc.motss,comp.org.eff.talk Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 8 Jul 1995 05:27:43 GMT Organization: lockheed lockheed martin marietta Lines: 19 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tl50f$h0q@netaxs.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3thtoj$eec@panix3.panix.com> <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tj09t$nrb@netaxs.com> <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com> Reply-To: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) NNTP-Posting-Host: unix3.netaxs.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307782 comp.org.eff.talk:57793 Newsgroups trimmed. In article <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com>, Seth Breidbart (sethb@panix.com) wrote: > >> Could such a charter be enforced fairly? > >Huh? What do you mean "enforced fairly", kemosabe? > Of course it _could_. Whether or not it _would_ is up to the people > involved, as usual. That's not what I'm asking. I asking what he means by enforcing the charter "fairly". I can't see what he's trying to say there -- could there be "unfair" enforcing of the charter? -- Michael Handler Philadelphia, PA Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics >From alt.censorship Sat Jul 8 11:02:01 1995 Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!malgudi.oar.net!utnetw.utoledo.edu!lab1.newton.utoledo.edu!gsmith From: Gene Ward Smith Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship In-Reply-To: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Sender: news@utnetw.utoledo.edu (News Manager) Organization: University of Toledo References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3thtoj$eec@panix3.panix.com> <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tj09t$nrb@netaxs.com> <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 8 Jul 1995 06:21:48 GMT Lines: 12 Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:56702 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32246 comp.org.eff.talk:57790 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6786 On Fri, 7 Jul 1995, Rich Gibson wrote: > Oh yes, you are right. There must be a _price_ to pay if you are > childish. In fact, the Soc.motss'ers are paying that price because they > are too stupid to ignore Fred Cherry. Actually, I think they like his > posts as they give them a good straw man to rail against. Go away. Cherry is not wanted on soc.motss, and neither are you. -- Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/University of Toledo gsmith@newton.utoledo.edu >From alt.censorship Sat Jul 8 11:02:01 1995 Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!malgudi.oar.net!utnetw.utoledo.edu!lab1.newton.utoledo.edu!gsmith From: Gene Ward Smith Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship In-Reply-To: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Sender: news@utnetw.utoledo.edu (News Manager) Organization: University of Toledo References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3te8hi$l0k@interport.net> <3teoii$4j8@sundog.tiac.net> <3tf4ae$122@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3thtoj$eec@panix3.panix.com> <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tj09t$nrb@netaxs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 8 Jul 1995 06:23:57 GMT Lines: 11 Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:56703 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32247 comp.org.eff.talk:57791 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6787 On Fri, 7 Jul 1995, Rich Gibson wrote: > It sure seems to me that in this instance Fred Cherry is totally right, > and the soc.motss'ers are being total assholes. Exactly. We are nasty assholes with a bad attitude. We don't like you. Go away. -- Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/University of Toledo gsmith@newton.utoledo.edu >From soc.motss Sun Jul 9 20:08:56 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!hookup!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.cs.columbia.edu!news.nyc.pipeline.com!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!cmcl2!is2.NYU.EDU!dwf4930 From: dwf4930@is2.nyu.edu (David W. Fenton) Newsgroups: soc.motss Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 8 Jul 1995 17:12:07 GMT Organization: New York University Lines: 46 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tme97$gj5@cmcl2.NYU.EDU> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tfe1u$j4q@sundog.tiac.net> <3tgnju$hdm@interport.net> <3thium$1pm@cmcl2.NYU.EDU> <3tki3p$9fa@voyager.cris.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: is2.nyu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] [I wrote a message with followups trimmed to soc.motss alone because I was really addressing soc.motss, and because the whole point of the post was to show that Fred Cherry was not a regular reader of soc.motss] Ayana (Ayana@voyager.cris.com) wrote: : Might I make one small alteration to your suggestion ? What about : posting that followup to every group *but* soc.motss ? Since Fred : doesn't read here anyway, he'll still see the response, but : **the rest of us won't**. I honestly have to say: Did you read my post? I was not speaking to the people in all those newsgroups about which I don't care in the slightest. I was addressing soc.motss. Besides, my whole point was to show that Cherry _does not_ read soc.motss, and, if we in soc.motss did not respond to him in all those cross-posted newsgroups, he wouldn't be seen here at all. I was not at all suggesting that we trim the followups to all Fred Cherry messages to soc.motss alone -- _that_ would be a particularly peculiar form of cyber-internalized homophobia! : I have gotten tired of reading posts by people who usually have : something worthwhile to say, only to find that they're still responding : to some jerk whose brief appearance here has already been too long. Well, thanks for the implicit compliment. However, I was not responding to Cherry's post. I was ruminating on Cherry's presence in soc.motss and making an observation about him that I thought was a little more than anyone had said here in the brief 8 months I've been reading soc.motss. : It may be improper netiquette (I'm appreciative of email hints here, : folks), but I have started posting responses with soc.motss trimmed : from both the Newsgroups: line and also the Followups: line. I don't : really know if it's helped, since I'm not reading the other groups, : but it can't have hurt, IMNSHO. Well, if I understand the way followups:/newsgroups: work, trimming effects only those followups to the message in which the trimming has taken place, not the thread as a whole. Besides, in this case, the whole thread originated here with the NWU posting. That seems to me to require that _all_ followups stay in soc.motss, at least as long as they stay on topic. David W. Fenton New York University dwf4930@is2.nyu.edu >From soc.motss Sun Jul 9 20:08:56 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.crl.com!crl12.crl.com!not-for-mail From: dk@crl.com (David A. Kaye) Newsgroups: soc.motss Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 8 Jul 1995 11:47:39 -0700 Organization: Republic of San Francisco Lines: 18 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tmjsb$t3m@crl12.crl.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: crl12.crl.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Church of BattleTech wrote: : I do not make a habit of posting email, as I find it very rude.... Too bad you did; I STILL find it very rude. : you will see, I did have no other choice, really. Sure, you had a choice, but you have have convinced yourself that you are self-important and that some little slight is worthy of even more netbashing. Please get a hobby -- something far away from computers. Let the big men and women play, okay? -- (c) 1995 A hospital nurse is said to walk 1,300 miles a year. David Kaye >From alt.censorship Sun Jul 9 20:08:56 1995 Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!noc.netcom.net!netcom.com!drahcirr From: drahcirr@netcom.com (Rich Gibson) Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Message-ID: Followup-To: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3thtoj$eec@panix3.panix.com> <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tj09t$nrb@netaxs.com> <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com> Date: Sat, 8 Jul 1995 21:17:56 GMT Lines: 29 Sender: drahcirr@netcom13.netcom.com Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:56791 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32256 comp.org.eff.talk:57823 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6810 Gene Ward Smith (gsmith@newton.utoledo.edu) wrote: : On Fri, 7 Jul 1995, Rich Gibson wrote: : > Oh yes, you are right. There must be a _price_ to pay if you are : > childish. In fact, the Soc.motss'ers are paying that price because they : > are too stupid to ignore Fred Cherry. Actually, I think they like his : > posts as they give them a good straw man to rail against. : Go away. Cherry is not wanted on soc.motss, and neither are you. : -- : Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/University of Toledo : gsmith@newton.utoledo.edu Hey, look, it is a clueless idiot! Gene, take a look at the headers in the message that you personally posted...you posted in alt.censorship, amont other places. What a clueless fuck! Gawds, is everyone in soc.motss this _clueless_? The hell of it is that, believe it or not, I share more values with you than with Fred Cherry, I just happen to have one value that you idiots seem to lack-the belief that individual freedom is more important than group comfort. -- Rich Gibson drahcirr@netcom.com [\] PADI DM Candidate -------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you can't trust me with a choice, how can you trust me with an Hawaiian pizza? >From alt.censorship Sun Jul 9 20:08:56 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!hookup!panix!not-for-mail From: sethb@panix.com (Seth Breidbart) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 8 Jul 1995 18:14:09 -0400 Organization: Society for the Promulgation of Cruelty to the Clueless Lines: 22 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tmvvh$idg@panix3.panix.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tj09t$nrb@netaxs.com> <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix3.panix.com Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:307939 alt.censorship:56795 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32259 comp.org.eff.talk:57826 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6816 In article , FJ!! wrote: >We are talking about real hatred and real safe space here, If you want "safe space", you need either moderation (preferably a moderated mailing-list, because newsgroup moderation is too easy to spoof) or a strong-AI killfile for your newsreader (ask Dave Hayes where to get one). > not some >squabbles about programs. Try keeping your analogies relevant to that >before anybody ever tells us that we should let everybody post everything >to every newsgroup and that there are no appropriate places for certain >expressions. I never said that; I'm in favor of people keeping to newsgroup charters, and newsgroups defending themselves against people who don't. My point was that it's quite fair for a charter to say "don't argue about X (either side)", while Carl was objecting to charters that say "you can only post on one side of the issue". Seth >From soc.motss Sun Jul 9 20:08:56 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!hookup!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!panix!not-for-mail From: lrudolph@panix.com (Lee Rudolph) Newsgroups: soc.motss Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 8 Jul 1995 19:57:57 -0400 Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC Lines: 13 Message-ID: <3tn625$n7r@panix.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tfe1u$j4q@sundog.tiac.net> <3tgnju$hdm@interport.net> <3thium$1pm@cmcl2.NYU.EDU> <3tki3p$9fa@voyager.cris.com> <3tme97$gj5@cmcl2.NYU.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix.com dwf4930@is2.nyu.edu (David W. Fenton) writes: >Besides, my whole point was to show that >Cherry _does not_ read soc.motss, and, if we in soc.motss did not respond >to him in all those cross-posted newsgroups, he wouldn't be seen here at >all. You're almost certainly wrong that he "_does not_ read soc.motss". Consider, for instance, his (non-crossposted) reply to a post of Bob Donahue's in the "Christian Love" thread (none of which has been crossposted, as far as I can tell). Lee Rudolph >From soc.motss Sun Jul 9 20:08:56 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!warp.cris.com!not-for-mail From: Ayana@voyager.cris.com (Ayana) Newsgroups: soc.motss Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 8 Jul 1995 21:16:31 -0400 Organization: Fishing On The Net Lines: 110 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tnalf$ce6@voyager.cris.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3thium$1pm@cmcl2.NYU.EDU> <3tki3p$9fa@voyager.cris.com> <3tme97$gj5@cmcl2.NYU.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: voyager-fddi.cris.com In article <3tme97$gj5@cmcl2.NYU.EDU>, David W. Fenton wrote: : :[I wrote a message with followups trimmed to soc.motss alone because I :was really addressing soc.motss, and because the whole point of the post :was to show that Fred Cherry was not a regular reader of soc.motss] : :Ayana (Ayana@voyager.cris.com) wrote: : :: Might I make one small alteration to your suggestion ? What about :: posting that followup to every group *but* soc.motss ? Since Fred :: doesn't read here anyway, he'll still see the response, but :: **the rest of us won't**. : :I honestly have to say: Did you read my post? I was not speaking to the :people in all those newsgroups about which I don't care in the slightest. :I was addressing soc.motss. Besides, my whole point was to show that :Cherry _does not_ read soc.motss, and, if we in soc.motss did not respond :to him in all those cross-posted newsgroups, he wouldn't be seen here at :all. I was not at all suggesting that we trim the followups to all Fred :Cherry messages to soc.motss alone -- _that_ would be a particularly :peculiar form of cyber-internalized homophobia! : Yes, I did read your post. I obviously didn't make myself very clear. I don't see much point in responding to Fred at all. He's been here before, and will probably be back again at some later point. Not responding to him will not kill the cross-posted threads, nor will it keep him from starting new ones. This is what Fred does for fun. I've only been reading here for <2 years, so I don't have a sense for how long it takes him to cycle back in. Responding to him *only* in soc.motss would prevent folks who don't know about him from thinking that soc.motss condones his message - that's the only possible benefit I see from responding to him at all. But there will still be the cross-posted thread, with all of its vitriolic homophobia. My hope in responding to him everywhere *except* soc.motss is to draw the discussion/flamefest down that threadline, which *will not appear* here at all, thus getting rid of Fred and the other folks who seem to enjoy engaging in those threads. Yeah, I can just killfile the thread, but I just want him gone. :: I have gotten tired of reading posts by people who usually have :: something worthwhile to say, only to find that they're still responding :: to some jerk whose brief appearance here has already been too long. : :Well, thanks for the implicit compliment. However, I was not responding :to Cherry's post. I was ruminating on Cherry's presence in soc.motss and :making an observation about him that I thought was a little more than :anyone had said here in the brief 8 months I've been reading soc.motss. : I understood that your response was to the event, not the content of the event. I don't really remember when Fred's last appearance was. :: It may be improper netiquette (I'm appreciative of email hints here, :: folks), but I have started posting responses with soc.motss trimmed :: from both the Newsgroups: line and also the Followups: line. I don't :: really know if it's helped, since I'm not reading the other groups, :: but it can't have hurt, IMNSHO. : :Well, if I understand the way followups:/newsgroups: work, trimming :effects only those followups to the message in which the trimming has :taken place, not the thread as a whole. Addressed above. I'll admit to occasionally being disingenuous and posting flame-bait on the thread, purposefully to draw the jerks off to that thread unawares. Yes, it's probably an indication of a lack of character, but I'm rather pragmatic. Anything that might work. :Besides, in this case, the whole :thread originated here with the NWU posting. That seems to me to require :that _all_ followups stay in soc.motss, at least as long as they stay on :topic. : Hmmm. You're assuming that the posting, which orinally was posted to motss and a dozen other groups I think, has a place in motss. (Disclaimer - that post is long gone from CRIS, so I'm going on memory with that assertion.) I think Fred's complaints belong in alt.net.kooks, personally. Perhaps I've just read too many of them. On topic for motss is another matter. I *do* respond here when I think the discussion fits here, or when another motsser (who may well not read any of the other groups) is one of the folks to whom I'm responding. I'm not saying that your idea isn't a good one. For deity's sake, yes, if anyone wants to *discuss* the issue, restrict the newsgroups to soc.motss when you followup ! So let me retract the "alteration" suggestion, and make it an "alternate" suggestion, for anybody who's in the mood to do some housekeeping around here... though I freely admit that I have no idea of whether or not it actually does any good. Finding out for sure would require following those threads in the other newsgroups, to see how much traffic they generate, and frankly I get enough bigotry in my life from the local newspaper. Ayana, who really is glad that other people care enough to try to get rid of the pests (Jeez, I'm wordy tonight ! Must be too much time in an empty office practicing scant Unix skills....) -- ayana@cris.com Ayana Craven Still... the odds fall sweet in favor to an open heart. - Ferron >From alt.censorship Sun Jul 9 20:08:56 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx10.cs.du.edu!not-for-mail From: anon2c9e@nyx10.cs.du.edu (henry) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Followup-To: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Date: 9 Jul 1995 05:06:20 -0600 Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci. Lines: 76 Message-ID: <3tod7c$eiu@nyx10.cs.du.edu> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: nyx10.cs.du.edu Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:56869 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32265 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6842 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- [comp.org.eff.talk removed from Newsgroups: line] In article , Rich Gibson wrote: >Gene Ward Smith (gsmith@newton.utoledo.edu) wrote: >: On Fri, 7 Jul 1995, Rich Gibson wrote: >: > Oh yes, you are right. There must be a _price_ to pay if you are >: > childish. In fact, the Soc.motss'ers are paying that price because they >: > are too stupid to ignore Fred Cherry. Actually, I think they like his >: > posts as they give them a good straw man to rail against. >: Go away. Cherry is not wanted on soc.motss, and neither are you. >Hey, look, it is a clueless idiot! gene ward smith a clueless idiot? no, he's just a nasty flamer who seriously gets up a head of steam when faced with the incontinent lunacy of a consummate nitwit like fred cherry. indeed, the man is a living legend, which you might have known had you been around the last decade or so. >Gene, take a look at the headers in the message that you personally >posted...you posted in alt.censorship, amont other places. >What a clueless fuck! Gawds, is everyone in soc.motss this _clueless_? no, but at least you got it out of soc.motss, which puts you up on the rest of the people here. i removed comp.org.eff.talk, and if anyone following this up takes _another_ newsgroup out of the line, we can kill this thread in short order. frankly, i've heard enough about mr. cherry's lack of a sex life at nauseating length as it is and don't care to listen to any more about it. his whining about censorship is pretty much a long- standing joke, as well. if he's going to be such an outrageously off-topic charter-flouting asshole, he's going to have to deal with the consequences of it. >The hell of it is that, believe it or not, I share more values with you >than with Fred Cherry, I just happen to have one value that you idiots >seem to lack-the belief that individual freedom is more important than >group comfort. yes, but fred cherry's sysadmin might disagree with you, and might indeed not wish to subsidize the rantings of a demented imbecile. i advise he get a netcom account if he wishes the right to act like an indescribable crawling horror of a usenet poster. there's no 'censorship' here, just a nasty response to a nasty little spam artist. h - -- SUPPORT THE DENNIS ERLICH DEFENSE FUND! READ ALT.RELIGION.SCIENTOLOGY! Send checks to MORRISON & FOERSTER, 345 California Street, San Francisco, California 94104-2675. Telephone: (415) 677-7000 Fax: (415) 677-7522 Contact People: Carla Oakley and Katie Walsh. MAKE SURE YOU LABEL YOUR CHECK "DENNIS ERLICH DEFENSE FUND". Checks should be made out to Morrison & Foerster. For verification of this info, email ssteele@eff.org (Shari Steele) SAVE THE REV! [ For Public Key: finger anon2c9e@nyx10.cs.du.edu ] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6 iQCVAwUBL/+3+NOUGUXWNqytAQGgGgP/RX9kenedXL6FJ7v3tsALsyKOIKCPYr8A s6woWupX26p1yEQfGlNivPxktyesKoEaE5Oa08q6QLVOVnqhOhDKQaUkfRvQ/w4L q3UoYpY893LJGrWs20PXsPSEEuEcrmBfJgsNldODmrHB/Z+BnmlCFuMjwYLA3F3I prW9kE2AZ6U= =/Qsl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >From alt.censorship Sun Jul 9 20:08:56 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!caen!msunews!netnews.upenn.edu!netaxs.com!grendel From: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 9 Jul 1995 14:02:01 GMT Organization: International Dark Skies Lines: 17 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tongp$q8f@netaxs.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3thtoj$eec@panix3.panix.com> <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tj09t$nrb@netaxs.com> <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com> Reply-To: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) NNTP-Posting-Host: unix3.netaxs.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:56881 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32266 comp.org.eff.talk:57872 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6844 In article , Rich Gibson (drahcirr@netcom.com) wrote: > What a clueless fuck! Gawds, is everyone in soc.motss this _clueless_? No, but we all have guns and we know where you live. > The hell of it is that, believe it or not, I share more values with you > than with Fred Cherry, I just happen to have one value that you idiots > seem to lack-the belief that individual freedom is more important than > group comfort. Gads, you're starting to sound like a Randroid. Phasers on kill, stop it before it spreads... -- Michael Handler Philadelphia, PA Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics >From alt.censorship Sun Jul 9 20:08:57 1995 Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!malgudi.oar.net!utnetw.utoledo.edu!lab1.newton.utoledo.edu!gsmith From: Gene Ward Smith Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship In-Reply-To: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Sender: news@utnetw.utoledo.edu (News Manager) Organization: University of Toledo References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 9 Jul 1995 18:00:34 GMT Lines: 26 Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:56896 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32267 comp.org.eff.talk:57878 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6848 On Sun, 2 Jul 1995, National Writers Union wrote: > [alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse, comp.org.eff.talk, and > news.admin.net-abuse.misc are added to soc.motss] Soc.motss removed. Get lost. > The New Technologies Campaign, the Political Issues > Committee, and the Queer Caucus of the National Writers > Union take vigorous exception to denying -- or attempting to > deny -- Internet access to anyone for the content of Usenet > posts. This self-styled vigilantism is little better than > bigotry hiding under a white sheet. I suggest all the above groups blow it out their ass and rub it in their hair. This alleged committee does not even bother to understand what actually is going on before calling people Klansmen. > Bob Chatelle, Chair > Political Issues Committee Go away, and take your ill-informed moralizing with you. -- Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/University of Toledo gsmith@newton.utoledo.edu >From alt.censorship Sun Jul 9 20:08:57 1995 Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!malgudi.oar.net!utnetw.utoledo.edu!lab1.newton.utoledo.edu!gsmith From: Gene Ward Smith Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship In-Reply-To: <3th1m5$e43@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Sender: news@utnetw.utoledo.edu (News Manager) Organization: University of Toledo References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t7ptm$j20@sundog.tiac.net> <3te8hi$l0k@interport.net> <3teoii$4j8@sundog.tiac.net> <3tf4ae$122@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tfe1u$j4q@sundog.tiac.net> <3th1m5$e43@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 9 Jul 1995 18:26:05 GMT Lines: 69 Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:308134 alt.censorship:56899 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32270 comp.org.eff.talk:57884 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6853 On 6 Jul 1995, Carl M Kadie wrote: > donahue@omphalos.skepsis.com (Bob Donahue) writes: > >So, that also means that every course they offer has to > >permit "not X" lecturers? I don't think so. > University classes are moderated. Moreoever, they usually do allow > replies. I dunno. When I teach, I stand up their talking and answering questions. It isn't like a newsgroup, moderated or otherwise. And if I tell someone pi is irrational, we don't have to allow some loon to come and and rebut it by saying it is actually 3. > >This also means that all the non-moderated religious > >newsgroups should be permitted to have "not X" postings there > >too? > Yes. I would hate to have a state university punish a student for > replying to a homophopic posting in an unmoderated religious > newsgroup. > Even worse, if you think *anything* should be enforceable in a charter > then someone could create an unmoderated newsgroup that said "only > heterosexuals can post here" AND have it enforced by sites, for > example, state universities. Where do you draw the line? This is dumb. No one is saying only homosexuals can post to soc.motss. No one is saying that if people here start saying that all heterosexuals are breeder scum, that no reply is allowable. > >No - it's vital to have designated places where "not X" > >positions can be aired. It is NOT vital that they be aired in > >the exact same places. > I don't think creating a system of "free speech ghettos" > would help bring about justice for gay people. The fact is, to some extent it works. It doesn't work to bring about justice, which is not the intent. It works to give other people the same right of free association that straight white males enjoy, and in which they are so privileged they don't realize the extent to which other people are not. There are some groups in our society which are hated. If you let anyone post hate messages to soc.culture.jewish, soc.culture.african-american, or soc.culture.motss, you are buying into the idea that groups which are hated should have *in practice* fewer rights than other people. Why shouldn't gay people have the right to at least one place on the net where they are treated as full human beings? Is that so damned much to ask? > Recall that some readers of rec.scouting, from time to time, have > tried to avoid criticism of the anti-gay, anti-atheist policies of the > Boy Scouts of America. They suggested creating something like > "alt.gay.scouting-policy". Sorry, but you aren't born a boy scout. You aren't born a bigot. It seems to me your position allows *everything*--pyramid scams, Cantor and Siegal, anything. And it reeks of an "I've got mine", culturally privileged attitude. I like the idea of dumping all the crap on the net onto comp.org.eff.talk--I wonder if it went on for long enough, whether you might finally see the point. -- Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/University of Toledo gsmith@newton.utoledo.edu >From alt.censorship Sun Jul 9 20:08:57 1995 Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!noc.netcom.net!netcom.com!drahcirr From: drahcirr@netcom.com (Rich Gibson) Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Message-ID: Followup-To: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3thtoj$eec@panix3.panix.com> <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tj09t$nrb@netaxs.com> <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com> <3tongp$q8f@netaxs.com> Distribution: inet Date: Sun, 9 Jul 1995 18:29:58 GMT Lines: 37 Sender: drahcirr@netcom7.netcom.com Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:56897 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32268 comp.org.eff.talk:57879 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6850 Michael Handler (grendel@netaxs.com) wrote: : In article , : Rich Gibson (drahcirr@netcom.com) wrote: : > What a clueless fuck! Gawds, is everyone in soc.motss this _clueless_? : No, but we all have guns and we know where you live. So, you would meet words with violence? That seems like a tolerant attitude... : > The hell of it is that, believe it or not, I share more values with you : > than with Fred Cherry, I just happen to have one value that you idiots : > seem to lack-the belief that individual freedom is more important than : > group comfort. : Gads, you're starting to sound like a Randroid. : Phasers on kill, stop it before it spreads... So, it would appear that you are arguing that the comfort of one group is more important than the rights of an individual? Had you argued that it was not a matter of rights I might have been abel to respect your view, but what you have written is that in the general case a group can silence an individual if that individual intrudes on their 'comfort.' Under that view, why should Gays have rights? After all, many people feel dicomfitted by confronting homosexuality. So, I believe that your intolerance is no better than The Christian Coalition... -- Rich Gibson drahcirr@netcom.com [\] PADI DM Candidate -------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you can't trust me with a choice, how can you trust me with an Hawaiian pizza? >From alt.censorship Sun Jul 9 20:08:57 1995 Path: news.interport.net!interport!not-for-mail From: john1@interport.net (Fred Cherry) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.sex,alt.sex.services Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 9 Jul 1995 14:37:05 -0400 Organization: Johns & Call Girls United Against Repression Lines: 380 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tp7kh$qov@interport.net> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t7ptm$j20@sundog.tiac.net> <3te8hi$l0k@interport.net> <3teoii$4j8@sundog.tiac.net> <3tf4ae$122@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tfe1u$j4q@sundog.tiac.net> <3tgnju$hdm@interport.net> <3tgrk9$4ph@classic.iinet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: interport.net X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #4 (NOV) Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:308112 alt.censorship:56898 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32269 comp.org.eff.talk:57881 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6851 alt.sex:250745 alt.sex.services:14993 In Message-ID: <3tgrk9$4ph@classic.iinet.com.au> Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 6 Jul 1995 22:23:05 +0800 cub@iinet.com.au (Rod Swift) wrote: >john1@interport.net (Fred Cherry) writes: > >>In fact, that is exactly what happens. Rod Swift is constantly going into >>the alt.christnet hierarchy and posting homosexual dogma there. > >No. I reply to people who are spreading untruths about >homosexuality there. Further, the major difference is that I try >to limit it to 2-3 newsgroups (unlike you who crossposts avidly >to 20+ groups at times). Further, alt.christnet is appropriate >and you will note I do not post usually to >soc.religion.christian. > >I respect the soc.* group that Christians have, and debate on the >alt.* group concerned (usually crossposted to >alt.politics.homosexuality anyway.) > >This is completely different to your modus operandi and intent >when you post to soc.motss. Izatso? Respect, you say? Well, folks, take a look at the material below the dashed line. First of all Swift is posting to 8 newsgroups. He is actually trying to destroy a newsgroup, just because he doesn't like the moderator. He is doing the exact same thing here that he objects to my doing in soc.motss. And he certainly has no respect for anyone there who doesn't agree with him. -----------------------------snip----------------------------------- >From misc.education.home-school.christian Fri Apr 7 09:46:10 1995 Path: panix!news.intercon.com!udel!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.moneng.mei.com!news.ecn.bgu.edu!feenix.metronet.com!fohnix.metronet.com!not-for-mail From: bear@fohnix.metronet.com (Rod Swift) Newsgroups: misc.education.home-school.christian,alt.atheism,misc.education.home-school.christian,alt.org.promisekeepers,netcom.general,alt.config Subject: Nanson seems to be a really great moderator... NOT! Date: 23 Mar 1995 21:18:32 -0600 Organization: Texas Metronet, Inc (login info (214/705-2901 - 817/571-0400)) Lines: 47 Message-ID: <3ktdm8$qe9@fohnix.metronet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: fohnix.metronet.com Xref: panix misc.education.home-school.christian:5791 alt.atheism:174959 alt.org.promisekeepers:322 netcom.general:2420 alt.config:66204 It seems that the very homophobic Mr Nanson, who uses his alt.* moderated group alt.education.home-school.christian as an anti-gay rhetoric group, can't even accept postings or questions to his "moderatorship". Someone should seriously call for someone to replace him. >From misc.education.home-school.christian Fri Apr 7 09:46:11 1995 Path: panix!zip.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gatech!psuvax1!news.ecn.bgu.edu!feenix.metronet.com!fohnix.metronet.com!not-for-mail From: bear@fohnix.metronet.com (Rod Swift) Newsgroups: misc.education.home-school.christian,alt.atheism,misc.education.home-school.christian,alt.org.promisekeepers,netcom.general,alt.config Subject: Re: Nanson seems to be a really great moderator... NOT! Date: 26 Mar 1995 08:39:58 -0600 Organization: Texas Metronet, Inc (login info (214/705-2901 - 817/571-0400)) Lines: 76 Message-ID: <3l3ubu$82m@fohnix.metronet.com> References: <3ktdm8$qe9@fohnix.metronet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: fohnix.metronet.com Xref: panix misc.education.home-school.christian:5863 alt.atheism:175500 alt.org.promisekeepers:503 netcom.general:2545 alt.config:66600 Tim_Sattler@mindlink.bc.ca (Tim Sattler) writes: > Rod this has nothing to do with the 4 other groups to which you posted it. Actually, it does. alt.config would have the people interested in possibly removing moderatorship from alt.education.home-school.christian, while misc.education.home-school.christian is the non-moderated group which asked Mr Nanson to set up the moderated group (and hence should be aware of his abuse of this moderator position), alt.atheism keeps track of such network Christian loons, and netcom.general would be relevant as that is Mr Nanson's local group. Finally, alt.org.promisekeepers was added, as you are asking to have a moderated newsgroup -- and this was an example of why it should not go ahead. >And you talk about off topic posts! Incorrect. They were all on-topic. >You only did this because you as usual >are trying to get back at someone that doesn't agree with you. Actually, I'm asking people to consider Mr Nanson's actions to be one of abusing his privilege as moderator (he's really a censor). >Give it up, >this isn't your own personal little kingdom that you can use and abuse for >your own self aggrandizement and hatemongering. So pursuing irresponsible moderators is "aggrandisement" and "hatemongering". I've only asked that he cease posting anti-gay propaganda (which was what that was, as I can give the evidence that completely disproves it) as "facts" on a Christian home-schooling newsgroup. >Your being consumed by this and that isn't healthy. There is no hate here, though you are harboring a lot of it. I love you Timmy. Here's a big *HUG* to calm your incessant and pedantic little whine. >Your mental state could start to side if it hasn't already. Oooh. That's more creative than your usual attempts at insults. If I were as petty as you, I'd do a spelling flame as a reply. >One of the first signs of mental illness is the inability to >see outside of your own little world. Sounds like you are insane -- you are Christian and can't see out of your own little ivory tower. >This isn't meant as harsh, this is said in concern,... But the reality is that you did mean it to be harsh, judgemental, to bear false witness, to contain insults and lies, etc, etc. Don't like, Timmy. It's a completely indefensible position. >...get off the NET for awhile, you need too for your own health. And the usual call for censorship -- which fundies resort to when they come to the ultimate logic errors in their own head from the questions we raise in their puny little minds. Get a life, fool. You need one. Rod -- | ... ..... | E-mail to: bear@metronet.com | ******* | | + + + + + + + + | http://nether.net/~rod/html/ | ***** | | * * * * * * * * | | *** | | R o d S w i f t | Hate is *NOT* a family value | * | Rod, you don't understand. Paul has "select" prople in an elm filter, so >that he doesn't have to expose his mind to the "perversions of non- >Christians". It's the same reason why I can't post to a.e.h-s.c., >regardless of the content of my post. >Look at the Subject: line: "mail refused; returned unread". Paul only >wants people HE approves of to post to alt.education.home-school.christian. >God forbid he should actually have to look at posts to determine if they >are revlant to home schooling. (For a perfect example, take a look at >the "Focus on the Family" newsletters he keeps posting. They have >nothing to do with home-schooling.) >This is the major reason why I urge all sysadmins to remove >alt.education.home-school.christian from their newspool. The >"moderator" isn't moderating, he's being a fascist. This is reason enough for rmgrouping it. Let's move it forward and get someone onto either removing the moderation of the group, or removing the group. Rod -- | ... ..... | E-mail to: bear@metronet.com | ******* | | + + + + + + + + | http://nether.net/~rod/html/ | ***** | | * * * * * * * * | | *** | | R o d S w i f t | Hate is *NOT* a family value | * | Surf the net to my webpage >From misc.education.home-school.christian Fri Apr 7 09:46:19 1995 Path: panix!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!hookup!news.moneng.mei.com!news.ecn.bgu.edu!feenix.metronet.com!fohnix.metronet.com!not-for-mail From: bear@fohnix.metronet.com (Rod Swift) Newsgroups: misc.education.home-school.christian,alt.atheism,misc.education.home-school.christian,alt.org.promisekeepers,netcom.general,alt.config Subject: Re: Nanson seems to be a really great moderator... NOT! Date: 29 Mar 1995 07:49:44 -0600 Organization: Texas Metronet, Inc (login info (214/705-2901 - 817/571-0400)) Lines: 22 Message-ID: <3lboho$2b5@fohnix.metronet.com> References: <3ktdm8$qe9@fohnix.metronet.com> <3l3ubu$82m@fohnix.metronet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: fohnix.metronet.com Xref: panix misc.education.home-school.christian:5988 alt.atheism:176287 alt.org.promisekeepers:696 netcom.general:2587 alt.config:66945 mnc@netcom.com (Miguel Cruz) writes: >Rod Swift wrote: >>"hatemongering". I've only asked that he cease posting anti-gay >>propaganda (which was what that was, as I can give the evidence >>that completely disproves it) as "facts" on a Christian >>home-schooling newsgroup. >I'm pretty sure that anti-gay propaganda does qualify as fact on a Christian >home-schooling newsgroup. You know, I thought education was the teaching of facts, not fiction? Rod -- | ... ..... | E-mail to: bear@metronet.com | ******* | | + + + + + + + + | http://nether.net/~rod/html/ | ***** | | * * * * * * * * | | *** | | R o d S w i f t | Hate is *NOT* a family value | * | alt.org.promisekeepers I think we should kill this newsgroup and replace it with any or all of the following: alt.org.promisecretins alt.org.promisecritters alt.org.promisecreepers alt.org.promisecreeps >I keep hearing whines about how this group needs to be "moderated". No no no. You need it renamed :) >If you do, you'll wind up with the exact same thing as Paul has in his >"moderated" group. I suggest you thank Rod for pointing this out. Exactly. a.o.p moderated would be a little fascist forum. Jesus loves me, yes I know, Satan loves me, yes I know, Because the newsgroups I control. Because the voices tell me so. Rod -- | ... ..... | E-mail to: bear@metronet.com | ******* | | + + + + + + + + | http://nether.net/~rod/html/ | ***** | | * * * * * * * * | | *** | | R o d S w i f t | Hate is *NOT* a family value | * | couldn't or that it wouldn't worth it. > >I had to RFD your last newsgroup. You claimed I was out to stop >the newsgroup. Yet another case of Cherry-noia. > >I publically challenge you to do something for yourself rather >than whine, Fred. Write a RFD for soc.motos The newsgroup you describe as: "your last newsgroup" is a newsgroup for prostitutes and their clients. That was started by Michael Handler. A group of people were discussing our charter, and you jumped in, before we had agreed on a charter and wrote your own RFD. The RFD you wrote is totally unacceptable. The group that would be formed would be nothing more than a duplicate of the alt.sex.services group. We have about a dozen people now. We want a group titled: talk.politics.sexwork. I wanted talk.politics.prostitution, but I was outvoted. We are all agreed that our charter forbids ads for sex services. Your charter did NOT forbid such ads. Your RFD is in our way. You were asked politely, by someone else, to withdraw your RFD, and you have refused. It is clear to some in our group that you are the equivalent of Aldrich Ames to us. Aldrich Ames, if anyone has forgotten, is the C.I.A. traitor who was working for the Russians. Now, *I* call upon Michael Handler to induce his friend Rod Swift to stop impeding our efforts to form a group for sex workers. By the way, we have all agreed, without any dissent, that our group will allow anti- prostitution postings. We are not a bunch of babies who need a nursery, the way that the denizens of soc.motss need a nursery. ************************************************************************* Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves. - Lincoln john1@interport.net, a.k.a. themadmailer@bix.com >From comp.org.eff.talk Mon Jul 10 21:24:12 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.crl.com!crl5.crl.com!not-for-mail From: gherbert@crl.com (George Herbert) Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 9 Jul 1995 23:00:26 -0700 Organization: Dis- Lines: 47 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tqflq$gaf@crl5.crl.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tgn8n$1dd@classic.iinet.com.au> <3thgee$ikc@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: crl5.crl.com Xref: news.interport.net comp.org.eff.talk:57919 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6888 In article <3thgee$ikc@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, Carl M Kadie wrote: >Saying that getting someone kicked off because of their viewpoint is >not censorship, is like saying getting someone fired from Cracker >Barrel Restaurant because they are gay is not employment >discrimination. After all, it is the manger, not the complainer who >does the firing. And besides there are plenty of other jobs. It may >even be true, but it is cold comfort to people who lose their access >or jobs. Getting someone kicked off a system merely for holding a viewpoint would be an inappropriate response. That is not indeed the question we face here; the question we face here is whether getting someone kicked off a system for expressing an abusive opinion in a newsgroup where that abusive opinion was specifically forbidden by charter is censorship or abuse of the poster. Through the mechanism of the charter, formulated during the newsgroup creation process, the users of Usenet get to specify what topics are supposed to be discussed in a newsgroup. Often these are not an exclusive set, but in some cases they are exclusive, some topics being deemed only appropriate for another group more appropriate for the topic. Anti-charter and off topic postings are abuses of the readers of a group. If there are enough of them, people will stop reading the group and it will die. The charter, and sysadmins ability to reign in their users who abuse the charter, is the body of Usenet's form of dealing with keeping newsgroups, in particular ones with controversial topics, alive. The additional step of moderation is sometimes necessary, but if it was required for every Usenet group the net would be in horrible shape. Carl, your position on this seems to stand on ideological high ground with no regards for the future viability of Usenet as a usable communications medium. Usenet stays viable for communications, at the moment, precisely because people who abuse it badly enough end up losing access. Whether this amounts to censorship or self defense is an issue open to debate, but it does indeed work. I would invite you to suggest a future path which decreases that need and yet allows Usenet to still be a useful communications medium. Until you have entered into a dialog about doing so, I cannot take as anything but academic criticisms your claims about this form of censorship being bad for Usenet. -george william herbert gherbert@crl.com >From alt.censorship Mon Jul 10 21:24:12 1995 Newsgroups: alt.censorship Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!demon!btnet!gold.compulink.co.uk!cix.compulink.co.uk!usenet From: avedon@cix.compulink.co.uk ("Avedon Carol") Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Message-ID: Organization: FAC References: <3tk2ca$p12@interport.net> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 06:17:07 GMT X-News-Software: Ameol Lines: 39 john1@interport.net (Fred Cherry) wrote: > Anyway, after this homosexual rights demonstration, the homosexuals > in the League elected a lesbian feminist of the Andrea Dworkin > persuasion to head the League. She then announced that as a lesbian > feminist, she was absolutely opposed to decriminalization of > prostitution, and that there would be no further demonstrations > favoring the cause of decriminalization > of prostitution. That was enough in itself to force me out It's a shame, Fred, that that both you and the media have never gotten the message that, overall, neither feminists nor gay/lesbian activists support the Dworkin position. I don't know too many queers, male or female, who love John Stoltenberg, either. Most of the feminist and gay/lesbian activists I know regard them as, at best, disturbed, self-hating individuals. None of the people in _my_ gay &/or feminist crowd would support Dworkin's odious, contemptuous language about "whores", for example. The truth is, people like Dworkin et al. also made a lot of lesbians, bi-sexual, and heterosexual women feel forced out of the women's movement by their punitive, anti-sex attitudes. The anti-sex women drove an enormous wedge between lesbians and gay men, between the gay movement and the women's liberation movement, and between feminists among themselves. Lesbians felt they weren't welcome to _lesbian_ events because anti-sex women would not tolerate the presence of pro-sex women. But the funny thing was, a lot of the women who were driving heterosexuals women out of the movement were _not lesbians_. They were political "lesbians" (that is, women who call themselves lesbians based on politics rather than desire for women) like Sheila Jeffreys, who weren't so much interested in women as pissed off at men; or they were heterosexual women like Dworkin who had chosen to have no sex rather than have sex with men. Hold up holy talismans, such as the books and writings of A. Sprinkle or S. Bright or B. Dodson, and watch pseudo-lesbians/pseudo-feminists melt like the Wicked Witch of the North, cowering in fear lest they be "raped" by seeing the image of a nude woman. (If you want to be _really_ mean, flash that infamous _Hustler_ cover they still don't understand.) >From alt.censorship Mon Jul 10 21:24:12 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!hookup!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx10.cs.du.edu!not-for-mail From: anon2c9e@nyx10.cs.du.edu (henry) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Followup-To: alt.censorship Date: 10 Jul 1995 04:25:59 -0600 Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci. Lines: 72 Message-ID: <3tqv7n$hlc@nyx10.cs.du.edu> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3t950c$cak_001@dialup.access.net> <3tb35k$c6t@panix2.panix.com> <3tk2ca$p12@interport.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: nyx10.cs.du.edu Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:308237 alt.censorship:56964 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32275 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6895 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- [soc.motss removed from Followup-To: line] In article <3tk2ca$p12@interport.net>, Fred Cherry wrote: >vicric@panix.com (Vicki Richman) wrote: >>Fred was one of the founders of the League for Sexual >>Freedom, which predated Stonewall by half a dozen years. The >>group supported gay rights. (Lesbians called themselves gay >>back then.) [self-hype and name-dropping deleted] >You know, I wasn't always a homophobe. that doesn't make the fact that you are one now any less reprehensible. >here is how it started. By the way, >I have posted this information previously. You probably didn't see it, >because, at that time, I had not learned the art of crossposting. >Here's what homosexuals did to me. [from the vicious hatefulness of this loon, i would have expected something like a gang-rape, but instead we find out that fred's real reason for his mindless bigotry is andrea fucking dworkin.] >[. . .] instead of asking for >Ben-Gay, I ask for Ben-Fag. i'm sure everyone is suitably impressed. i hope you say that to the wrong person some time and get the shit kicked out of you as you royally deserve. >>Fred supports the right of lesbian, male, and transgendered >>prostitutes to conduct business openly and legally. He >>regularly joins the Pride March with that message. [andrea dworkin] so fucking what? dworkin is a clown, and any organization that has anything to do with her is probably also populated by clowns and dimwits. so you've proven that there are indeed queer nitwits. big deal. there are jews like zeleny, too. i can't believe that you're such a petty little worm that you hate ten per cent of the population because your little group went queer on you. h - -- SUPPORT THE DENNIS ERLICH DEFENSE FUND! READ ALT.RELIGION.SCIENTOLOGY! Send checks to MORRISON & FOERSTER, 345 California Street, San Francisco, California 94104-2675. Telephone: (415) 677-7000 Fax: (415) 677-7522 Contact People: Carla Oakley and Katie Walsh. MAKE SURE YOU LABEL YOUR CHECK "DENNIS ERLICH DEFENSE FUND". Checks should be made out to Morrison & Foerster. For verification of this info, email ssteele@eff.org (Shari Steele) SAVE THE REV! [ For Public Key: finger anon2c9e@nyx10.cs.du.edu ] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6 iQCVAwUBMAEAHdOUGUXWNqytAQEdcAP/RZQIi6N6NWc9yhYGw+ZtAiGyHGJOk8Ej ZX9i1LEzy4iTi2pf8lOJVu1WVAMc6xzifdkBQhqqiT0pSMRLeYtgNr35yYoWUvPL Hk2f62XjuY++hyYbkMCIBv9QYaTqAJpPricBq9jyQwSSGNHSo97xkmAT5EzdWUZc JEftLH5C94I= =yYq6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >From alt.censorship Mon Jul 10 21:24:12 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!hookup!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx10.cs.du.edu!not-for-mail From: anon2c9e@nyx10.cs.du.edu (henry) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 10 Jul 1995 04:28:18 -0600 Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci. Lines: 43 Message-ID: <3tqvc2$hor@nyx10.cs.du.edu> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tfv7h$fvt@nyx10.cs.du.edu> <3tgh8d$ace@interport.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: nyx10.cs.du.edu Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:56965 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32276 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6896 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- [soc.motss and comp.org.eff.talk removed from Newsgroups: line] In article <3tgh8d$ace@interport.net>, Fred Cherry wrote: >In <3tfv7h$fvt@nyx10.cs.du.edu> anon2c9e@nyx10.cs.du.edu (henry) writes: >>would you really rather >>zeleny came back? jesus, that crazy son of a bitch had me >>dragging down books from my bookshelves in a frenzy to find >>material to counter his lies--cherry can generally be answered >>in thirty seconds or so with a quick smacking around. >You say Zeleny was a liar? a liar, a bigot, a kook, a freak, you name it. >Can you deny that Gene Ward Smith told Zeleny >to "Fuck your ass with broken glass!"? no. in fact, fuck your ass with broken glass, too. >Can you also deny that Rod Swift, a >homosexual neo-nazi, told Zeleny that "You're the type of Jew that gave >Hitler some justification for his genocide, I'm sure."? no, but i can deny that rod swift is a homosexual neo-nazi, and point out that you automatically lose just by calling rod swift a neo-nazi. h [ For Public Key: finger anon2c9e@nyx10.cs.du.edu ] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6 iQCVAwUBMADiX9OUGUXWNqytAQGrXwP9EiFkOBRKl90dpxSrkvqxbEXCuLv4vu+Q Cd791qye1NFqZ73X3zqZW3Gxk7bV8NXiiC0aJ3Ch8VsOlKuvYKFzw5V7+pN2Lj+E h+PaGgXA0e8Ke0iusZ30E8++0T2Z+5hG7A+o3yJ2xkuxxA0GDQV2/cLHLjTxpO8R 4fkm/l2Dhec= =BKpp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >From alt.censorship Mon Jul 10 21:24:12 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!hookup!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx10.cs.du.edu!not-for-mail From: anon2c9e@nyx10.cs.du.edu (henry) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 10 Jul 1995 04:29:03 -0600 Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci. Lines: 92 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tqvdf$hqr@nyx10.cs.du.edu> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tj09t$nrb@netaxs.com> <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: nyx10.cs.du.edu Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:308238 alt.censorship:56966 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32277 comp.org.eff.talk:57931 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6897 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In article , FJ!! wrote: >In article <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com>, >Seth Breidbart wrote: >>Actually, someone who said "Emacs v.2.5.37.144 is brain-dead" would >>probably start an on-charter discussion. >I wish Carl had chosen something like "a good nigger is a dead nigger vs. >asbolish apartheid" instead of a clean, socio-political implication-free >"emacs vs vi". actually, you'd be surprised how messy and ugly editors flamewars get. i've seen people get totally worked up and call each other nazis and lunatics for using the wrong editor. a similar case would be the Pine newsreader, which has several annoying habits like failing to distinguish adequately between private email and public posts. this buggy behavior has started off numerous flamewars when someone posted something they thought they were emailing. considering that Pine is mainly intended to be used by the clueless, this is unacceptable. >It would have made the articles following that a lot grittier to read. >We are talking about real hatred and real safe space here, not some >squabbles about programs. i'll agree about the real hatred, but not about real safe space. there is no safe space on the net, nor is there any reliable method of silencing the deranged lunatics of the net, regardless of whether one thinks it's a good idea to do so. it's not even a moral issue, but a signal-to-noise ratio. fred cherry's hatred may be real, but is he a threat to anyone? he shows how demented and ignorant an attitude homophobia is, and i imagine that he and similar net.loons do more to expose their laughable lies than even the best flamer could hope to do. i have occasionally changed my opinion on something if it seemed that it was an opinion held mainly by idiots, or after seeing it hashed out on the net vigorously and loudly. >Try keeping your analogies relevant to that >before anybody ever tells us that we should let everybody post everything >to every newsgroup and that there are no appropriate places for certain >expressions. agreed on this. still, i don't feel the 'safe space' analogy can hold. simply by the very nature of usenet topography, an unmoderated group is able to be swamped or otherwise abused by any lone fool. indeed, it is guaranteed that any newsgroup devoted to the discussion of a subset of the population is going to attract a few posters who will vociferously attack that subset for whatever reason. when confronted with such attacks, one can ignore them, flame them, try to get whoever wrote them kicked off the net, killfile them, or whatever you want. still, whatever you do, there will be idiots and assholes on the net and there will be _more_ idiots and assholes on the net very soon. in fact, there are thousands of _new_ idiots and assholes every day. it's a pain in the ass, but it's not going to destroy the net or the soc.motss community. OTOH, getting a loon like cherry kicked off the net only gives him credibility--for about five seconds until he opens his lying mouth--and guarantees he'll come back on some other site and rave some more. an inappropriate posting to usenet isn't anywhere near as offensive as, say, 'don't ask don't tell.' h - -- SUPPORT THE DENNIS ERLICH DEFENSE FUND! READ ALT.RELIGION.SCIENTOLOGY! Send checks to MORRISON & FOERSTER, 345 California Street, San Francisco, California 94104-2675. Telephone: (415) 677-7000 Fax: (415) 677-7522 Contact People: Carla Oakley and Katie Walsh. MAKE SURE YOU LABEL YOUR CHECK "DENNIS ERLICH DEFENSE FUND". Checks should be made out to Morrison & Foerster. For verification of this info, email ssteele@eff.org (Shari Steele) SAVE THE REV! [ For Public Key: finger anon2c9e@nyx10.cs.du.edu ] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6 iQCVAwUBMADqxtOUGUXWNqytAQHaOQP/RPgIWJ+zQjiRwaE0aMGBsiuDFYmZlKmC E/nECiZMU+ivhmCWmlYN/XAiEyaBpbPPFtYgs/ce+ObYIWvEOZcIWsvwl9G+79/Q lNCZ1NLtRrt99BhCw2paBENAR5NtMfScGJj4mKh9nuO39VE7l+X4Q5789ycJr152 9z5L9nZZ7RI= =F4Mt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >From alt.censorship Mon Jul 10 21:24:12 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!hookup!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx10.cs.du.edu!not-for-mail From: anon2c9e@nyx10.cs.du.edu (henry) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.flame.faggots Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Followup-To: alt.flame.faggots Date: 10 Jul 1995 04:30:06 -0600 Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci. Lines: 77 Message-ID: <3tqvfe$htg@nyx10.cs.du.edu> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tg1b2$b68@blackice.winternet.com> <3tgg3m$9m2@interport.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: nyx10.cs.du.edu Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:56967 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32278 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6898 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In article <3tgg3m$9m2@interport.net>, Fred Cherry wrote: >>[NOTE: I have removed soc.motss from the Followup line.] >I have restored soc.motss to the newsgroup line. The thread started in >soc.motss, and that's where it should continue to be discussed. [i have taken soc.motss back out of the Newsgroups: line, and also taken out comp.org.eff.talk. isn't this fun? i also added alt.flame.faggots, since this is where this garbage belongs. followups redirected appropriately. further Newsgroups: line capers will be ignored.] >>> Yes dear, but were you sending unsolicited mailings of postcards to >>> people who were completely uninterested in or offended by your message, >>> or were you mailing them to people who would have been interested in >>> their message? Come on, I think you should tell the WHOLE story, not >>> just those parts that will gain sympathy for you. harassment by mail is no different than harassment over the net or harassment in person, and is reprehensible conduct. mr. cherry has revealed again and again that he is to be trusted only to lie and misinform, spread bigotry in inappropriate newsgroups and otherwise act like a prize jerk-off in every way. [. . .] >>--Camille Klein. >I sent my cards to public officials, such as Congersmen, state >legislators, governors, etc. I also sent them to newspapers, magazines, >radio and television stations. we're very proud of you. after the lobotomy, that's quite an accomplishment. >I also sent them to various religious >organizations such as the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of New York, the >Salvation Army, etc. I also sent them to friends, just to see whether or >not they were being seized. this is a tactic much to be recommended to the would-be mass-mailing libel-kook. >Usually when the Post Office seized my cards >they didn't inform me of that fact. I generally sent the cards during >election campaigns. For example, one of my cards was headlined: "Vote for >Cuomo, Not the Homo." how nice. i hope you tossed in a few aids jokes, too. now those are a barrel of laughs. h - -- SUPPORT THE DENNIS ERLICH DEFENSE FUND! READ ALT.RELIGION.SCIENTOLOGY! Send checks to MORRISON & FOERSTER, 345 California Street, San Francisco, California 94104-2675. Telephone: (415) 677-7000 Fax: (415) 677-7522 Contact People: Carla Oakley and Katie Walsh. MAKE SURE YOU LABEL YOUR CHECK "DENNIS ERLICH DEFENSE FUND". Checks should be made out to Morrison & Foerster. For verification of this info, email ssteele@eff.org (Shari Steele) SAVE THE REV! [ For Public Key: finger anon2c9e@nyx10.cs.du.edu ] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6 iQCVAwUBMAD5nNOUGUXWNqytAQF8hwQAr9q/h9mAMFclchAooKmTi9HB2KSb21kP fbSDNs/LlKuS8rI2H3MYZHVNF8dQji89MgVQO9SEuvNhzefYx1yUdlWJoXg/ovym GiIUfzdR4pymEkpoXZsKIYapq4adRw82X49uNC2f+lc4+Mb02BiPxwCyunbkV1A9 4qH9esmdVVs= =go2j -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >From alt.censorship Mon Jul 10 21:24:12 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!hookup!panix!not-for-mail From: shore@nomt.com (Melinda Shore) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 10 Jul 1995 08:12:17 -0400 Organization: No Mountain Software Lines: 18 Sender: shore@panix.com Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tr5f1$5l9@panix2.panix.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com> <3tqvdf$hqr@nyx10.cs.du.edu> Reply-To: shore@nomt.com NNTP-Posting-Host: panix2.panix.com Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:308245 alt.censorship:56970 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32279 comp.org.eff.talk:57932 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6903 In article <3tqvdf$hqr@nyx10.cs.du.edu>, henry wrote: >actually, you'd be surprised how messy and ugly editors flamewars >get. i've seen people get totally worked up and call each other >nazis and lunatics for using the wrong editor. Why, you're *right*. Editor biases are *exactly* like the social mechanisms that lead to social and economic disenfranchisement, including (but not limited to) loss of housing, loss of child custody, loss of jobs, and physical beatings and murder. I hadn't realized that this editor stuff was so serious until you pointed it out. I think I'll go write my congressthing. -- Melinda Shore - No Mountain Software - shore@nomt.com If you send me harassing email, I'll probably post it >From alt.censorship Mon Jul 10 21:24:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!zombie.ncsc.mil!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!netaxs.com!grendel From: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 10 Jul 1995 12:50:08 GMT Organization: International Dark Skies Lines: 42 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tr7m0$d7n@netaxs.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3thtoj$eec@panix3.panix.com> <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tj09t$nrb@netaxs.com> <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com> <3tongp$q8f@netaxs.com> Reply-To: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) NNTP-Posting-Host: unix3.netaxs.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:56974 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32280 comp.org.eff.talk:57934 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6904 In article , Rich Gibson (drahcirr@netcom.com) wrote: > So, it would appear that you are arguing that the comfort of one group is > more important than the rights of an individual? Usenet is not a right. By your logic, I should be able to post anything I want anywhere I want. This might work if Usenet was a public resource. It is not. Usenet belongs to no one, and you have no "rights" upon Usenet. I really wish you moderated a newsgroup, so I could start forging postings to it. After all, isn't the rights of an individual more important than the comfort of a group? Hmmm? > Had you argued that it was not a matter of rights I might have been abel > to respect your view, but what you have written is that in the general > case a group can silence an individual if that individual intrudes on > their 'comfort.' No one is "silenced." Fred is still posting, as egregrious and annoying as ever. What we are asking him is to restrict his writings to appropriate forums. (Do you want me to drag out the tired old examples?) Should the KKK argue racial purity in the newsgroup dedicated to black culture? Or should they take it to the racial politics newsgroup? Should NAMBLA be discussed in the k12.* forums? Or should that discussion be in the sexual politics newsgroup? You're claiming that telling someone to take the discussion to an appropriate forum is "silencing" them. It's not. I really hope you can understand this concept. > So, I believe that your intolerance is no better than The Christian > Coalition... And I believe that your ISP surgically removed your sense of perspective when you signed up. But that's just a peeve of mine. -- Michael Handler Philadelphia, PA Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics >From alt.censorship Mon Jul 10 21:24:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sal!kadie From: kadie@sal.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M Kadie) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 10 Jul 1995 15:52:28 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 72 Message-ID: <3tribs$a0t@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t7ptm$j20@sundog.tiac.net> <3te8hi$l0k@interport.net> <3teoii$4j8@sundog.tiac.net> <3tf4ae$122@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tfe1u$j4q@sundog.tiac.net> <3th1m5$e43@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: sal.cs.uiuc.edu Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:308272 alt.censorship:56984 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32282 comp.org.eff.talk:57941 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6914 Gene Ward Smith writes: >I dunno. When I teach, I stand up their talking and answering questions. >It isn't like a newsgroup, moderated or otherwise. And if I tell someone >pi is irrational, we don't have to allow some loon to come and and rebut >it by saying it is actually 3. You are correct, even state universities that are bound by the First Amendment don't have to allow "Pi is 3" folks in. Why? Because classrooms are moderated forums. If you think you need the same kind of authority in a newsgroup, a moderated newsgroup is the way to go. Many schools do guarantee a limited "right-of-reply" to students of a class. The "Joint Statement on Rights and Freedoms of Students", the main statement of student academic freedom in the U.S., says: Students should be free to take reasoned exception to the data or views offered in any course of study and to reserve judgment about matters of opinion, but they are responsible for learning the content of any course of study for which they are enrolled. >This is dumb. No one is saying only homosexuals can post to soc.motss. But some people are suggesting that there is no limited on what should be enforceable in a charter. What is your position? If there was a charter that said "whites only", should an Internet provider punish blacks who post there? If you agree that some possible charter provisions should not be enforced by Internet providers, then we can discuss if viewpoint-discrimination in unmoderated newsgroups is one of them. >There are some groups in our society which are hated. If you let anyone >post hate messages to soc.culture.jewish, soc.culture.african-american, or >soc.culture.motss, you are buying into the idea that groups which are >hated should have *in practice* fewer rights than other people. So the way to protect gay, and Jewish, and African American rights is to give the mostly straight, white, Christian authorities the power to define and punish hateful speech? I believe history shows that this doesn't work. (Consider, for example, Canada's censorship of Little Sister's Bookstore.) [...] >It seems to me your position allows *everything*--pyramid scams, Cantor >and Siegal, anything. [...] Actually, I don't have as much problem with topic restrictions, only viewpoint restrictions. > And it reeks of an "I've got mine", culturally >privileged attitude. I like the idea of dumping all the crap on the net >onto comp.org.eff.talk--I wonder if it went on for long enough, whether >you might finally see the point. [...] I also don't have a problem with restrictions on substantially disruptive postings. If Fred was posting zillions of articles a day, I think you would be right to try to get is provider to stop him. - Carl References [If anyone really wants to see references to the academic freedom statement, First Amendment case law on viewpoint discrimation, topic restrictions, or restrictions on "substantial disruptions", just ask.] -- Carl Kadie -- I do not represent any organization or employer; this is just me. = Email: kadie@cs.uiuc.edu = = URL: >From alt.censorship Mon Jul 10 21:24:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!not-for-mail From: shore@nomt.com (Melinda Shore) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 10 Jul 1995 12:23:32 -0400 Organization: No Mountain Software Lines: 18 Sender: shore@panix.com Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3trk64$8bd@panix2.panix.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3th1m5$e43@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tribs$a0t@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> Reply-To: shore@nomt.com NNTP-Posting-Host: panix2.panix.com Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:308276 alt.censorship:56989 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32283 comp.org.eff.talk:57942 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6918 In article <3tribs$a0t@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, Carl M Kadie wrote: >Actually, I don't have as much problem with topic restrictions, only >viewpoint restrictions. Well, guess what? The soc.motss charter precludes discussion of the "legitimacy" of homosexuality. As it happens, the only people who seem to want to discuss that are people who appear to be bigots. As for Fred Cherry, the problem has been, and apparently continues to be <*plonk*> that he crossposts all over the place and has made a career out of posting off-topic rants to inappropriate newsgroups. We aren't talking about "viewpoint restrictions," so why are you? -- Melinda Shore - No Mountain Software - shore@nomt.com If you send me harassing email, I'll probably post it >From alt.censorship Mon Jul 10 21:24:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!sdd.hp.com!hp-pcd!hp-cv!reuter.cse.ogi.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!fred.uswnvg.com!dfpedro From: dfpedro@nv2.uswnvg.com () Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Followup-To: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Date: 10 Jul 1995 16:50:36 GMT Organization: I don't speak for them anyway. Lines: 101 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3trlos$ipc@fred.uswnvg.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t8skr$31p@interport.net> <3t9336$kaa@panix2.panix.com> <3t950c$cak_001@dialup.access.net> <3tb35k$c6t@panix2.panix.com> <3tk2ca$p12@interport.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: nv2.uswnvg.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:308290 alt.censorship:56996 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32284 comp.org.eff.talk:57944 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6921 Fred Cherry (john1@interport.net) wrote: : You know, I wasn't always a homophobe. And that's really a shame. : here is how it started. By the way, : I have posted this information previously. You probably didn't see it, : because, at that time, I had not learned the art of crossposting. : Here's what homosexuals did to me. You know, I've been harmed by blacks, hispanics, men, women, heterosexuals. homosexuals, and many others in my lifetime, but I didn't develop prejudices becasue if it. : Anyway, after this homosexual rights demonstration, the homosexuals in the : League elected a lesbian feminist of the Andrea Dworkin persuasion to head : the League. She then announced that as a lesbian feminist, she was : absolutely opposed to decriminalization of prostitution, and that there : would be no further demonstrations favoring the cause of decriminalization : of prostitution. That was enough in itself to force me out. Ok, so *a* lesbian was a shit to you, or gave you a hard time. I'm sorry that happened, why is that enough for you to spew all the vitrol you have about homosexuals? If a black person had treated you as such would you be a racist? : There was : something else. The League started to involve itself with advocating : homosexual child-molesting. They had the League's literature published for : free in exchange for an add in the League's literature in behalf of the : "International Journal of Greek Love." The name J.Z. Eglinton popped up. : I have forgotten exactly how. Either he was to speak at a League meeting or : something else. Now, if you read the alt.sex newsgroup, you will notice : that the topic: "pedophilia info" keeps popping up. Roy Radow a proponent : of homosexual child-molesting, gets some stooge to ask about "pedophilia" : and then Radow, a member of the North American Man/Boy Love Association : (NAMBLA), proceeds to spout the NAMBLA propaganda. Among other things, he : recommends the book: "Greek Love by J.Z. Eglinton. Oliver Layton Press, New : York, 1964." That's the SAME Oliver Layton Press that was publishing the : "International Journal of Greek Love" in '65. That fact was enough to drive : out any heterosexuals who weren't driven out by the League' changed stance : on prostitution. Many people in these newsgroups don't support Roy, or his agenda, and have said so -- numerious times. : That last time I posted this material people told me that I shouldn't have : become a homophobe because of one lesbian. It was NOT one lesbian. It was : the entire Mattachine Society. Ok, we are not the Mattachine Society. "Homosexuals" don't equal one organization, Fred. : The NY City Mattachine Society, the first : homosexual rights organization on the East Coast of the United States, sent : those homosexuals to take over the NY City League for Sexual Freedom. This : lesbian was elected to head the NYC League for Sexual Freedom for the : purpose of making the League into a front organization of the Mattachine : Society. Furthermore, at that time, the Mattachine Society was the ONLY : homosexual organization on the East Coast of the United States. Ever since : that time I have been a homophobe. In fact, my homophobia has reached such : depths of depravity that when I go to a drug store, instead of asking for : Ben-Gay, I ask for Ben-Fag. That is really sad that hate has permeated your life to such an extent. : However, now that Vicki Richman has come to my : defense, I will have to moderate my tone. Well, simply becoming more humanistic would help. You don't have to hate all homosexuals, or practice hate speech, Fred. : This year there was no such group in the march. I was watching on the : sidelines to see what organizations were marching. All of a sudden I see : Priscilla Alexander marching along with a COYOTE (Call Off Your Old Tired : Ethics) banner. So, I marched along with that group for a few blocks. Good for you. However, don't you think it a bit ironic that you matched with fags? : Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves. - Lincoln So, ease up, Fred. Many people don't support anti-prostitution laws and have said so here. Many people have said they have no problem with you partonizing prostitutes. Why all the homophobia? We aren't the Mattachine Society, the lesbian, her stooge, or any of those people that hurt you. That's what's really sad about all this. All your hateful speech over something from the 60's -- thirty hears is a long time to carry hate. Donn Pedro ....................................dfpedro@uswnvg.com >From alt.censorship Mon Jul 10 21:24:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news2.near.net!info-server.bbn.com!news!levin From: levin@bbn.com (Joel B Levin) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Followup-To: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Date: 10 Jul 1995 17:31:38 GMT Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman, Inc. Lines: 39 Distribution: inet Message-ID: References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3qsmjc$c7u@news.onramp.net> <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t7ptm$j20@sundog.tiac.net> <3te8hi$l0k@interport.net> <3teoii$4j8@sundog.tiac.net> <3tf4ae$122@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tfe1u$j4q@sundog.tiac.net> <3th1m5$e43@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tribs$a0t@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: morpheus.bbn.com In-reply-to: kadie@sal.cs.uiuc.edu's message of 10 Jul 1995 15:52:28 GMT Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:308307 alt.censorship:57005 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32285 comp.org.eff.talk:57947 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6929 In article <3tribs$a0t@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> kadie@sal.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M Kadie) writes: Actually, I don't have as much problem with topic restrictions, only viewpoint restrictions. Interesting you should say this. >From the charter of soc.motss (which no one seems to have actually quoted that I've seen): Net.motss is designed to foster discussion on a wide variety of topics, such as health problems, parenting, relationships, clearances, job security and many others. Gay members of USENET will find this a supportive environment for the discussion of issues which have immediate impact on their everyday lives. Those who aren't gay have an opportunity to be informed by the discussion, and are encouraged to read the news items and contribute their own questions and opinions. -> Net.motss is emphatically NOT a newsgroup for the -> discussion of whether homosexuality is good or bad, -> natural or unnatural. Nor is it a place where conduct -> unsuitable for the net will be allowed or condoned. Rather, like every USENET news group, it is an opportunity for people all across the world to express their opinions, exchange ideas, and come to appreciate the diversity within the USENET membership. Looks like "topic restrictions" to me; looks like diversity of _viewpoint_ is encouraged. Funny how until recently the notion of "safe space" was pretty well achieved, at least in this last bastion, simply through the cooperative nature of Usenet. This charter has stood up well over time. Written well before the notion of newgroup "charter" became ubiquitous, its author doesn't even call it a charter: you can see it dates from before the great renaming. /J >From soc.motss Mon Jul 10 21:24:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!lll-winken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!sgiblab!rpal.rockwell.com!news.Stanford.EDU!not-for-mail From: zwicky@Csli.Stanford.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Newsgroups: soc.motss Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 10 Jul 1995 13:48:09 -0700 Organization: changeable mammoth cabal Lines: 16 Message-ID: <3ts3m9$7cm@Csli.Stanford.EDU> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tb35k$c6t@panix2.panix.com> <3tk2ca$p12@interport.net> <3trlos$ipc@fred.uswnvg.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: csli.stanford.edu Summary: a change of heart in article <3trlos$ipc@fred.uswnvg.com>, donn pedro responds to fred cherry's account of how he - the cherry boy - came to be a homophobe: >Ok, so *a* lesbian was a shit to you, or gave you a hard time. >I'm sorry that happened, why is that enough for you to spew all the >vitrol you have about homosexuals? >If a black person had treated you as such would you be a racist? the prepared mind seeks an occasion - any occasion - for a change of heart. arnold >From comp.org.eff.talk Tue Jul 11 06:57:21 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!nntp.et.byu.edu!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!usenet From: dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 10 Jul 1995 23:32:54 -0700 Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory - Pasadena CA Lines: 60 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tt5um$ouv@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tgn8n$1dd@classic.iinet.com.au> <3thgee$ikc@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tqflq$gaf@crl5.crl.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: elxr-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: news.interport.net comp.org.eff.talk:57994 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6977 [You must have known this would draw *me* into the fray.] gherbert@crl.com (George Herbert) writes in response to Carl Kadie: >Getting someone kicked off a system merely for holding a viewpoint >would be an inappropriate response. That is not indeed the question >we face here; the question we face here is whether getting someone >kicked off a system for expressing an abusive opinion in a newsgroup >where that abusive opinion was specifically forbidden by charter is >censorship or abuse of the poster. Can you objectively qualify what an "abusive opinion" is? Can you really spell out, in words, a definition of "abusive opinion" that is clear, concise, complete, and unchallengable? It is quite possible for any reader to define abuse by identity. Given that, do you have any conception of the fine line one walks between "controlling abuse" and censoring a poster? >Anti-charter and off topic postings are abuses of the readers of a group. Not if I am reading it. I allow no one the power to abuse me by posting an off-topic message to a group. Thus your statement is not complete. >Carl, your position on this seems to stand on ideological high ground >with no regards for the future viability of Usenet as a usable communications >medium. Why is "ideological high ground" always equated to "unusable" and "unworkable"? Can you really justify such a position, and attempt to sound like you are trying to help matters? >Usenet stays viable for communications, at the moment, precisely >because people who abuse it badly enough end up losing access. That's not precisely true. Usenet has made enemies because of people losing access (e.g. C&S). The viability you see is the consensual hypnosis that I see (i.e. if an opinion isn't popular, it is "dealt with"), which leads to intellectual stagnation at best, and creative slavery at worst. >Whether this >amounts to censorship or self defense is an issue open to debate, but it does >indeed work. Work for whom? And by what standard do you suggest that it works? >I would invite you to suggest a future path which decreases that need and >yet allows Usenet to still be a useful communications medium. Wot a bait. Since you define the standard of "useful", you've just invited him to lose. I really pity you if this missive of yours is anything like how you see things. Perhaps you are unwillingly ignorant of the roots of these topics. I guess, until you are willing, I might as well shout at the moon. -- Dave Hayes -- Institutional NETworks - Section 394 -- JPL/NASA - Pasadena CA dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov ...usc!elroy!dxh "Better to be safe than to be sorry" is a remark of value only when these are the actual alternatives. >From alt.censorship Tue Jul 11 06:57:21 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!nntp.et.byu.edu!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!usenet From: dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 10 Jul 1995 23:40:25 -0700 Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory - Pasadena CA Lines: 20 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tt6cp$p6f@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3th1m5$e43@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tribs$a0t@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3trk64$8bd@panix2.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: elxr-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:308511 alt.censorship:57065 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32289 comp.org.eff.talk:57998 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6979 shore@nomt.com (Melinda Shore) writes: >Carl M Kadie wrote: >>Actually, I don't have as much problem with topic restrictions, only >>viewpoint restrictions. >Well, guess what? The soc.motss charter precludes >discussion of the "legitimacy" of homosexuality. As it >happens, the only people who seem to want to discuss that >are people who appear to be bigots. There, you see? Find an unpopular topic, attempt to discuss it, and people cry for the loss of access of the person attempting such. If the topic was popular, this wouldn't occur. Is that what Usenet is coming to? -- Dave Hayes -- Institutional NETworks - Section 394 -- JPL/NASA - Pasadena CA dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov ...usc!elroy!dxh He who has made a door and a lock, has also made a key. >From alt.censorship Tue Jul 11 06:57:21 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!usenet From: dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 10 Jul 1995 23:45:18 -0700 Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory - Pasadena CA Lines: 41 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tt6lu$pbi@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3thtoj$eec@panix3.panix.com> <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tj09t$nrb@netaxs.com> <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com> <3tongp$q8f@netaxs.com> <3tr7m0$d7n@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: elxr-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:57068 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32290 comp.org.eff.talk:58000 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6980 grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) writes: >Rich Gibson (drahcirr@netcom.com) wrote: >> So, it would appear that you are arguing that the comfort of one group is >> more important than the rights of an individual? >Usenet is not a right. But it should be. And if that's the only way we can get people to stop attempting to censor unpopular viewpoints and opinions, then it had *best* become that. Otherwise, if you wish to look to the future of usenet, look to the mass media. >postings to it. After all, isn't the rights of an individual more >important than the comfort of a group? Hmmm? Yes. 8-P >No one is "silenced." Fred is still posting, as egregrious and annoying >as ever. What we are asking him is to restrict his writings to >appropriate forums. Veil the words as you will, using the semantic sword of deception as your rallying point. You do not fool me. It is the *same* thing. You are attempting to restrict the forums in which he can post, that is equivalent (not identical) to silencing. >(Do you want me to drag out the tired old examples?) Should the KKK argue >racial purity in the newsgroup dedicated to black culture? That would be fun. >Should NAMBLA be discussed in the k12.* forums? Or should that >discussion be in the sexual politics newsgroup? Wouldn't you learn more from the former than the latter? -- Dave Hayes -- Institutional NETworks - Section 394 -- JPL/NASA - Pasadena CA dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov ...usc!elroy!dxh He is truly wise who gains wisdom from another's mishap. >From comp.org.eff.talk Wed Jul 12 09:04:43 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!hookup!hudson.lm.com!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!netaxs.com!grendel From: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) Newsgroups: soc.motss,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Followup-To: comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Date: 11 Jul 1995 11:16:33 GMT Organization: International Dark Skies Lines: 16 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3ttmih$ilb@netaxs.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3th1m5$e43@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tribs$a0t@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3trk64$8bd@panix2.panix.com> <3tt6cp$p6f@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> Reply-To: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) NNTP-Posting-Host: unix3.netaxs.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:308532 comp.org.eff.talk:58015 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6985 Newsgroups hacked. Followups locked. In article <3tt6cp$p6f@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov>, Dave Hayes (dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov) wrote: > There, you see? Find an unpopular topic, attempt to discuss it, > and people cry for the loss of access of the person attempting such. > If the topic was popular, this wouldn't occur. If they discussed the topic *in* *the* *appropriate* *place* no one would be complaining. They lose their access because they persist in being idiots and bringing up the topic where such discussions are not welcome. QED. -- Michael Handler Philadelphia, PA Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 12 09:04:43 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!hookup!news.moneng.mei.com!uwm.edu!msunews!netnews.upenn.edu!netaxs.com!grendel From: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 11 Jul 1995 12:12:03 GMT Organization: International Dark Skies Lines: 61 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3ttpqj$ilb@netaxs.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3thtoj$eec@panix3.panix.com> <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tj09t$nrb@netaxs.com> <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com> <3tongp$q8f@netaxs.com> <3tr7m0$d7n@netaxs.com> <3tt6lu$pbi@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> Reply-To: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) NNTP-Posting-Host: unix3.netaxs.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:57078 comp.org.eff.talk:58016 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6986 In article <3tt6lu$pbi@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov>, Dave Hayes (dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov) wrote: > >No one is "silenced." Fred is still posting, as egregrious and annoying > >as ever. What we are asking him is to restrict his writings to > >appropriate forums. > Veil the words as you will, using the semantic sword of deception as your > rallying point. You do not fool me. It is the *same* thing. You are > attempting to restrict the forums in which he can post, that is > equivalent (not identical) to silencing. Fred can still post to any newsgroup he wants, as long as what he posts on charter. All we want is that he posts his screeds to *on-topic* newsgroups, ferchrissakes. He is not being "silenced" in any way. > >(Do you want me to drag out the tired old examples?) Should the KKK argue > >racial purity in the newsgroup dedicated to black culture? > That would be fun. Glad to hear you think so. Imagine, for a second, that there are two subsets of the active posters on the black culture newsgroup. One set is interested in discussing black culture, in all its varied forms. The other set is interested in arguing against the racist nonsense of the KKK and the racial-purity / "mud people" folks. I'd imagine after the second flamewar, the people who are interested in discussing culture might get really annoyed at the perpetual flamewars, especially if everyone else already has made up their mind on the topic, and really isn't interested about hearing it again. Wouldn't it make sense to create two newsgroups, then? One about black culture, and one where people could argue racial politics? That way, the people who want to read about culture could read about culture, and people who want to read about racial politics could read about racial politics, and people who want to read both can read both. That's what Usenet is about: placing a coherent structure on discussion groups, so that people can find the kind of traffic they're interested in, and don't read the stuff they're not interested in. Understand? Good. Because this is how it is with homosexuality on the net today. There's , which is general discussions about homosexuality, and , which is where you can argue to your heart's content about whether the Bible condemns fags or not. This works pretty well, usually -- it keeps the two forms of traffic separate, so you generally only see the kind of traffic you're interested in. Now, when someone like Fred Cherry persists in dropping his spew into , he breaks down this social system and contributes to the destruction of both newsgroups. > >Should NAMBLA be discussed in the k12.* forums? Or should that > >discussion be in the sexual politics newsgroup? > Wouldn't you learn more from the former than the latter? The issue is not if I would learn more. The issue is that, while the topic is appopriate to the subject matter at hand, people are not interested in watching the same old flamewars rehashed while they're trying to have coherent constructive new conversations. -- Michael Handler Philadelphia, PA Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 12 09:04:43 1995 Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsie.dmc.com!spdcc!fj From: fj@spdcc.com (FJ!!) Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Message-ID: Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tribs$a0t@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3trk64$8bd@panix2.panix.com> <3tt6cp$p6f@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> Distribution: inet Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 13:38:22 GMT Lines: 14 Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:308683 alt.censorship:57136 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32297 comp.org.eff.talk:58051 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7046 In article <3tt6cp$p6f@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov>, Dave Hayes wrote: >There, you see? Find an unpopular topic, attempt to discuss it, >and people cry for the loss of access of the person attempting such. > >If the topic was popular, this wouldn't occur. >Is that what Usenet is coming to? The topic that people with same-sex attractions are scum and should be shot is very, very popular on Usenet, and you can discuss it in many many places without complaints. Just not on soc.motss. Do try to keep up. FJ!! >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 12 09:04:43 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!hookup!panix!not-for-mail From: shore@nomt.com (Melinda Shore) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 11 Jul 1995 10:17:38 -0400 Organization: No Mountain Software Lines: 14 Sender: shore@panix.com Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tu162$kol@panix2.panix.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tribs$a0t@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3trk64$8bd@panix2.panix.com> <3tt6cp$p6f@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> Reply-To: shore@nomt.com NNTP-Posting-Host: panix2.panix.com Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:308557 alt.censorship:57082 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32291 comp.org.eff.talk:58018 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:6990 In article <3tt6cp$p6f@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov>, Dave Hayes wrote: >There, you see? Find an unpopular topic, attempt to discuss it, >and people cry for the loss of access of the person attempting such. Swell, only there are several other newsgroups devoted to the discussion of whether or not homosexuality is legitimate. It's as appropriate to soc.motss as it is to comp.unix.wizards; I suspect that you're among a very, very small minority who would enjoy seeing it discussed in the latter. -- Melinda Shore - No Mountain Software - shore@nomt.com If you send me harassing email, I'll probably post it >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 12 09:04:43 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntp.montagar.com!davidc From: davidc@montagar.com (David L. Cathey) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Message-ID: <1995Jul11.102932.20665@montagar> Date: 11 Jul 95 10:29:32 CDT References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3th1m5$e43@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tt6cp$p6f@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> Distribution: inet Organization: Montagar Software Concepts, Plano TX Lines: 29 Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:308578 alt.censorship:57087 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32293 comp.org.eff.talk:58025 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7000 In article <3tt6cp$p6f@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov>, dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes: > shore@nomt.com (Melinda Shore) writes: >>Carl M Kadie wrote: >>>Actually, I don't have as much problem with topic restrictions, only >>>viewpoint restrictions. >>Well, guess what? The soc.motss charter precludes >>discussion of the "legitimacy" of homosexuality. As it >>happens, the only people who seem to want to discuss that >>are people who appear to be bigots. > > There, you see? Find an unpopular topic, attempt to discuss it, > and people cry for the loss of access of the person attempting such. > > If the topic was popular, this wouldn't occur. Dave, Dave, Dave... You're completely forgetting something. Homosexual bigotry (which is what they are trying to avoid) IS popular with some people! The "cry for the loss of access" is against the person(s) who are trying to prevent discussion of the unpopular topic (i.e. homosexuality). > Is that what Usenet is coming to? What? People against popular topics? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - David L. Cathey |Inet: davidc@montagar.com Montagar Software Concepts |UUCP: ...!montagar!davidc P. O. Box 260776 |Fone: (214)-578-5036 Plano TX 75026-0772 |http://www.montagar.com/~davidc/ >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 12 09:04:43 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx10.cs.du.edu!not-for-mail From: anon2c9e@nyx10.cs.du.edu (henry) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 11 Jul 1995 13:22:22 -0600 Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci. Lines: 62 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tuj1e$3tr@nyx10.cs.du.edu> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tongp$q8f@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: nyx10.cs.du.edu Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:57119 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32295 comp.org.eff.talk:58040 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7030 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In article , Rich Gibson wrote: >Michael Handler (grendel@netaxs.com) wrote: >: In article , >: Rich Gibson (drahcirr@netcom.com) wrote: >: > What a clueless fuck! Gawds, is everyone in soc.motss this _clueless_? > >: No, but we all have guns and we know where you live. > >So, you would meet words with violence? That seems like a tolerant >attitude... aw, c'mon you bozo, it's obvious that he was being a thing called 'ironic' which used to be understood by supposedly-educated people. >Had you argued that it was not a matter of rights I might have been abel >to respect your view, but what you have written is that in the general >case a group can silence an individual if that individual intrudes on >their 'comfort.' not really. pointing out that 'alt.politics.homosexuality' is the proper newsgroup to vent his agenda is not in any way silencing his freedom to speak. it is simply questioning his no doubt piss-poor judgment in choosing soc.motss as a pool to piss in. >Under that view, why should Gays have rights? After all, many people >feel dicomfitted by confronting homosexuality. do you usually specialize in bogus nonsense like this, or is this an aberration that we may hope you won't repeat? >So, I believe that your intolerance is no better than The Christian >Coalition... for real? ok, you tell us the next time that queers try to censor 'to kill a mockingbird' censor 'ulysses' or harass mapplethorpe, why don't you? h - -- SUPPORT THE DENNIS ERLICH DEFENSE FUND! READ ALT.RELIGION.SCIENTOLOGY! Send checks to MORRISON & FOERSTER, 345 California Street, San Francisco, California 94104-2675. Telephone: (415) 677-7000 Fax: (415) 677-7522 Contact People: Carla Oakley and Katie Walsh. MAKE SURE YOU LABEL YOUR CHECK "DENNIS ERLICH DEFENSE FUND". Checks should be made out to Morrison & Foerster. For verification of this info, email ssteele@eff.org (Shari Steele) SAVE THE REV! [ For Public Key: finger anon2c9e@nyx10.cs.du.edu ] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6 iQCVAwUBMAHaxNOUGUXWNqytAQElPgP+MKxA4NE3+XqgeiGO5C7s4wPsN4YkqVWa I+W/yNx5BbBKzmUPxFgy0wDMpnX2mbcg0DJKm+FkzZ4Tsn+4lrSd50aSZJmGVOZL 5Ek9nN+FarwGV2FRxUVuZ1YCwUHnUc5Gd2iJLPxaSv9r7D33RXXjIAjYzVVHxbAY 0M1+QmzfJ6c= =QIya -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 12 09:04:43 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx10.cs.du.edu!not-for-mail From: anon2c9e@nyx10.cs.du.edu (henry) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.sex,alt.sex.services Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 11 Jul 1995 13:26:22 -0600 Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci. Lines: 142 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tuj8u$4bn@nyx10.cs.du.edu> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tgnju$hdm@interport.net> <3tgrk9$4ph@classic.iinet.com.au> <3tp7kh$qov@interport.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: nyx10.cs.du.edu Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:308649 alt.censorship:57120 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32296 comp.org.eff.talk:58041 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7031 alt.sex:251271 alt.sex.services:15217 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- [Newsgroups: line utterly untouched because i've become disgusted with the whole concept. when debating with speedbumps, it appears that these things don't matter.] [i did insist on fixing that wretched 'Distribution: inet' thing.] In article <3tp7kh$qov@interport.net>, Fred Cherry wrote: rod swift sez: >>This is completely different to your modus operandi and intent >>when you post to soc.motss. >Izatso? yep. completely. you're a liar. your purpose in soc.motss is to disrupt it, because you are a fool who feels that your need to spread hatred and bigotry outweighs the needs of tens of thousands of people to have a space to discuss themselves. you are a lunatic, a charter-flouting jerk-off who egomanically spreads hate on usenet, and you are, indeed, one of the most despicable creatures of whom i say that you have the right to speak your mind. do not confuse the fact that i support your right to free speech with any kind of affection. if i had to deal with your suppressive, vicious assaults in person, it is likely that i would be forced to eject you from my property. indeed, your presence on my property would tend to make me feel like reaching for firearms and demanding your immediate ejection. you are, indeed, the sort of vermin who does not deserve common courtesy, and you are enjoined never to darken my doorstep. nevertheless, even the worst scum, even the most demented lunatics, should be able to air their views on usenet, so that they may through wide exposure be revealed as pathetic and idiotic, as in your case the epitome of revolting nonsense. you seemed proud of saying 'fag,' as if this is some sort of an accomplishment, and indeed utterly made a fool of yourself by revealing that you judge ten percent of humanity by the words of andrea dworkin. i am forced to revile you as an imbecile and the sort of vicious scum who would not have uttered a word of protest as hitler gassed jews and sent queers to be slaughtered. THERE I SAID IT! I SAID 'HITLER!' but guess what? in your case, it's true. you are one of that complacent majority which is entirely content to sit by idly as your teenage children run rampant in the streets beating up queers with two-by-fours with nails in them. you are one of that complacent majority of white male elitists who are entirely content to deny that your place in society is entirely due to the color of your skin, your possession of a penis, and your sexual orientation. while denying your privilege, you attack those who are not protected by the hegemony of white male culture. you essentially represent lunatics and bigots, and indeed you and your posts are an accurate representation of bigotry. i would thank you for your clear elucidation of the thoughts of ignorant bigots everywhere, but i would prefer instead to describe in detail what scum you are. >Respect, you say? Well, folks, take a look at the material below >the dashed line. First of all Swift is posting to 8 newsgroups. He is jesus. i can't believe this. this fucking worthless idiot, a bigot who would smile happily as ten percent of the population were dragged off to death-camps, this absolute fucking scum is DARING to criticize rod swift for, for what? for posting to eight newsgroups. what a loser. i've posted to twenty or more and occasionally unwisely. it doesn't invalidate my views in the slightest, and indeed from the email i receive most of my intrusions into newsgroups aren't unwelcome. >actually trying to destroy a newsgroup, just because he doesn't like the bullshit. are you actually claiming that queers shouldn't be allowed in christian newsgroups on the grounds that queers couldn't possibly have a relationship with god? all i can say is, YOU ARE ONE SICK MOTHERFUCKER. >moderator. He is doing the exact same thing here that he objects to my >doing in soc.motss. And he certainly has no respect for anyone there who >doesn't agree with him. [various posts from rod swift deleted. they prove only that rod dared to criticize a policy of moderation. are you saying that you should be allowed to spout neo-nazi swill while rod isn't even allowed to criticize the moderator of a newsgroup? you make me sick.] considering that the main person there who doesn't agree with him is you, i agree with him. after all, what respect can i be expected to have toward a vicious, hateful bigot who despises the group to which i belong for no sane reason? despite the fact that i've done nothing to you, you're willing to insult me by calling me a fag and to sit by idly while i and others are persecuted. indeed, you admitted you make fag jokes and when you buy ben-gay you ask for ben-fag. how do you think saying a shitty thing like that affects someone who has just had to deal with their lover dying from aids? how do you think spouting disgusting hatred helps anyone? how do you justify spending so much time spreading hate against people who haven't done anything to you? are you proud of the fact that people you don't even know are chain-whipped by skinheads and scum and others motivated by rhetoric like yours? would you dare stare in the face of someone crippled by a vicious attack by homophobic bigots, very much like you, who instead of simply spreading hateful lies on the net, actually take words like yours to heart and enact the meaning of them in blood? please explain to me, somehow, that you're not the murderous scum you appear to be, but that you're the concerned citizen you appear once to have been in your life. h - -- SUPPORT THE DENNIS ERLICH DEFENSE FUND! READ ALT.RELIGION.SCIENTOLOGY! Send checks to MORRISON & FOERSTER, 345 California Street, San Francisco, California 94104-2675. Telephone: (415) 677-7000 Fax: (415) 677-7522 Contact People: Carla Oakley and Katie Walsh. MAKE SURE YOU LABEL YOUR CHECK "DENNIS ERLICH DEFENSE FUND". Checks should be made out to Morrison & Foerster. For verification of this info, email ssteele@eff.org (Shari Steele) SAVE THE REV! [ For Public Key: finger anon2c9e@nyx10.cs.du.edu ] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6 iQCUAwUBMALQSdOUGUXWNqytAQGl2gP1FIYeflGU/uneIA5i8yLIU6ajJIeMxzp9 cXqWH3PnCWEZO/1DtppuJmYOHCArkR9gFeK9H3YqmNGIB0xmo2XRoXOvJI8rgV95 WXoUJPvjqkL5eShUZ9bmU4PezY9mCW44Coj9KTaq/sOwuLQXMjr+sEZxzQe/x/QV uXSx2g2clA== =uYTB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >From comp.org.eff.talk Wed Jul 12 09:04:43 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!emf.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!noc.near.net!mercury.near.net!not-for-mail From: nmehl@bbnplanet.com (Nathan J. Mehl) Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 11 Jul 1995 22:03:36 GMT Organization: BBN Planet Corporation, Cambridge, MA Lines: 21 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tusfo$mmr@mercury.near.net> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tgn8n$1dd@classic.iinet.com.au> <3thgee$ikc@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tqflq$gaf@crl5.crl.com> <3tt5um$ouv@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: poblano.near.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950520BETA PL0] Xref: news.interport.net comp.org.eff.talk:58090 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7085 Dave Hayes (dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov) wrote in article <3tt5um$ouv@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov>: : [You must have known this would draw *me* into the fray.] I wouldn't bother with it. There are three primary mistakes being made by *everyone* involved in this thread: 1. Taking Fred Cherry seriously. 2. Taking soc.motss seriously. 3. Reading a group in the soc hierarchy. With that as the basis, hoping to get rational discussion of anything is in vain. Better to attempt to stage a production of "Marat/Sade" using the actual inmates of an actual asylum... -- -------{Nathan J. Mehl}--------------------{nmehl@bbnplanet.com}-------| | Ixnay on the ybercay! | |If you think I speak for my employer, they'll be happy to correct you.| |-------------{http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nmehl/home.html}--------------- >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 12 09:04:43 1995 Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!malgudi.oar.net!utnetw.utoledo.edu!lab1.newton.utoledo.edu!gsmith From: Gene Ward Smith Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship In-Reply-To: <3tmvvh$idg@panix3.panix.com> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Sender: news@utnetw.utoledo.edu (News Manager) Organization: University of Toledo References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tj09t$nrb@netaxs.com> <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com> <3tmvvh$idg@panix3.panix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 01:38:55 GMT Lines: 21 Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:57176 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32301 comp.org.eff.talk:58076 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7070 On 8 Jul 1995, Seth Breidbart wrote: > I never said that; I'm in favor of people keeping to newsgroup > charters, and newsgroups defending themselves against people who > don't. My point was that it's quite fair for a charter to say "don't > argue about X (either side)", while Carl was objecting to charters > that say "you can only post on one side of the issue". On soc.culture.jewish, only one "side" of the question "Jews: human or subhuman?" is acceptable. On soc.culture.african.american, only one side of the question "Blacks: human or subhuman?" is acceptable. On soc.motss, only one side of the question "Homosexuals: human or subhuman?" is acceptable. If Karl can't handle that, he can go fuck himself. Whether or not I human is not open for debate on soc.motss. -- Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/University of Toledo gsmith@newton.utoledo.edu >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 12 09:04:43 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!news.uoregon.edu!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!usenet From: dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 11 Jul 1995 19:18:44 -0700 Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory - Pasadena CA Lines: 17 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tvbe4$m87@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3th1m5$e43@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tt6cp$p6f@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <1995Jul11.102932.20665@montagar> NNTP-Posting-Host: elxr-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:308743 alt.censorship:57173 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32299 comp.org.eff.talk:58072 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7066 davidc@montagar.com (David L. Cathey) writes: >In article <3tt6cp$p6f@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov>, dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes: >> There, you see? Find an unpopular topic, attempt to discuss it, >> and people cry for the loss of access of the person attempting such. >> >> If the topic was popular, this wouldn't occur. >Dave, Dave, Dave... You're completely forgetting something. >Homosexual bigotry (which is what they are trying to avoid) IS popular with >some people! Not on Usenet it isn't. -- Dave Hayes -- Institutional NETworks - Section 394 -- JPL/NASA - Pasadena CA dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov ...usc!elroy!dxh He who has self-conceit in his head - Do not imagine that he will ever hear the truth. >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 12 09:04:43 1995 Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!malgudi.oar.net!utnetw.utoledo.edu!lab1.newton.utoledo.edu!gsmith From: Gene Ward Smith Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship In-Reply-To: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Sender: news@utnetw.utoledo.edu (News Manager) Organization: University of Toledo References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3thtoj$eec@panix3.panix.com> <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tj09t$nrb@netaxs.com> <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 02:21:43 GMT Lines: 30 Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:57177 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32302 comp.org.eff.talk:58077 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7071 On Sat, 8 Jul 1995, Rich Gibson wrote: > : Go away. Cherry is not wanted on soc.motss, and neither are you. > Hey, look, it is a clueless idiot! Drooling subhuman. > Gene, take a look at the headers in the message that you personally > posted...you posted in alt.censorship, amont other places. Tough. There isn't a single 'alt' group which deserves the kind of of consideration a soc group, and especially a long-established soc group with for a much-hated minority group, should get. > What a clueless fuck! Gawds, is everyone in soc.motss this _clueless_? Shut up, maggot. > The hell of it is that, believe it or not, I share more values with you > than with Fred Cherry, I just happen to have one value that you idiots > seem to lack-the belief that individual freedom is more important than > group comfort. If you think the Klan has the right to burn a cross on my front lawn, you are a bigot. -- Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/University of Toledo gsmith@newton.utoledo.edu >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 12 09:04:43 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!nntp.et.byu.edu!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!usenet From: dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 11 Jul 1995 19:24:34 -0700 Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory - Pasadena CA Lines: 34 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tvbp2$mce@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tribs$a0t@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3trk64$8bd@panix2.panix.com> <3tt6cp$p6f@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3tu162$kol@panix2.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: elxr-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:308747 alt.censorship:57174 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32300 comp.org.eff.talk:58073 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7068 shore@nomt.com (Melinda Shore) writes: >Dave Hayes wrote: >>There, you see? Find an unpopular topic, attempt to discuss it, >>and people cry for the loss of access of the person attempting such. >Swell, only there are several other newsgroups devoted >to the discussion of whether or not homosexuality is >legitimate. And how is someone to know whether newsgroup "x" is? Ah, yes. "Read the charter". Trouble is, as in this discussion, sometimes a crosspost brings one into the fray. Note the newsgroups this is being posted to. I might be off topic for soc.motss. Yet, this thread encompasess several newsgroups, and I found it in a newsgroup I frequent. Am I supposed to read the charter of each newsgroup on the above line, in the heat of posting mind you, and then determine the relavency for each? Methinks you ask too much of the average poster. >It's as appropriate to soc.motss as it is >to comp.unix.wizards; I suspect that you're among a >very, very small minority who would enjoy seeing it discussed >in the latter. I suspect that you suspect people of things not because of their identity, but because of their opposition to your agenda. 8-) FYI, I would not react positively or negatively to that situation. I don't read articles in comp.unix.wizards that don't interest me. -- Dave Hayes -- Institutional NETworks - Section 394 -- JPL/NASA - Pasadena CA dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov ...usc!elroy!dxh Our greatest fears are shadows of things that don't exist. >From comp.org.eff.talk Wed Jul 12 09:04:43 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!usenet From: dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) Newsgroups: soc.motss,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Followup-To: comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Date: 11 Jul 1995 19:31:04 -0700 Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory - Pasadena CA Lines: 37 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tvc58$mhq@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3th1m5$e43@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tribs$a0t@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3trk64$8bd@panix2.panix.com> <3tt6cp$p6f@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3ttmih$ilb@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: elxr-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:308754 comp.org.eff.talk:58075 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7069 grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) writes: >Newsgroups hacked. Followups locked. So you can get the last word, eh? 8-) >Dave Hayes (dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov) wrote: >> There, you see? Find an unpopular topic, attempt to discuss it, >> and people cry for the loss of access of the person attempting such. >> If the topic was popular, this wouldn't occur. >If they discussed the topic *in* *the* *appropriate* *place* no one would >be complaining. Why, of course. And if you find a suitable enough appropriate place, such that no one would want to be there, you can effectively silence ANY discussion without taking the rap for silencing it. Define "appropriate". >They lose their access because they persist in being >idiots and bringing up the topic where such discussions are not welcome. Let me translate, for the uninitiated unto the Usenet way: "They lose their access because they talk about things that tweak the wrong people's hot buttons." [An aside: I'm surprised at you "intellectuals". The most effective way to enslave a race is to divide them against each other over trivial issues, and then conquer them one by one. It used to be "white" vs "minority", now it's "gay" vs "anti-gay". Doesn't matter what labels you use, the intent and the results are the same. If both sides were more willing to talk things out, perhaps none of this need be happening. Yet, I suppose people enjoy strife, which is why this keeps happening.] -- Dave Hayes -- Institutional NETworks - Section 394 -- JPL/NASA - Pasadena CA dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov ...usc!elroy!dxh Wisdom (n.) - 1. Something you can learn without knowing it. >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 12 09:04:43 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!nntp.et.byu.edu!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!usenet From: dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc,soc.motss Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 11 Jul 1995 19:38:36 -0700 Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory - Pasadena CA Lines: 72 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tvcjc$mnc@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3thtoj$eec@panix3.panix.com> <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tj09t$nrb@netaxs.com> <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com> <3tongp$q8f@netaxs.com> <3tr7m0$d7n@netaxs.com> <3tt6lu$pbi@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3ttpqj$ilb@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: elxr-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:57178 comp.org.eff.talk:58078 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7072 soc.motss:308760 grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) writes: >Dave Hayes (dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov) wrote: >> >No one is "silenced." Fred is still posting, as egregrious and annoying >> >as ever. What we are asking him is to restrict his writings to >> >appropriate forums. >> Veil the words as you will, using the semantic sword of deception as your >> rallying point. You do not fool me. It is the *same* thing. You are >> attempting to restrict the forums in which he can post, that is >> equivalent (not identical) to silencing. >Fred can still post to any newsgroup he wants, as long as what he posts on >charter. And what if all newsgroups charters contain "Fred cannot post"? >All we want is that he posts his screeds to *on-topic* >newsgroups, ferchrissakes. He is not being "silenced" in any way. Then the best way to accomplish that is to manage your newsreading responsibily, and ignore his screeds unless they are on topic. Why is this simple thing so hard for people here to do? (Oh, I forgot. Usenet people *like* strife.) >> >(Do you want me to drag out the tired old examples?) Should the KKK argue >> >racial purity in the newsgroup dedicated to black culture? >> That would be fun. >Glad to hear you think so. Yeah, right. >Imagine, for a second, that there are two subsets of the active posters on >the black culture newsgroup. One set is interested in discussing black >culture, in all its varied forms. The other set is interested in arguing >against the racist nonsense of the KKK and the racial-purity / "mud >people" folks. Ok. Imagining...hey wait. This is already happening here! >I'd imagine after the second flamewar, the people who are >interested in discussing culture might get really annoyed at the >perpetual flamewars, especially if everyone else already has made up >their mind on the topic, and really isn't interested about hearing it >again. Then why, pray tell, do they even know that it is going on? If I wanted to stop talking about a topic, well...I'd...uh...stop! I wouldn't waste time reading anything on the subject. After a while, I wouldn't even know talk like that was continuing! >That's what Usenet is about: placing a coherent structure on discussion >groups, so that people can find the kind of traffic they're interested >in, and don't read the stuff they're not interested in. But when this is used as a bludgeon to free speech, it is no longer any sort of positive influence. Besides, after a while, you can only filter so much along the lines of interest, and people have to start taking responsibility for determining their own interest and making their own choices. >Now, when someone like Fred Cherry persists in dropping his spew into >, he breaks down this social system and contributes to the >destruction of both newsgroups. Honor demands that the people in soc.motss turn their backs on him. Otherwise, they let this one person destroy their social system. If they remove his access, that's a violation of his free speech. -- Dave Hayes -- Institutional NETworks - Section 394 -- JPL/NASA - Pasadena CA dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov ...usc!elroy!dxh If your own vice happens to be the search for virtue, recognize that it is so. >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 12 09:04:43 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!sundog.tiac.net!usenet From: Bob Donahue Newsgroups: alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc,soc.motss Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 12 Jul 1995 03:01:36 GMT Organization: Skepsis Research and Development Lines: 27 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tvdug$io1@sundog.tiac.net> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3thtoj$eec@panix3.panix.com> <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tj09t$nrb@netaxs.com> <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com> <3tongp$q8f@netaxs.com> <3tr7m0$d7n@netaxs.com> <3tt6lu$pbi@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3ttpqj$ilb@netaxs.com> <3tvcjc$mnc@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: omphalos.skepsis.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (X11; I; BSD/386 1.1 i386) X-URL: news:3tvcjc$mnc@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:57182 comp.org.eff.talk:58079 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7076 soc.motss:308766 dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) wrote: >grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) writes: >>Dave Hayes (dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov) wrote: >>> >No one is "silenced." Fred is still posting, as egregrious and annoying >>> >as ever. What we are asking him is to restrict his writings to >>> >appropriate forums. >>> Veil the words as you will, using the semantic sword of deception as your >>> rallying point. You do not fool me. It is the *same* thing. You are >>> attempting to restrict the forums in which he can post, that is >>> equivalent (not identical) to silencing. >>Fred can still post to any newsgroup he wants, as long as what he posts on >>charter. > >And what if all newsgroups charters contain "Fred cannot post"? But they don't. In the specific example, Fred or anyone else can post whatever they want wrt homosexuality on alt.politics.homosexuality without fear of worrying about charter violations. So, now that that's settled, you're happy - right? Good! BBC >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 12 09:04:43 1995 Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!drahcirr From: drahcirr@netcom.com (Rich Gibson) Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Message-ID: Followup-To: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3thtoj$eec@panix3.panix.com> <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tj09t$nrb@netaxs.com> <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com> <3tongp$q8f@netaxs.com> <3tr7m0$d7n@netaxs.com> Distribution: inet Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 03:37:11 GMT Lines: 67 Sender: drahcirr@netcom.netcom.com Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:57187 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32304 comp.org.eff.talk:58083 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7079 Michael Handler (grendel@netaxs.com) wrote: : In article , : Rich Gibson (drahcirr@netcom.com) wrote: : > So, it would appear that you are arguing that the comfort of one group is : > more important than the rights of an individual? : Usenet is not a right. Actually, if you had read the post that I just responded to, it made _No_ mention of the net... : By your logic, I should be able to post anything I want anywhere I want. : This might work if Usenet was a public resource. It is not. Usenet : belongs to no one, and you have no "rights" upon Usenet. : I really wish you moderated a newsgroup, so I could start forging : postings to it. After all, isn't the rights of an individual more : important than the comfort of a group? Hmmm? What is the connection between forging to a moderated group, and posting to an open group? : > Had you argued that it was not a matter of rights I might have been able : > to respect your view, but what you have written is that in the general : > case a group can silence an individual if that individual intrudes on : > their 'comfort.' : No one is "silenced." Fred is still posting, as egregrious and annoying : as ever. What we are asking him is to restrict his writings to : appropriate forums. Did you read my message? Reread the part above. The message I responded to argued that the view that an invidual's rights being important than group comfort was 'Randian.' Why not answer the question, in what way would _ignoring_ Fred Cherry be a problem? Are you so unsure of your group identity that one hated person can destroy your group? : (Do you want me to drag out the tired old examples?) Should the KKK argue : racial purity in the newsgroup dedicated to black culture? Or should they : take it to the racial politics newsgroup? Should NAMBLA be discussed in : the k12.* forums? Or should that discussion be in the sexual politics : newsgroup? : You're claiming that telling someone to take the discussion to an : appropriate forum is "silencing" them. It's not. I really hope you can : understand this concept. Reread the thread! : > So, I believe that your intolerance is no better than The Christian : > Coalition... : And I believe that your ISP surgically removed your sense of perspective : when you signed up. But that's just a peeve of mine. Ignore him if you don't like him. -- Rich Gibson drahcirr@netcom.com [\] PADI DM Candidate -------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you can't trust me with a choice, how can you trust me with an Hawaiian pizza? >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 12 09:04:43 1995 Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!drahcirr From: drahcirr@netcom.com (Rich Gibson) Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Message-ID: Followup-To: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tongp$q8f@netaxs.com> <3tuj1e$3tr@nyx10.cs.du.edu> Distribution: inet Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 03:53:33 GMT Lines: 78 Sender: drahcirr@netcom.netcom.com Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:57188 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32305 comp.org.eff.talk:58084 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7081 henry (anon2c9e@nyx10.cs.du.edu) wrote: : -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- : In article , : Rich Gibson wrote: : >Michael Handler (grendel@netaxs.com) wrote: : >: In article , : >: Rich Gibson (drahcirr@netcom.com) wrote: : >: > What a clueless fuck! Gawds, is everyone in soc.motss this _clueless_? : > : >: No, but we all have guns and we know where you live. : > : >So, you would meet words with violence? That seems like a tolerant : >attitude... : aw, c'mon you bozo, it's obvious that he was being a thing called : 'ironic' which used to be understood by supposedly-educated people. The rest of the post did not make it clear that he was being ironic. Why should Michael's 'insensitive' rant be supported because he is 'one of the group' while Fred's posts are slammed? : >Had you argued that it was not a matter of rights I might have been abel : >to respect your view, but what you have written is that in the general : >case a group can silence an individual if that individual intrudes on : >their 'comfort.' : not really. pointing out that 'alt.politics.homosexuality' is the : proper newsgroup to vent his agenda is not in any way silencing his : freedom to speak. it is simply questioning his no doubt piss-poor : judgment in choosing soc.motss as a pool to piss in. Michael's post actually made no mention of usenet...he seemed to be arguing as I wrote, group 'comfort' can be legitimate cause to interfere with an individual's rights. Do you also argee with this Orwellian view of freedom? : >Under that view, why should Gays have rights? After all, many people : >feel dicomfitted by confronting homosexuality. : do you usually specialize in bogus nonsense like this, or is this : an aberration that we may hope you won't repeat? Nice of you to remove the context. Michael's post seemed to me to be a very clear argument in favor of group power to limit others based on the group being discomfitted. By another word this is the sort of PC crap that has descended on us like a sick cloud. The only way, in my view, that Gay, Lesbian, Bi, and trans gender individuals will be able to get their rightful respect is to be able to stand up to the worst in society, like Fred, and be strong in self. As another point, it is only through a strong commitment to free speech, and civil rights, that Gay, Lesbian, Bi, and trans gendered people have been able to get as far as they have is BECAUSE we don't live in a complete police state that would ban those who are different. : >So, I believe that your intolerance is no better than The Christian : >Coalition... : for real? : ok, you tell us the next time that queers try to censor 'to kill : a mockingbird' censor 'ulysses' or harass mapplethorpe, why don't you? I do not believe that many 'different' people are more tolerant than the 'Christian' fucks... Tolerance and Gender Identity/sexual preference are not nearly as highly related as many in the gay community believe. What are people saying about Jessie Helms? -- Rich Gibson drahcirr@netcom.com [\] PADI DM Candidate -------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you can't trust me with a choice, how can you trust me with an Hawaiian pizza? >From comp.org.eff.talk Wed Jul 12 09:04:43 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!caen!msunews!netnews.upenn.edu!netaxs.com!grendel From: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) Newsgroups: soc.motss,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Followup-To: news.admin.net-abuse.misc Date: 12 Jul 1995 04:34:51 GMT Organization: Sub Rosa Software Lines: 49 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tvjdb$81e@netaxs.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tribs$a0t@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3trk64$8bd@panix2.panix.com> <3tt6cp$p6f@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3tu162$kol@panix2.panix.com> <3tvbp2$mce@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> Reply-To: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) NNTP-Posting-Host: unix2.netaxs.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:308801 comp.org.eff.talk:58107 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7094 Newsgroups edited. Followups set. Distribution: inet removed. In article <3tvbp2$mce@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov>, Dave Hayes (dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov) wrote: > Am I supposed to read the charter of each newsgroup on the above line, > in the heat of posting mind you, and then determine the relavency > for each? Yes. ("the heat of posting"? What are you doing, jerking off while you post? What kind of excuse is that? Does your sense of perspective and calm fly out the window when you post?) > Methinks you ask too much of the average poster. Too fucking bad. If they can't be bothered to check the newsgroups line and set followups, I don't want to see them on Usenet. [ ... ] > FYI, I would not react positively or negatively to that situation. > I don't read articles in comp.unix.wizards that don't interest me. Mmm-hmm. And what happens when every other thread is off-topic flame-nonsense? Or every other article in a thread you *are* interested in? You know what happens? I do. People get sick of sorting through the bullshit and leave the newsgroup, and it dies. I've seen it happen before. Maybe you with your mystical psychic powers can determine what articles will interest you before you read them, and thus ignore all the bullshit out there. But the rest of us can't. We have to at least scan the beginning of an article (5-7 seconds minimum, at least for me.) before we realize it's garbage and should be ignored. That's a waste of time and effort, and all it does is serve to make people frustrated. And until you actually get off your ass and write the mystical Dave Hayes Psychic AI Newsreader that you've been jerking off about for the last six months, and give us all of the abilities that you seemingly were blessed with at birth, that's the way it's going to be. So do something to change the situation, or as Consolidated once said, "I reckon you should shut the fuck up." Now, wouldn't this *all* be simpler if people like Fred could just keep postings in *relevant* newsgroups? -- Michael Handler Philadelphia, PA Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics In Search Of: archives of digitized / drawn / painted pictures of roses >From comp.org.eff.talk Wed Jul 12 09:04:43 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!caen!msunews!netnews.upenn.edu!netaxs.com!grendel From: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 12 Jul 1995 04:47:14 GMT Organization: Sub Rosa Software Lines: 62 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tvk4i$81e@netaxs.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3th1m5$e43@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tribs$a0t@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3trk64$8bd@panix2.panix.com> <3tt6cp$p6f@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3ttmih$ilb@netaxs.com> <3tvc58$mhq@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> Reply-To: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) NNTP-Posting-Host: unix2.netaxs.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.interport.net comp.org.eff.talk:58108 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7095 In article <3tvc58$mhq@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov>, Dave Hayes (dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov) wrote: > >Newsgroups hacked. Followups locked. > So you can get the last word, eh? 8-) No, because the thread had *lost* *relevance* to some of the newsgroups it was crossposted to, so I tried to insure it continued in other *more* *appropriate* forums. I read and as well, Dave. I was not trying to "get in the last word." [ ... ] > Why, of course. And if you find a suitable enough appropriate place, > such that no one would want to be there, you can effectively silence > ANY discussion without taking the rap for silencing it. Really? Look over in . Seem to be lots of people who are happy to be there and fight the same old fights over and over again. You're bringing up the ghettoization of discussion, Dave, and it doesn't apply here. gets just as much distribution as (mainly because it was created several years ago) -- it's just as good a forum. [ Maybe there should be a or somesuch in the Big Seven. I've toyed with the idea of proposing it... ] > Define "appropriate". Falls-within-the-bounds-of-the-newsgroup-charter. That was easy. Any other stupid questions? [ ... ] > Let me translate, for the uninitiated unto the Usenet way: "They lose > their access because they talk about things that tweak the wrong > people's hot buttons." Finish the translation, Dave. "They lose their access because they talk about things that tweak the wrong people's hot buttons in forums where such talk is explicitly prohibited." [ ... ] > If both sides were > more willing to talk things out, perhaps none of this need be happening. > Yet, I suppose people enjoy strife, which is why this keeps happening.] Fuck you, Hayes. When people stop perpetuating unprovoked violence against GLOB men and women, maybe you can think about bringing this up again. But until people stop bashing and killing GLOB folk, I really don't want to hear your fucking uninformed patronizing bullshit about how we aren't willing to "talk things out", or "enjoy strife." Idiot. -- Michael Handler Philadelphia, PA Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics In Search Of: archives of digitized / drawn / painted pictures of roses >From alt.censorship Wed Jul 12 09:04:44 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!darwin.sura.net!martha.utk.edu!panacea.phys.utk.edu!dbd From: dbd@panacea.phys.utk.edu (David DeLaney) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 12 Jul 1995 04:55:46 GMT Organization: Formerly U. Tenn. Knoxville/Physics Dept.; presently extremely dis Lines: 87 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tvkki$ol4@martha.utk.edu> References: <3tt6lu$pbi@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3ttpqj$ilb@netaxs.com> <3tvcjc$mnc@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: panacea.phys.utk.edu Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:57198 comp.org.eff.talk:58098 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7089 Soc.motss.removed *again*; this isn't on-charter there, Dave. Bogus "Distribution: inet" also removed. dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes: >>Fred can still post to any newsgroup he wants, as long as what he posts on >>charter. > >And what if all newsgroups charters contain "Fred cannot post"? Then he can make a new group alt.fredcherry.canpost-here, or start an entire new fredcherrypost.* hierarchy ... Can we at least *try* to use realistic examples before leaping straight for the Zen Jugular, Dave, please? >>All we want is that he posts his screeds to *on-topic* >>newsgroups, ferchrissakes. He is not being "silenced" in any way. > >Then the best way to accomplish that is to manage your newsreading >responsibily, and ignore his screeds unless they are on topic. They do, usually. They followup him back out of soc.motss and after a few newbies have also been persuaded to followup him back out of soc.motss, and after it's been impressed Yet Again on him that his stuff is Off-Topic In Soc.Motss [which, by now, usually requires intervention by his current sysadmin at _least_] he goes away for a while. Until the next time he decides soc.motss Needs To Hear His Crackpot Theories On Prostitution... Why is >this simple thing so hard for people here to do? (Oh, I forgot. Usenet >people *like* strife.) In this case, the foofaraw seems to have been started off by either Fred himself or that clueless wonder from the Society for AntiDefamation Of Whateverness crossposting to news.admin.* after Fred's sysadmins were once again contacted about his little "problem" with reading comprehension... >>I'd imagine after the second flamewar, the people who are >>interested in discussing culture might get really annoyed at the >>perpetual flamewars, especially if everyone else already has made up >>their mind on the topic, and really isn't interested about hearing it >>again. > >Then why, pray tell, do they even know that it is going on? Because they are not using the Dave Hayes IdEal OrdeR Psychic AI Newsreader which only presents posts _it_ knows you want to read, that's why. Can you like hurry up and get it out of beta-testing sometime soon? >If I wanted >to stop talking about a topic, well...I'd...uh...stop! Ha. I double-dog dare you. [And, being Dave Hayes, "wanting to stop talking about a topic" should be no problem whatsoever for you...] >>That's what Usenet is about: placing a coherent structure on discussion >>groups, so that people can find the kind of traffic they're interested >>in, and don't read the stuff they're not interested in. > >But when this is used as a bludgeon to free speech, it is no longer any >sort of positive influence. Think before posting, Dave. They're trying to bludgeon this particular speech out of soc.motss and *into* alt.politics.homosexuality, alt.homosexual, alt.flame.faggots, talk.politics.misc, talk.philosophy.misc, and talk.philosophy.libertarian where it *is* on-topic and thre are both thriving threads on the subject(s) and readers interested in participating in such a discussion. If this is against the Dave Hayes Perfect Free Speech Ideal then I don't think I really can think of you as someone I can intelligibly communicate with any more... >If they remove his access, that's a violation of his free speech. They only get his access removed to *get his attention*; nothing below that level *works* any more. If nice polite email to him, impolite email to him, nice polite followups saying "thanks but put this back in a.p.h", impolite flaming followups, etc., worked, they'd stop there. If silently ignoring him worked, they'd do it. It doesn't, *because he's crossposting*; the Clueless from the other groups extend the threads beyond all reason, because they are *also* clueless that they are posting off-topic to soc.motss [not that I'm lumping you in with "the clueless who extend threads beyond all reason" or anything, Dave...] Dave -- \/DavidDeLaneydbd@panacea.phys.utk.edu "It's not the pot thatgrows the flower It's not the clock thatslows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see Love isall it takes tomake a family" - R&P. Disclaimer: IMHO;VRbeableURLAP http://enigma.phys.utk.edu/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K. >From comp.org.eff.talk Wed Jul 12 09:04:44 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!caen!msunews!netnews.upenn.edu!netaxs.com!grendel From: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 12 Jul 1995 04:58:30 GMT Organization: Sub Rosa Software Lines: 47 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3tvkpm$81e@netaxs.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3thtoj$eec@panix3.panix.com> <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tj09t$nrb@netaxs.com> <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com> <3tongp$q8f@netaxs.com> <3tr7m0$d7n@netaxs.com> <3tt6lu$pbi@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3ttpqj$ilb@netaxs.com> <3tvcjc$mnc@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> Reply-To: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) NNTP-Posting-Host: unix2.netaxs.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.interport.net comp.org.eff.talk:58109 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7096 In article <3tvcjc$mnc@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov>, Dave Hayes (dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov) wrote: > >Fred can still post to any newsgroup he wants, as long as what he posts on > >charter. > And what if all newsgroups charters contain "Fred cannot post"? Az di bobe volt gehat beytsim volt zi geven mayn zeyde. > Then the best way to accomplish that is to manage your newsreading > responsibily, and ignore his screeds unless they are on topic. Why is > this simple thing so hard for people here to do? Normally, I do ignore idiots like Fred. But, new people are always climbing up the learning curve and joining Usenet. They haven't learned that the best defense is to ignore Fred, so they flame him. And he flames back. And other people join in. And before you know it, it's a 50+ response thread. More noise to drag down the group. > Then why, pray tell, do they even know that it is going on? If I wanted > to stop talking about a topic, well...I'd...uh...stop! I wouldn't waste > time reading anything on the subject. After a while, I wouldn't even know > talk like that was continuing! The point is that those postings are noise. Filtering noise when it permeates the newsgroup is time consuming and frustrating (unless we're psychick ghods like you). It contributes to the destruction of a newsgroup. > But when this is used as a bludgeon to free speech, it is no longer any > sort of positive influence. It's not a bludgeon to free speech. There is no right to free speech of Usenet. And there's certainly no right for Fred to try and force us to read his nonsense. > If they remove his access, that's a violation of his free speech. The people of didn't remove his access. His ISP removed his access. I disclaim all responsiblity for the actions of others. (Hi, Mara. If you want to chime in here and contribute to my muddle, go right ahead.) -- Michael Handler Philadelphia, PA Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics In Search Of: archives of digitized / drawn / painted pictures of roses >From comp.org.eff.talk Wed Jul 12 09:04:44 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!hookup!uwm.edu!msunews!netnews.upenn.edu!netaxs.com!grendel From: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 12 Jul 1995 11:51:05 GMT Organization: Sub Rosa Software Lines: 38 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3u0cv9$muv@netaxs.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3thtoj$eec@panix3.panix.com> <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tj09t$nrb@netaxs.com> <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com> <3tongp$q8f@netaxs.com> <3tr7m0$d7n@netaxs.com> Reply-To: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) NNTP-Posting-Host: unix3.netaxs.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.interport.net comp.org.eff.talk:58126 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7102 In article , Rich Gibson (drahcirr@netcom.com) wrote: > : Usenet is not a right. > Actually, if you had read the post that I just responded to, it made _No_ > mention of the net... The discussion we're having is in the context of the net. It's all about whether we have a "right" to post to Usenet newsgroups. I'm not interested in having a discussion about the rights of people in the world in general. > What is the connection between forging to a moderated group, and posting > to an open group? If I have the right to post to one group, I have the right to post to them all. At least in what I've seen you advocate. > Did you read my message? Reread the part above. The message I responded > to argued that the view that an invidual's rights being important than > group comfort was 'Randian.' I'm not going to argue philosophy with you. > Why not answer the question, in what way would _ignoring_ Fred Cherry be > a problem? Are you so unsure of your group identity that one hated > person can destroy your group? I normally *do* ignore Fred, except when he says something exceptionally stupid. The problem is that other people haven't learned to ignore him, and flame him every time he shows up. And it's always a new load of people each time, so it's nigh impossible to stop them before Fred's garbage permeates the group. And thus, the group is closer to destruction. -- Michael Handler Philadelphia, PA Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics In Search Of: archives of digitized / drawn / painted pictures of roses >From alt.censorship Thu Jul 13 06:43:58 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!hookup!newshost.marcam.com!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!not-for-mail From: sethb@panix.com (Seth Breidbart) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 12 Jul 1995 10:26:19 -0400 Organization: Society for the Promulgation of Cruelty to the Clueless Lines: 27 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3u0m2b$dkv@panix3.panix.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tmvvh$idg@panix3.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix3.panix.com Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:57242 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32313 comp.org.eff.talk:58130 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7105 In article , Gene Ward Smith wrote: >On 8 Jul 1995, Seth Breidbart wrote: > >> I never said that; I'm in favor of people keeping to newsgroup >> charters, and newsgroups defending themselves against people who >> don't. My point was that it's quite fair for a charter to say "don't >> argue about X (either side)", while Carl was objecting to charters >> that say "you can only post on one side of the issue". > >On soc.culture.jewish, only one "side" of the question "Jews: human or >subhuman?" is acceptable. On soc.culture.african.american, only one side >of the question "Blacks: human or subhuman?" is acceptable. On soc.motss, >only one side of the question "Homosexuals: human or subhuman?" is >acceptable. I disagree. I think neither side of those "issues" is on-topic in those newsgroups. It may happen, in practise, that postings on one side will tend to be ignored, while postings on the other side will tend to be flamed, but reactions are the exercise of the free speech of the participants, and not subject to control. >Whether or not I human is not open for debate on soc.motss. I agree. There are more appropriate newsgroups for that topic. :-) Seth >From alt.censorship Thu Jul 13 06:43:58 1995 Newsgroups: alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!malgudi.oar.net!utnetw.utoledo.edu!lab1.newton.utoledo.edu!gsmith From: Gene Ward Smith Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship In-Reply-To: <3tvkki$ol4@martha.utk.edu> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Sender: news@utnetw.utoledo.edu (News Manager) Organization: University of Toledo References: <3tt6lu$pbi@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3ttpqj$ilb@netaxs.com> <3tvcjc$mnc@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3tvkki$ol4@martha.utk.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 18:31:43 GMT Lines: 15 Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:57273 comp.org.eff.talk:58150 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7127 On 12 Jul 1995, David DeLaney wrote: > Think before posting, Dave. They're trying to bludgeon this particular > speech out of soc.motss and *into* alt.politics.homosexuality, > alt.homosexual, alt.flame.faggots, talk.politics.misc, > talk.philosophy.misc, and talk.philosophy.libertarian where it *is* > on-topic and thre are both thriving threads on the subject(s) and readers > interested in participating in such a discussion. You forgot comp.org.eff.talk, my current favorite dumping group unless and until Carl Kadie objects. I want his objection on the record. -- Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/University of Toledo gsmith@newton.utoledo.edu >From alt.censorship Thu Jul 13 06:43:58 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!noc.near.net!mercury.near.net!not-for-mail From: nmehl@bbnplanet.com (Nathan J. Mehl) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Followup-To: alt.dev.null Date: 12 Jul 1995 20:16:49 GMT Organization: BBN Planet Corporation, Cambridge, MA Lines: 18 Message-ID: <3u1ajh$di7@mercury.near.net> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3thtoj$eec@panix3.panix.com> <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tj09t$nrb@netaxs.com> <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: poblano.near.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950520BETA PL0] Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:57282 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7130 Gene Ward Smith (gsmith@newton.utoledo.edu) wrote in article : : Tough. There isn't a single 'alt' group which deserves the kind of of : consideration a soc group, and especially a long-established soc group : with for a much-hated minority group, should get. *guffaw* Now *that's* certainly the truth. After all, on alt groups, you at least *occasionally* see content. "The kind of consideration a ...long-established soc group...should get"? "rm -rf /var/spool/news/soc/" comes to mind instantly. -- -------{Nathan J. Mehl}--------------------{nmehl@bbnplanet.com}-------| | Ixnay on the ybercay! | |If you think I speak for my employer, they'll be happy to correct you.| |-------------{http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nmehl/home.html}--------------- >From alt.censorship Thu Jul 13 06:43:58 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.mathworks.com!zombie.ncsc.mil!news.gmi.edu!msunews!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.uwa.edu.au!classic.iinet.com.au!not-for-mail From: cub@iinet.com.au (Rod Swift) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 13 Jul 1995 07:40:40 +0800 Organization: iiNET Technologies Lines: 25 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3u1mho$ctq@jazz.iinet.com.au> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3thtoj$eec@panix3.panix.com> <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tj09t$nrb@netaxs.com> <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com> <3tongp$q8f@netaxs.com> <3tr7m0$d7n@netaxs.com> <3tt6lu$pbi@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3ttpqj$ilb@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: jazz.iinet.com.au X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #3 (NOV) Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:57340 comp.org.eff.talk:58190 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7150 grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) writes: >Fred can still post to any newsgroup he wants, as long as what he posts on >charter. All we want is that he posts his screeds to *on-topic* >newsgroups, ferchrissakes. He is not being "silenced" in any way. I am sure that Fred is proud of his Crusade(tm) Michael, as it seems that his endorsement of his posts on soc.motss must also apply to anti-Semitic posts being forward to soc.culture.jewish, mustn't it? Ah, Fred, if he understood what he would be achieving if he succeeded... Maybe I can start running around the internet calling him a Neo-Nazi, a holocaust apologist and an anti-Semite supporter, from the precedent that he will create with his garbage posts into soc.motss? Rod -- | ... ..... | E-mail: cub@iinet.com.au | ******* | | + + + + + + + + | http://nether.net/~rod/html/ | ***** | | * * * * * * * * | | *** | | R o d S w i f t |The Christian Right is neither| * | >From alt.censorship Thu Jul 13 06:43:58 1995 Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!malgudi.oar.net!utnetw.utoledo.edu!lab1.newton.utoledo.edu!gsmith From: Gene Ward Smith Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship In-Reply-To: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Sender: news@utnetw.utoledo.edu (News Manager) Organization: University of Toledo References: <3ra726$16b@dfw.net> <3ri72i$5nd@panix.com> <3s1t4i$eud@dfw.net> <3t55rv$7tk@interport.net> <3t586v$3ln@sundog.tiac.net> <3t7ptm$j20@sundog.tiac.net> <3te8hi$l0k@interport.net> <3teoii$4j8@sundog.tiac.net> <3tf4ae$122@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tfe1u$j4q@sundog.tiac.net> <3th1m5$e43@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tribs$a0t@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 00:14:09 GMT Lines: 20 Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:308983 alt.censorship:57303 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32320 comp.org.eff.talk:58161 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7143 On 10 Jul 1995, Joel B Levin wrote: > Funny how until recently the notion of "safe space" was pretty well > achieved, at least in this last bastion, simply through the > cooperative nature of Usenet. This charter has stood up well over > time. Written well before the notion of newgroup "charter" became > ubiquitous, its author doesn't even call it a charter: you can see it > dates from before the great renaming. Of course, if you think it is something not worth achieving--or if you propagandize the idea that it is a malignant evil, as Carl and some others seem to be doing--then it won't be achieved. I'm k00l. I'll just keep cross-posting to comp.org.eff.talk. The whole thing is a little strange, though. Someone on *Carl's* side of this debate sent a complaint to *my* sysadmin. -- Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/University of Toledo gsmith@newton.utoledo.edu >From comp.org.eff.talk Thu Jul 13 06:43:58 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!hookup!nntp.et.byu.edu!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!usenet From: dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,soc.motss,comp.org.eff.talk Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 12 Jul 1995 19:45:27 -0700 Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory - Pasadena CA Lines: 60 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3u21c7$od8@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tribs$a0t@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3trk64$8bd@panix2.panix.com> <3tt6cp$p6f@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3tu162$kol@panix2.panix.com> <3tvbp2$mce@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3tvjdb$81e@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: elxr-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: news.interport.net news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7146 soc.motss:309018 comp.org.eff.talk:58172 grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) writes: >Dave Hayes (dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov) wrote: >> Am I supposed to read the charter of each newsgroup on the above line, >> in the heat of posting mind you, and then determine the relavency >> for each? >Yes. Baloney. You can't reasonably expect that of a netnews poster. You can demand it, but there's too many people out there who don't even know what soc.motss *is*. >("the heat of posting"? What are you doing, jerking off while you post? Hey I have to blend in somewhat, if I am to communicate with you people. 8-) >What kind of excuse is that? Does your sense of perspective and calm fly >out the window when you post? No, but my desire to go read the charter of each group does. >> Methinks you ask too much of the average poster. >Too fucking bad. If they can't be bothered to check the newsgroups line >and set followups, I don't want to see them on Usenet. Oh how wonderfully elitist. Maybe they don't want to see you either. Who wins? And why? >[ ... ] >> FYI, I would not react positively or negatively to that situation. >> I don't read articles in comp.unix.wizards that don't interest me. >Mmm-hmm. And what happens when every other thread is off-topic >flame-nonsense? In that case, I laugh or ignore at my whim. >Or every other article in a thread you *are* interested in? Heard of the 'n' key? >You know what happens? I do. People get sick of sorting through the >bullshit and leave the newsgroup, and it dies. I've seen it happen before. If a newsgroup exists only by satisfying the arrogance of the people who would hold it hostage by leaving at the first sign of trouble, maybe it deserves to die. If you are truly interested in a subject, dweebs don't derail you. >out there. But the rest of us can't. We have to at least scan the >beginning of an article (5-7 seconds minimum, at least for me.) before we >realize it's garbage and should be ignored. That's a waste of time and >effort, and all it does is serve to make people frustrated. That's how it *is* here on usenet. Lots of articles and so little time. Complaining about the irrelavencies is irrelavent. Deal with it, or go bye-bye. -- Dave Hayes -- Institutional NETworks - Section 394 -- JPL/NASA - Pasadena CA dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov ...usc!elroy!dxh Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly. >From comp.org.eff.talk Thu Jul 13 06:43:58 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!hookup!nntp.et.byu.edu!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!usenet From: dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 12 Jul 1995 19:55:29 -0700 Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory - Pasadena CA Lines: 82 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3u21v1$okr@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3th1m5$e43@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tribs$a0t@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3trk64$8bd@panix2.panix.com> <3tt6cp$p6f@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3ttmih$ilb@netaxs.com> <3tvc58$mhq@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3tvk4i$81e@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: elxr-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: news.interport.net comp.org.eff.talk:58173 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7147 grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) writes: >Dave Hayes (dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov) wrote: >> >Newsgroups hacked. Followups locked. >> So you can get the last word, eh? 8-) >No, because the thread had *lost* *relevance* to some of the newsgroups >it was crossposted to, so I tried to insure it continued in other *more* >*appropriate* forums. But maybe the ones you deleted weren't inapprorpate to me? Maybe others in that group actually would like to see the responses? >[ ... ] >> Why, of course. And if you find a suitable enough appropriate place, >> such that no one would want to be there, you can effectively silence >> ANY discussion without taking the rap for silencing it. >Really? Look over in . Seem to be lots of >people who are happy to be there and fight the same old fights over and >over again. No thanks. Forums of Political Correctness or the lack thereof do not interest me. >You're bringing up the ghettoization of discussion, Dave, and it doesn't >apply here. gets just as much distribution >as (mainly because it was created several years ago) -- it's >just as good a forum. I wouldn't know if it did or it did not. Someone was kicked off a system because of something they said. That's *all* I need to know to enter a discussion. >> Define "appropriate". >Falls-within-the-bounds-of-the-newsgroup-charter. And such bounds are always objectively clear? Such bounds have clearly demarked lines? >[ ... ] >> Let me translate, for the uninitiated unto the Usenet way: "They lose >> their access because they talk about things that tweak the wrong >> people's hot buttons." >Finish the translation, Dave. >"They lose their access because they talk about things that tweak the >wrong people's hot buttons in forums where such talk is explicitly >prohibited." So you *admit* there is a Cabal! Hah! I *knew* it! "Wrong people" indeed. >[ ... ] >> If both sides were >> more willing to talk things out, perhaps none of this need be happening. >> Yet, I suppose people enjoy strife, which is why this keeps happening.] >Fuck you, Hayes. When people stop perpetuating unprovoked violence against >GLOB men and women, maybe you can think about bringing this up again. You just don't get it do you? It's not about GLOBs, blacks, muslims, jews, or anything else. It's about dividing people. It's about bending others to the will of people who live to control other people's lives. It's about distracting people from the insidious evil that perpetuates hate, giving them something to fight instead so that the hate feeds on itself. Forget "gay vs homophobe". Go look at an example that you aren't connected with. There are at least 100 in various newsgroups out there. >But until people stop bashing and killing GLOB folk, I really don't want to >hear your fucking uninformed patronizing bullshit about how we aren't >willing to "talk things out", or "enjoy strife." Idiot. I should have realized. This is the same phenomena. Since I am not gay, I am not allowed to talk about anything related to gay issues. I noticed this first with the blacks, and then with the native americans. Gays, being human, are no different. Forget I tried to say anything. -- Dave Hayes -- Institutional NETworks - Section 394 -- JPL/NASA - Pasadena CA dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov ...usc!elroy!dxh Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing. >From comp.org.eff.talk Thu Jul 13 06:43:58 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.math.psu.edu!psuvax1!psuvax1!flee From: flee@cse.psu.edu (Felix Lee) Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 13 Jul 1995 05:09:08 GMT Organization: Penn State Comp Sci & Eng Lines: 14 Distribution: inet Message-ID: References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3th1m5$e43@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tribs$a0t@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3trk64$8bd@panix2.panix.com> <3tt6cp$p6f@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3ttmih$ilb@netaxs.com> <3tvc58$mhq@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3tvk4i$81e@netaxs.com> <3u21v1$okr@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: modula.cse.psu.edu Xref: news.interport.net comp.org.eff.talk:58188 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7149 by the way, a recent Supreme Court ruling supports the contention that a newsgroup is allowed to kick out anyone they don't like. the argument is that freedom of speech applies to groups as well, and the ability of a group to select what the group is "saying" means that they can choose _not_ to say certain things, by denying people membership. this was the Boston something parade ruling, that allowed the parade organizers to deny a gay group membership in the parade. I'm glossing over some messy issues: it's not clear to me that the ruling for a parade can be applied to something as loosely structured as a newsgroup, but I see no particular reason for it not to apply. -- >From alt.censorship Thu Jul 13 06:43:59 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!usenet From: dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 12 Jul 1995 22:35:20 -0700 Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory - Pasadena CA Lines: 139 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3u2bao$rtl@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> References: <3tt6lu$pbi@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3ttpqj$ilb@netaxs.com> <3tvcjc$mnc@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3tvkki$ol4@martha.utk.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: elxr-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:57345 comp.org.eff.talk:58195 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7152 dbd@panacea.phys.utk.edu (David DeLaney) writes: >Soc.motss.removed *again*; this isn't on-charter there, Dave. Ah, and you discovered *how* to remove it. You didn't try to post your reply there while setting followups out. I *will* honor this. (Very good, for a cabal supporter...) >Bogus "Distribution: inet" also removed. But you didn't really remove it. It shows up here with that bogus distribution as well. Come to think of it, I didn't include such a distribution in with my post (never do). What gives? >dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes: >>>Fred can still post to any newsgroup he wants, as long as what he posts on >>>charter. >>And what if all newsgroups charters contain "Fred cannot post"? >Then he can make a new group alt.fredcherry.canpost-here, or start an >entire new fredcherrypost.* hierarchy ... Can we at least *try* to use >realistic examples before leaping straight for the Zen Jugular, Dave, please? No, that would be cheating. The point is, saying "you're off topic" is effectively used to silence people...thus it cannot be applied IMHO. We've argued this before. >>>All we want is that he posts his screeds to *on-topic* >>>newsgroups, ferchrissakes. He is not being "silenced" in any way. >>Then the best way to accomplish that is to manage your newsreading >>responsibily, and ignore his screeds unless they are on topic. >They do, usually. They followup him back out of soc.motss and after a few >newbies have also been persuaded to followup him back out of soc.motss, >and after it's been impressed Yet Again on him that his stuff is Off-Topic >In Soc.Motss In other words, some Soc.Motss patrons are sick of hearing him, so they use the convienent "off-topic" cry as a justifier. (I have no real problem with you not wanting him there, that just betrays a lack of wisdom. It's when you -force- him out that I get to jump on my high horse and scream as loud as you do.) >[which, by now, usually requires intervention by his current >sysadmin at _least_] he goes away for a while. Until the next time he >decides soc.motss Needs To Hear His Crackpot Theories On Prostitution... I suppose no one has tried -listening- to him as a human being (regardless of your thoughts otherwise) yet? I find that people with a Need go away once that Need is fulfilled. >>Why is this simple thing so hard for people here to do? (Oh, I forgot. Usenet >>people *like* strife.) >In this case, the foofaraw seems to have been started off by either Fred >himself or that clueless wonder from the Society for AntiDefamation Of >Whateverness crossposting to news.admin.* after Fred's sysadmins were >once again contacted about his little "problem" with reading comprehension... Hence the title of this thread. Sysadmins are not parents, nor are they counselors, and they sure as hell aren't psychologists. They are sysadmins. You people place them in these roles time and time again, from the Need to Silence those whom you do not Agree with. >>>I'd imagine after the second flamewar, the people who are >>>interested in discussing culture might get really annoyed at the >>>perpetual flamewars, especially if everyone else already has made up >>>their mind on the topic, and really isn't interested about hearing it >>>again. >>Then why, pray tell, do they even know that it is going on? >Because they are not using the Dave Hayes IdEal OrdeR Psychic AI Newsreader >which only presents posts _it_ knows you want to read, that's why. Can you >like hurry up and get it out of beta-testing sometime soon? Give me a chance to get it *in* beta testing. No one's ever written a newsreader in PERL before... 8-) (And I have other irons in the fire which are more important.) >>If I wanted >>to stop talking about a topic, well...I'd...uh...stop! >Ha. I double-dog dare you. Guess I lose. >[And, being Dave Hayes, "wanting to stop talking >about a topic" should be no problem whatsoever for you...] It's not a problem at all. I'm just not willing to stop talking about certain ones. >>>That's what Usenet is about: placing a coherent structure on discussion >>>groups, so that people can find the kind of traffic they're interested >>>in, and don't read the stuff they're not interested in. >>But when this is used as a bludgeon to free speech, it is no longer any >>sort of positive influence. >Think before posting, Dave. They're trying to bludgeon this particular >speech out of soc.motss and *into* alt.politics.homosexuality, alt.homosexual, >alt.flame.faggots, talk.politics.misc, talk.philosophy.misc, and >talk.philosophy.libertarian where it *is* on-topic and thre are both >thriving threads on the subject(s) and readers interested in participating in >such a discussion. Such a bludgeon does not deserve to smash anyone's internet access. >If this is against the Dave Hayes Perfect Free Speech Ideal >then I don't think I really can think of you as someone I can intelligibly >communicate with any more... Is this the same David DeLaney I've been arguing with for over 2 years? Have you even been reading what I've been saying? Are you trying to hold me hostage to your desired standard of argument? [Gee, you can't even handle a *polite* disagreement. No wonder you are up in arms against a homophobe.] >>If they remove his access, that's a violation of his free speech. >They only get his access removed to *get his attention* I don't care why they did it. That wasn't proper nor adhering to True Free Speech. >level *works* any more. If nice polite email to him, impolite email to him, >nice polite followups saying "thanks but put this back in a.p.h", impolite >flaming followups, etc., worked, they'd stop there. If silently ignoring >him worked, they'd do it. It doesn't, *because he's crossposting*; the >Clueless from the other groups extend the threads beyond all reason, >because they are *also* clueless that they are posting off-topic to soc.motss You can't seem to ignore what you don't like. I'd call what they are doing a grand lesson, teaching to you ignore what you don't like. They certainly aren't forcing you to read their articles. >[not that I'm lumping you in with "the clueless who extend threads beyond >all reason" or anything, Dave...] Oh, of course not. -- Dave Hayes -- Institutional NETworks - Section 394 -- JPL/NASA - Pasadena CA dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov ...usc!elroy!dxh The difference between a moral man and a man of honor is that the latter regrets a discreditable act, even when it has worked and he has not been caught. >From comp.org.eff.talk Thu Jul 13 06:43:59 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!nntp.et.byu.edu!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!usenet From: dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 12 Jul 1995 22:40:56 -0700 Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory - Pasadena CA Lines: 57 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3u2bl8$s32@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3thtoj$eec@panix3.panix.com> <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tj09t$nrb@netaxs.com> <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com> <3tongp$q8f@netaxs.com> <3tr7m0$d7n@netaxs.com> <3tt6lu$pbi@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3ttpqj$ilb@netaxs.com> <3tvcjc$mnc@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3tvkpm$81e@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: elxr-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: news.interport.net comp.org.eff.talk:58191 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7151 grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) writes: >Dave Hayes (dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov) wrote: >> >Fred can still post to any newsgroup he wants, as long as what he posts on >> >charter. >> And what if all newsgroups charters contain "Fred cannot post"? >Az di bobe volt gehat beytsim volt zi geven mayn zeyde. Hey, speak english. I did. >> Then the best way to accomplish that is to manage your newsreading >> responsibily, and ignore his screeds unless they are on topic. Why is >> this simple thing so hard for people here to do? >Normally, I do ignore idiots like Fred. But, new people are always >climbing up the learning curve and joining Usenet. They haven't learned >that the best defense is to ignore Fred, so they flame him. And he flames >back. And other people join in. And before you know it, it's a 50+ >response thread. More noise to drag down the group. So ignore any thread with >50 posts! D-uh.... The fundamental fallacy: noise drags down a group. That is the newsreader's fault, not the news posters. >> Then why, pray tell, do they even know that it is going on? If I wanted >> to stop talking about a topic, well...I'd...uh...stop! I wouldn't waste >> time reading anything on the subject. After a while, I wouldn't even know >> talk like that was continuing! >The point is that those postings are noise. Filtering noise when it >permeates the newsgroup is time consuming and frustrating (unless we're >psychick ghods like you). It contributes to the destruction of a newsgroup. If you follow this to it's logical conclusion, people would have to take tests in order to qualify to post in newsgroups. Is that what you want? >> But when this is used as a bludgeon to free speech, it is no longer any >> sort of positive influence. >It's not a bludgeon to free speech. Is too. (*sigh*) >There is no right to free speech of Usenet. Then Usenet is worthless. >And there's certainly no right for Fred to try and force us to >read his nonsense. He's not holding your eyes open with toothpicks, nor is he controlling your newsreader (if he is, you're trying to do the psychic thing the wrong way, I can help you with this. 8-)). No one can force you to read anything you don't want to. Period. -- Dave Hayes -- Institutional NETworks - Section 394 -- JPL/NASA - Pasadena CA dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov ...usc!elroy!dxh Sometimes what a person escapes to is worse than what they escapes from. >From comp.org.eff.talk Fri Jul 14 14:02:12 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!hookup!news.mathworks.com!zombie.ncsc.mil!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!netaxs.com!grendel From: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 13 Jul 1995 05:45:13 GMT Organization: Sub Rosa Software Lines: 27 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3u2bt9$hc@netaxs.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3th1m5$e43@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tribs$a0t@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3trk64$8bd@panix2.panix.com> <3tt6cp$p6f@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3ttmih$ilb@netaxs.com> <3tvc58$mhq@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3tvk4i$81e@netaxs.com> <3u21v1$okr@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> Reply-To: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) NNTP-Posting-Host: unix3.netaxs.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.interport.net comp.org.eff.talk:58206 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7160 In article <3u21v1$okr@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov>, Dave Hayes (dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov) wrote: > I wouldn't know if it did or it did not. Someone was kicked off a system > because of something they said. That's *all* I need to know to enter a > discussion. Which would explain your utter disregard for the other, mitigating factors involved in the incident. Do you always enter discussions with blinders on? > >> Define "appropriate". > >Falls-within-the-bounds-of-the-newsgroup-charter. > And such bounds are always objectively clear? Such bounds have clearly > demarked lines? They are and do in this case. If there's a case in the future where it's not so clear, people can debate until a consensus arises. [ .. ] > Forget I tried to say anything. Easy enough. -- Michael Handler Philadelphia, PA Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics In Search Of: archives of digitized / drawn / painted pictures of roses >From comp.org.eff.talk Fri Jul 14 14:02:12 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!netaxs.com!grendel From: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 13 Jul 1995 10:26:15 GMT Organization: Sub Rosa Software Lines: 26 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3u2sc7$b61@netaxs.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3th1m5$e43@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> Reply-To: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) NNTP-Posting-Host: unix2.netaxs.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.interport.net comp.org.eff.talk:58209 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7164 In article , Felix Lee (flee@cse.psu.edu) wrote: > by the way, a recent Supreme Court ruling supports the contention that > a newsgroup is allowed to kick out anyone they don't like. What? [ ... ] > this was the Boston something parade ruling, that allowed the parade > organizers to deny a gay group membership in the parade. [... ] > I'm glossing over some messy issues: it's not clear to me that the > ruling for a parade can be applied to something as loosely structured > as a newsgroup, but I see no particular reason for it not to apply. Um, how about the group that administers the parade is a formal, registered organization with a roster of members, while the readership of a newsgroup is not? I am highly skeptical that any laws that apply to formal organizations can be stretched (and it is a stretch to do this) to also apply to Usenet newsgroups. Lemme guess. YANAL, right? -- Michael Handler(); Philadelphia, PA Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics In Search Of: archives of digitized / drawn / painted pictures of roses >From alt.censorship Fri Jul 14 14:02:12 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx10.cs.du.edu!not-for-mail From: anon2c9e@nyx10.cs.du.edu (henry) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Followup-To: alt.censorship,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Date: 13 Jul 1995 04:48:22 -0600 Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci. Lines: 86 Message-ID: <3u2tlm$5fh@nyx10.cs.du.edu> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tt6lu$pbi@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3ttpqj$ilb@netaxs.com> <3tvcjc$mnc@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: nyx10.cs.du.edu Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:57358 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7159 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- [soc.motss and comp.org.eff.talk utterly removed from Newsgroups: line, even though it's a futile, empty gesture] In article <3tvcjc$mnc@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov>, Dave Hayes wrote: >And what if all newsgroups charters contain "Fred cannot post"? this is such an outrageous straw man it's not worth discussing. please detail the circumstances which could lead to every one of the thousands of newsgroups having 'fred cannot post' in their charters. you have loons in your attic. >>All we want is that he posts his screeds to *on-topic* >>newsgroups, ferchrissakes. He is not being "silenced" in any way. >Then the best way to accomplish that is to manage your newsreading >responsibily, and ignore his screeds unless they are on topic. Why is >this simple thing so hard for people here to do? (Oh, I forgot. Usenet >people *like* strife.) an even better way to accomplish it would be if someone got through to fred that his asshole behavior is antisocial and vicious, and he ought to take it to the appropriate newsgroup. most people who aren't utter sociopaths will eventually agree to do this, but cherry has been relentlessly degrading the signal-to-noise ratio on soc.motss for years and years. >>Now, when someone like Fred Cherry persists in dropping his spew into >>, he breaks down this social system and contributes to the >>destruction of both newsgroups. >Honor demands that the people in soc.motss turn their backs on him. >Otherwise, they let this one person destroy their social system. honor demands that fred abide by newsgroup charters. he is not a man of honor. he is a vicious, cowardly liar who is whining about censorship because his nasty little spam campaign backfired on him. >If they remove his access, that's a violation of his free speech. bullshit. first off, your paranoia is showing again. there is no 'they' who can remove his access. only a sysadmin can do that, and just as a restaurant or any private establishment is legally allowed to forbid rude conduct or refuse to serve a loud and obnoxious patron, an isp is allowed to institute any acceptable use policy it feels is proper. some people, like canter and siegel, have been so recalcitrant in their continual net abuse that indeed they have been more or less driven off the net and deprived of the ability to continue to abuse the net. others, like fred cherry, lurk right at the borderline of what you can get away with without being kicked off the net. i submit as evidence that the bozo is still posting his vicious libels and calumnies. h - -- SUPPORT THE DENNIS ERLICH DEFENSE FUND! READ ALT.RELIGION.SCIENTOLOGY! Send checks to MORRISON & FOERSTER, 345 California Street, San Francisco, California 94104-2675. Telephone: (415) 677-7000 Fax: (415) 677-7522 Contact People: Carla Oakley and Katie Walsh. MAKE SURE YOU LABEL YOUR CHECK "DENNIS ERLICH DEFENSE FUND". Checks should be made out to Morrison & Foerster. For verification of this info, email ssteele@eff.org (Shari Steele) SAVE THE REV! [ For Public Key: finger anon2c9e@nyx10.cs.du.edu ] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6 iQCVAwUBMAT51tOUGUXWNqytAQEaKwQAgalIN0Ell1RKoVAkfjKg5BLnLs3A2ZPq I0sMgd6y/BLSqpBNIzvonhRaGnByKB1BQIfEm4yDIxkIpkRyTME+IcDs//+eokpe Wot9cmPH4W9CbNkg/sAvlcEohjcecN0HU4I5D+DpUZ36H7ZWcSgUg7az/GkAUOGI POczginBSeU= =DlRJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >From alt.censorship Fri Jul 14 14:02:12 1995 Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!drahcirr From: drahcirr@netcom.com (Rich Gibson) Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Message-ID: Followup-To: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 16:46:38 GMT Lines: 22 Sender: drahcirr@netcom14.netcom.com Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:309181 alt.censorship:57388 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32330 comp.org.eff.talk:58234 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7177 Gene Ward Smith (gsmith@newton.utoledo.edu) wrote: : Of course, if you think it is something not worth achieving--or if you : propagandize the idea that it is a malignant evil, as Carl and some others : seem to be doing--then it won't be achieved. : I'm k00l. I'll just keep cross-posting to comp.org.eff.talk. The whole : thing is a little strange, though. Someone on *Carl's* side of this : debate sent a complaint to *my* sysadmin. I assume that you are referring my complaint to your postmaster over your abuse of e-mail. It is too bad that you damage your legitimate cause (that it is good to stay on topic in a newsgroup) by your inability to discriminate between a 'public' usenet posting and harrasment of a private individual through e-mail. -- Rich Gibson drahcirr@netcom.com [\] PADI DM Candidate -------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you can't trust me with a choice, how can you trust me with an Hawaiian pizza? >From alt.censorship Fri Jul 14 14:02:12 1995 Newsgroups: alt.censorship,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!drahcirr From: drahcirr@netcom.com (Rich Gibson) Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tt6lu$pbi@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3ttpqj$ilb@netaxs.com> <3tvcjc$mnc@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3u2tlm$5fh@nyx10.cs.du.edu> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 17:05:42 GMT Lines: 92 Sender: drahcirr@netcom14.netcom.com Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:57390 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7179 henry (anon2c9e@nyx10.cs.du.edu) wrote: : -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- : [soc.motss and comp.org.eff.talk utterly removed from Newsgroups: : line, even though it's a futile, empty gesture] : In article <3tvcjc$mnc@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov>, : Dave Hayes wrote: : >And what if all newsgroups charters contain "Fred cannot post"? : this is such an outrageous straw man it's not worth discussing. : please detail the circumstances which could lead to every one : of the thousands of newsgroups having 'fred cannot post' in : their charters. : you have loons in your attic. : >>All we want is that he posts his screeds to *on-topic* : >>newsgroups, ferchrissakes. He is not being "silenced" in any way. : : >Then the best way to accomplish that is to manage your newsreading : >responsibily, and ignore his screeds unless they are on topic. Why is : >this simple thing so hard for people here to do? (Oh, I forgot. Usenet : >people *like* strife.) : an even better way to accomplish it would be if someone got : through to fred that his asshole behavior is antisocial and : vicious, and he ought to take it to the appropriate newsgroup. : most people who aren't utter sociopaths will eventually agree : to do this, but cherry has been relentlessly degrading the : signal-to-noise ratio on soc.motss for years and years. : >>Now, when someone like Fred Cherry persists in dropping his spew into : >>, he breaks down this social system and contributes to the : >>destruction of both newsgroups. : : >Honor demands that the people in soc.motss turn their backs on him. : >Otherwise, they let this one person destroy their social system. : honor demands that fred abide by newsgroup charters. : he is not a man of honor. he is a vicious, cowardly : liar who is whining about censorship because his nasty : little spam campaign backfired on him. : >If they remove his access, that's a violation of his free speech. : bullshit. first off, your paranoia is showing again. there is : no 'they' who can remove his access. only a sysadmin can do that, : and just as a restaurant or any private establishment is legally : allowed to forbid rude conduct or refuse to serve a loud and : obnoxious patron, an isp is allowed to institute any acceptable : use policy it feels is proper. : some people, like canter and siegel, have been so recalcitrant : in their continual net abuse that indeed they have been more : or less driven off the net and deprived of the ability to : continue to abuse the net. others, like fred cherry, lurk : right at the borderline of what you can get away with without : being kicked off the net. : i submit as evidence that the bozo is still posting his : vicious libels and calumnies. : h : - -- : SUPPORT THE DENNIS ERLICH DEFENSE FUND! READ ALT.RELIGION.SCIENTOLOGY! : Send checks to MORRISON & FOERSTER, 345 California Street, San Francisco, : California 94104-2675. Telephone: (415) 677-7000 Fax: (415) 677-7522 : Contact People: Carla Oakley and Katie Walsh. : MAKE SURE YOU LABEL YOUR CHECK "DENNIS ERLICH DEFENSE FUND". Checks : should be made out to Morrison & Foerster. For verification of this info, : email ssteele@eff.org (Shari Steele) SAVE THE REV! : [ For Public Key: finger anon2c9e@nyx10.cs.du.edu ] : -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- : Version: 2.6 : iQCVAwUBMAT51tOUGUXWNqytAQEaKwQAgalIN0Ell1RKoVAkfjKg5BLnLs3A2ZPq : I0sMgd6y/BLSqpBNIzvonhRaGnByKB1BQIfEm4yDIxkIpkRyTME+IcDs//+eokpe : Wot9cmPH4W9CbNkg/sAvlcEohjcecN0HU4I5D+DpUZ36H7ZWcSgUg7az/GkAUOGI : POczginBSeU= : =DlRJ : -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Gibson drahcirr@netcom.com [\] PADI DM Candidate -------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you can't trust me with a choice, how can you trust me with an Hawaiian pizza? >From comp.org.eff.talk Fri Jul 14 14:02:12 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!sundog.tiac.net!usenet From: Arun Malik Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 13 Jul 1995 19:30:22 GMT Organization: Visual Renaissance, Inc. Lines: 45 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3u3s8e$a15@sundog.tiac.net> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3thtoj$eec@panix3.panix.com> <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tj09t$nrb@netaxs.com> <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com> <3tongp$q8f@netaxs.com> <3tr7m0$d7n@netaxs.com> <3tt6lu$pbi@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3ttpqj$ilb@netaxs.com> <3tvcjc$mnc@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3tvkpm$81e@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vri.tiac.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) Xref: news.interport.net comp.org.eff.talk:58246 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7191 As someone who just started reading USENET this past week and stumbled into this thread from alt.religon.scientology (someone in Harvard Sqare recommended it as a good place to "lurk"?) I'd like to post my first message to USENET to what appears to be a flamewar about flamewars? I connect to the Net via a 14.4 modem at a cost of $79/month to my company. It takes a noticeable amount of time for an "article?" I click on to appear on my computer screen before I can decide to ignore it. Often the subject headings are misleading or incomplete so I can not decide to ignore a discussion without reading at least the first message posted. The amount of noise on the groups I've check out is considerable. I don't have hours each day to wade through it as I am actually trying to do something with my life other than read USENET. Before I setup an Internet account I was told by several people not to bother reading USENET or "surf" the WWW as it was not worth the investment in time necessary to locate useful information. Their advice was to stick to email and only explore the Net when I literally had time to waste, because it would be a waste of time. Unfortunately, this is indeed turning out to be the case. However, I am willing to devote enough time to learn something about the the Net and learn where useful content resides. Hopefully that will not require the acquisition of psychic powers. >From my point of view - a neophyte's humble opinion - if USENET were to clearly distinguish between factual substantive posts and rambling opinion based flames by marking each with a code - perhaps an automatic PERL script that would search for obscene language, phrases known to be used in flames,etcetera, and then add a symbol or change the color of the title - that would assist greatly in learning which posts to ignore. ---Of course those whose entire social lives revolve around flames would seek out titles marked with this symbol --- The alternative being discussed, forcing well known flamers to post to a relevant group, is not censorship. They can still post in groups that welcome flamewars, they simply can't trick me into reading their posts in irrelevant groups by choosing misleading titles, etcetera. Arun Malik vri@tiac.net (The opinions expressed are my own, not those of my company.) >From alt.censorship Fri Jul 14 14:02:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!news.dell.com!obiwan!fubar.pmr.com!news.fc.net!not-for-mail From: hackard@freeside.fc.net (Andrew Hackard) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 13 Jul 1995 15:38:56 -0500 Organization: Freeside Communications, Inc. Lines: 27 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3u4090$4a7@freeside.fc.net> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tt6cp$p6f@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <1995Jul11.102932.20665@montagar> <3tvbe4$m87@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: freeside.fc.net Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:309243 alt.censorship:57410 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32331 comp.org.eff.talk:58254 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7195 Dave Hayes wrote: >davidc@montagar.com (David L. Cathey) writes: >>Dave, Dave, Dave... You're completely forgetting something. >>Homosexual bigotry (which is what they are trying to avoid) IS popular with >>some people! >Not on Usenet it isn't. Urk? What Usenet are *you* reading? I've seen "gay-bashing" flames everywhere from austin.general (not a real swift choice of group, BTW) to misc.kids to rec.games.frp.dnd to alt.binaries.pictures.* (I just read them for the articles). I will admit that many of these people are roundly flamed, but frequently they also draw several supporters (of the athletic variety, no doubt) out of the woodwork. There's a reason that Usenet has a Floating Homosexuality Flamewar, and it's not because people can't agree on which homosexuals they like best. (Shame we can't anchor that 'war the way talk.abortion anchored the Floating Abortion Flamewar.) -- Andrew Hackard | "Sir, you and all others who are looking for hackard@fc.net | a technical fix to an ethical dilemma are | doomed to disappointment." --WHMurray@aol.com, Fight the CDA! | in article <3ruoc5$4cg@newsbf02.news.aol.com> >From alt.censorship Fri Jul 14 14:02:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!news.dell.com!obiwan!fubar.pmr.com!news.fc.net!not-for-mail From: hackard@freeside.fc.net (Andrew Hackard) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc,soc.motss Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 13 Jul 1995 15:42:47 -0500 Organization: Freeside Communications, Inc. Lines: 12 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3u40g7$4eo@freeside.fc.net> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tt6lu$pbi@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3ttpqj$ilb@netaxs.com> <3tvcjc$mnc@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: freeside.fc.net Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:57411 comp.org.eff.talk:58255 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7196 soc.motss:309244 Dave Hayes wrote: >If they remove his access, that's a violation of his free speech. Americans have the right to free speech. That right does not require that we provide everyone a venue. It certainly does not require me to listen. -- Andrew Hackard | "Sir, you and all others who are looking for hackard@fc.net | a technical fix to an ethical dilemma are | doomed to disappointment." --WHMurray@aol.com, Fight the CDA! | in article <3ruoc5$4cg@newsbf02.news.aol.com> >From alt.censorship Fri Jul 14 14:02:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!news.dell.com!obiwan!fubar.pmr.com!news.fc.net!not-for-mail From: hackard@freeside.fc.net (Andrew Hackard) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 13 Jul 1995 15:50:04 -0500 Organization: Freeside Communications, Inc. Lines: 20 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3u40ts$4ls@freeside.fc.net> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tuj1e$3tr@nyx10.cs.du.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: freeside.fc.net Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:57412 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32332 comp.org.eff.talk:58256 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7197 Rich Gibson wrote: >Tolerance and Gender Identity/sexual preference are not nearly as highly >related as many in the gay community believe. What are people saying >about Jessie Helms? Well, I can't speak for those in the gay community, but: 1) Helms is an insensitive, ignorant, malinformed misanthrope who is an embarrassment to the dignity of the United States Congress (which is quite an achievement). His rantings about the origins and spread of AIDS would make wonderful satire if he weren't so damned serious. Listening to Helms almost makes me happy we only have Phil Gramm. 2) I think he'd prefer you to spell his name Jesse. -- Andrew Hackard | "Sir, you and all others who are looking for hackard@fc.net | a technical fix to an ethical dilemma are | doomed to disappointment." --WHMurray@aol.com, Fight the CDA! | in article <3ruoc5$4cg@newsbf02.news.aol.com> >From alt.censorship Fri Jul 14 14:02:13 1995 Newsgroups: alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!malgudi.oar.net!utnetw.utoledo.edu!lab1.newton.utoledo.edu!gsmith From: Gene Ward Smith Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship In-Reply-To: <3u2bao$rtl@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Sender: news@utnetw.utoledo.edu (News Manager) Organization: University of Toledo References: <3tt6lu$pbi@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3ttpqj$ilb@netaxs.com> <3tvcjc$mnc@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3tvkki$ol4@martha.utk.edu> <3u2bao$rtl@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 22:25:22 GMT Lines: 43 Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:57440 comp.org.eff.talk:58283 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7209 On 12 Jul 1995, Dave Hayes wrote: > In other words, some Soc.Motss patrons are sick of hearing him, so they > use the convienent "off-topic" cry as a justifier. (I have no real problem > with you not wanting him there, that just betrays a lack of wisdom. It's > when you -force- him out that I get to jump on my high horse and scream as > loud as you do.) Why does it betray a "lack of wisdom" not to wish to have a homophobic loon posting there? > I suppose no one has tried -listening- to him as a human being (regardless > of your thoughts otherwise) yet? I find that people with a Need go away once > that Need is fulfilled. Have you tried listening to us? > Hence the title of this thread. Sysadmins are not parents, nor are they > counselors, and they sure as hell aren't psychologists. They are sysadmins. > You people place them in these roles time and time again, from the Need > to Silence those whom you do not Agree with. Oh, yeah. Like Gibson did when he whined to my sysadmin, eh? > [Gee, you can't even handle a *polite* disagreement. No wonder you are up > in arms against a homophobe.] Damn right. I reserve the right to call you names. I can be as obnoxious or even as irrational as I want, you've said so. > You can't seem to ignore what you don't like. I'd call what they are doing > a grand lesson, teaching to you ignore what you don't like. They certainly > aren't forcing you to read their articles. They are cluttering up the group, cretin. With homophobic crap, no less. Smug SOBs like you with your straight, white WASP privilege should really shut the fuck up on this topic. You have no idea what the issue is. -- Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/University of Toledo gsmith@newton.utoledo.edu >From alt.censorship Fri Jul 14 14:02:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.ecn.bgu.edu!psuvax1!psuvax1!flee From: flee@cse.psu.edu (Felix Lee) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 13 Jul 1995 22:37:48 GMT Organization: Penn State Comp Sci & Eng Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <3tt6lu$pbi@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3ttpqj$ilb@netaxs.com> <3tvcjc$mnc@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3tvkki$ol4@martha.utk.edu> <3u2bao$rtl@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: modula.cse.psu.edu Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:57431 comp.org.eff.talk:58272 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7201 Dave DeLaney: > Bogus "Distribution: inet" also removed. Dave Hayes: > But you didn't really remove it. It shows up here with that bogus > distribution as well. Come to think of it, I didn't include such a > distribution in with my post (never do). What gives? it's a "feature" of INN as shipped. any article posted to a group that matches something in $NEWSLIB/distrib.pats will get a Distribution: forced on it. so anything posted or crossposted to comp.org.eff.talk will have "Distribution: inet". ask your news admin to delete everything in distrib.pats. it's the wrong behavior. -- >From comp.org.eff.talk Fri Jul 14 14:02:13 1995 Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!drahcirr From: drahcirr@netcom.com (Rich Gibson) Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Message-ID: Followup-To: comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3thtoj$eec@panix3.panix.com> <3ti2t5$rle@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3tj09t$nrb@netaxs.com> <3tjk12$fas@panix3.panix.com> <3tongp$q8f@netaxs.com> <3tr7m0$d7n@netaxs.com> <3u0cv9$muv@netaxs.com> Distribution: inet Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 23:10:50 GMT Lines: 64 Sender: drahcirr@netcom14.netcom.com Xref: news.interport.net comp.org.eff.talk:58285 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7211 Michael Handler (grendel@netaxs.com) wrote: : In article , : Rich Gibson (drahcirr@netcom.com) wrote: : > : Usenet is not a right. : > Actually, if you had read the post that I just responded to, it made _No_ : > mention of the net... : The discussion we're having is in the context of the net. It's all about : whether we have a "right" to post to Usenet newsgroups. I'm not : interested in having a discussion about the rights of people in the world : in general. Then why respond to a post that apparantly does not interest you? : > What is the connection between forging to a moderated group, and posting : > to an open group? : If I have the right to post to one group, I have the right to post to : them all. At least in what I've seen you advocate. I don't think so. You claim that forging approval to a moderated group is the same as posting an off-topic or unwanted message to an unmoderated group. I disagree. I do not advocate forging approval (except to alt.2600 while it is under fake 'moderation', or when it is otherwise 'considered' to be appropriate.). : > Did you read my message? Reread the part above. The message I responded : > to argued that the view that an invidual's rights being important than : > group comfort was 'Randian.' : I'm not going to argue philosophy with you. That was the whole point of my post... : > Why not answer the question, in what way would _ignoring_ Fred Cherry be : > a problem? Are you so unsure of your group identity that one hated : > person can destroy your group? : I normally *do* ignore Fred, except when he says something exceptionally : stupid. The problem is that other people haven't learned to ignore him, : and flame him every time he shows up. And it's always a new load of : people each time, so it's nigh impossible to stop them before Fred's : garbage permeates the group. And thus, the group is closer to destruction. But why? For those who don't want to be involved in an emotional flame war need only add the thread to the kill file once or twice (for the inevitable "Re:" post). There are many people who strongly disagree with any non 'mainstream' group. Those people will, like Fred, pull all kinds of shit to have their views heard. Fanatical people are _not_ going to go away, unless we apply such draconian controls to the net as to render it nearly useless, and so the trick is in working on ways to allow newsgroups to remain useful, even in the face of mindless opposition and off topic crap. -- Rich Gibson drahcirr@netcom.com [\] PADI DM Candidate -------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you can't trust me with a choice, how can you trust me with an Hawaiian pizza? >From comp.org.eff.talk Fri Jul 14 14:02:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!psuvax1!psuvax1!flee From: flee@cse.psu.edu (Felix Lee) Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 13 Jul 1995 23:16:30 GMT Organization: Penn State Comp Sci & Eng Lines: 33 Distribution: inet Message-ID: References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3th1m5$e43@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3u2sc7$b61@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modula.cse.psu.edu Xref: news.interport.net comp.org.eff.talk:58287 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7215 Michael Handler: > Um, how about the group that administers the parade is a formal, > registered organization with a roster of members, while the > readership of a newsgroup is not? I am highly skeptical that any > laws that apply to formal organizations can be stretched (and it is > a stretch to do this) to also apply to Usenet newsgroups. I'm about 80% serious with that argument. I'm kind of skeptical too, but if you want justification: it's not the readership that defines a newsgroup. it's the posters, and this is easily turned into a roster of members. the soc.motss home page and the FAQ further suggest that soc.motss is a type of entity. and the existence of something called a "newsgroup charter" also suggests that newsgroups are entities of some sort. soc.motss isn't a formal organization in the sense of having a well-defined internal structure (officers, etc.) so it's not an _organization_ per se. but I'd argue that organization isn't necessary in defining an entity. the dozen neighbors that get together every sunday to play volleyball against other teams is an entity, despite lack of a formal structure. in their ruling, the Supreme Court rejected the theory that the lack of a well-defined message for the parade means that it wasn't subject to 1st-amendment rights. I'm arguing something similar: the lack of well-defined structure within an entity shouldn't mean that it doesn't have 1st-amendment rights. if you want to argue that only particular types of highly-structured entities should be allowed 1st-amendment rights, then come up with a litmus test. -- >From alt.censorship Fri Jul 14 14:02:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!alpha2.csd.uwm.edu!mfalkner From: mfalkner@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu (Michael John Falkner) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc,soc.motss Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Followup-To: alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc,soc.motss Date: 14 Jul 1995 02:24:58 GMT Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee Lines: 17 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3u4khq$k2g@uwm.edu> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tt6lu$pbi@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3ttpqj$ilb@netaxs.com> <3tvcjc$mnc@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3u40g7$4eo@freeside.fc.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.169.2 X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:57449 comp.org.eff.talk:58289 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7216 soc.motss:309339 Andrew Hackard (hackard@freeside.fc.net) wrote: : Dave Hayes wrote: : >If they remove his access, that's a violation of his free speech. : Americans have the right to free speech. That right does not require that : we provide everyone a venue. It certainly does not require me to listen. You forget. If you remove my access to speak solely based on content, you've violated the freedom of speech as many read it. You have to have more than that. ========================================================================== Mike Falkner, mfalkner@csd.uwm.edu Milwaukee, Wisconsin "The Electric Youth Renegade" D.G.I.F. #10769 WWW: http://www.uwm.edu/~mfalkner No quotes. (No room!! =)) ========================================================================== >From alt.censorship Fri Jul 14 14:02:13 1995 Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!malgudi.oar.net!utnetw.utoledo.edu!lab1.newton.utoledo.edu!gsmith From: Gene Ward Smith Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship In-Reply-To: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Sender: news@utnetw.utoledo.edu (News Manager) Organization: University of Toledo References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 02:52:48 GMT Lines: 27 Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:57455 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32338 comp.org.eff.talk:58293 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7219 On Thu, 13 Jul 1995, Rich Gibson wrote: > : I'm k00l. I'll just keep cross-posting to comp.org.eff.talk. The whole > : thing is a little strange, though. Someone on *Carl's* side of this > : debate sent a complaint to *my* sysadmin. > I assume that you are referring my complaint to your postmaster over your > abuse of e-mail. My "abuse" of e-mail is the result of using this crappy pine thing. *You*, on the other hand, hypocritically complained to my sysadmin. Even if I had intended to e-mailed you a flame, how in hell would that constitute "abuse of e-mail", Pinhead? > It is too bad that you damage your legitimate cause (that it is good to > stay on topic in a newsgroup) by your inability to discriminate between a > 'public' usenet posting and harrasment of a private individual through > e-mail. You are a complete hypocrite. Get your slimy presense out of soc.motss, creep. Why in hell did you see fit to restore soc.motss to the newsgroup line, you pathetic whiner? -- Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/University of Toledo gsmith@newton.utoledo.edu >From alt.censorship Fri Jul 14 14:02:13 1995 Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.mathworks.com!newshost.marcam.com!usc!news.cerf.net!newsserver.sdsc.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!drahcirr From: drahcirr@netcom.com (Rich Gibson) Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 04:23:52 GMT Lines: 50 Sender: drahcirr@netcom19.netcom.com Xref: news.interport.net soc.motss:309369 alt.censorship:57467 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32341 comp.org.eff.talk:58305 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7225 Gene Ward Smith (gsmith@newton.utoledo.edu) wrote: : On Thu, 13 Jul 1995, Rich Gibson wrote: : > : I'm k00l. I'll just keep cross-posting to comp.org.eff.talk. The whole : > : thing is a little strange, though. Someone on *Carl's* side of this : > : debate sent a complaint to *my* sysadmin. : : > I assume that you are referring my complaint to your postmaster over your : > abuse of e-mail. : My "abuse" of e-mail is the result of using this crappy pine thing. *You*, : on the other hand, hypocritically complained to my sysadmin. So, apparantly you are referring to my e-mail as being 'someone on Carl's side.' Apparantly you have a bug up your ass, wanting to piss of Carl by posting in comp.org.eff.talk. You LIED about the complaining e-mail. There was no e-mail complaining about an off-topic post. What was hypocritical about asking to not receive unsolicited e-mail? : Even if I had intended to e-mailed you a flame, how in hell would that : constitute "abuse of e-mail", Pinhead? Well, Gene, I guess you don't have a clue. "I didn't do it, my software did it, and it wasn't wrong anyway." : : > It is too bad that you damage your legitimate cause (that it is good to : > stay on topic in a newsgroup) by your inability to discriminate between a : > 'public' usenet posting and harrasment of a private individual through : > e-mail. : You are a complete hypocrite. Get your slimy presense out of soc.motss, : creep. Why in hell did you see fit to restore soc.motss to the newsgroup : line, you pathetic whiner? Gene, you should look back a couple of messages. The message that _I_ replied to, by you, was posted in soc.motss. So, I think that you owe me an apology for that ignorant comment. Why do you think that I am slimy, or a hypocrite? Do you claim the right to send e-mail wherever you want? I _am_ restoring soc.motss to this thread, since Gene chose to post the thread there, while redirecting follow ups. -- Rich Gibson drahcirr@netcom.com [\] PADI DM Candidate -------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you can't trust me with a choice, how can you trust me with an Hawaiian pizza? >From alt.censorship Fri Jul 14 14:02:13 1995 Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!noc.netcom.net!netcom.com!drahcirr From: drahcirr@netcom.com (Rich Gibson) Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Message-ID: Followup-To: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tuj1e$3tr@nyx10.cs.du.edu> <3u40ts$4ls@freeside.fc.net> Distribution: inet Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 04:27:30 GMT Lines: 27 Sender: drahcirr@netcom19.netcom.com Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:57485 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32342 comp.org.eff.talk:58318 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7229 Andrew Hackard (hackard@freeside.fc.net) wrote: : Rich Gibson wrote: : >Tolerance and Gender Identity/sexual preference are not nearly as highly : >related as many in the gay community believe. What are people saying : >about Jessie Helms? : Well, I can't speak for those in the gay community, but: : 1) Helms is an insensitive, ignorant, malinformed misanthrope who is an : embarrassment to the dignity of the United States Congress (which is quite : an achievement). His rantings about the origins and spread of AIDS would : make wonderful satire if he weren't so damned serious. Listening to Helms : almost makes me happy we only have Phil Gramm. I agree, but Jesse is regularly re-elected by _huge_ margins, by people who feel the same way about _me_ and _my_ views as you and I feel about him. : 2) I think he'd prefer you to spell his name Jesse. Point taken... I wish that I was making some subtle point, but it was a simple fuck up. -- Rich Gibson drahcirr@netcom.com [\] PADI DM Candidate -------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you can't trust me with a choice, how can you trust me with an Hawaiian pizza? >From comp.org.eff.talk Fri Jul 14 14:02:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.mathworks.com!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!netaxs.com!grendel From: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,comp.org.eff.talk Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 14 Jul 1995 05:08:34 GMT Organization: Sub Rosa Software Lines: 38 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3u4u4i$kik@netaxs.com> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tribs$a0t@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3trk64$8bd@panix2.panix.com> <3tt6cp$p6f@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3tu162$kol@panix2.panix.com> <3tvbp2$mce@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> <3tvjdb$81e@netaxs.com> <3u21c7$od8@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> Reply-To: grendel@netaxs.com (Michael Handler) NNTP-Posting-Host: unix3.netaxs.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.interport.net news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7226 comp.org.eff.talk:58307 Stop putting "soc.motss" in newsgroups. In article <3u21c7$od8@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov>, Dave Hayes (dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov) wrote: > Baloney. You can't reasonably expect that of a netnews poster. You can > demand it, but there's too many people out there who don't even know > what soc.motss *is*. If you don't know what the group is for, either find out or delete it from Newsgroups:. It's better to be careful in such cases, rather than take the risk. > >What kind of excuse is that? Does your sense of perspective and calm fly > >out the window when you post? > No, but my desire to go read the charter of each group does. So you admit you're being a lazy egotist when you read netnews. "I can't be *bothered* to go and read the charter of each group to see if it's appropriate. I'll just go and post whatever I want, wherever I want. Don't like it? Too bad..." > >> Methinks you ask too much of the average poster. > >Too fucking bad. If they can't be bothered to check the newsgroups line > >and set followups, I don't want to see them on Usenet. > Oh how wonderfully elitist. Maybe they don't want to see you either. If people want to participate in Usenet, it is not too much to ask of them to understand the technical details, such as "crossposting", or "setting Followup-To:", and to apply common sense to the utilization of such details. A net of well meaning, educated people with no knowledge of the technical details would be an unmitigated disaster. -- Michael Handler(); Philadelphia, PA Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics In Search Of: archives of digitized / drawn / painted pictures of roses >From alt.censorship Fri Jul 14 14:02:13 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx10.cs.du.edu!not-for-mail From: anon2c9e@nyx10.cs.du.edu (henry) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abuse,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Whining to Sysadmins is Censorship Date: 14 Jul 1995 00:20:08 -0600 Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci. Lines: 133 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3u52ao$7vv@nyx10.cs.du.edu> References: <3qmk7j$a1e@news.sas.ab.ca> <3tuj1e$3tr@nyx10.cs.du.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: nyx10.cs.du.edu Xref: news.interport.net alt.censorship:57487 alt.current-events.net-abuse:32345 comp.org.eff.talk:58322 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:7233 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In article , Rich Gibson wrote: >henry (anon2c9e@nyx10.cs.du.edu) wrote: Michael Handler makes the obviously ridiculous and obviously not serious statement: >: >: No, but we all have guns and we know where you live. explain how this could possibly be serious. first off, 'we all have guns' presumes that handler knows the gun-owning status of every poster to soc.motss. it's a joke, a rather angry joke, but a joke nonetheless. >: >So, you would meet words with violence? That seems like a tolerant >: >attitude... >: aw, c'mon you bozo, it's obvious that he was being a thing called >: 'ironic' which used to be understood by supposedly-educated people. >The rest of the post did not make it clear that he was being ironic. Why >should Michael's 'insensitive' rant be supported because he is 'one of >the group' while Fred's posts are slammed? i see. so it's free speech when fred cherry goes fag-bashing in soc.motss, dan gannon the holocaust revisionist posts mountains of hateful garbage to soc.culture.jewish, a child molester posts gloatings about molesting children to alt.sexual.abuse.recovery, but when a member of one of those communities dares to respond in kind, then that's bad and PC swill. get your head out of your ass. >: not really. pointing out that 'alt.politics.homosexuality' is the >: proper newsgroup to vent his agenda is not in any way silencing his >: freedom to speak. it is simply questioning his no doubt piss-poor >: judgment in choosing soc.motss as a pool to piss in. >Michael's post actually made no mention of usenet...he seemed to be >arguing as I wrote, group 'comfort' can be legitimate cause to interfere >with an individual's rights. Do you also argee with this Orwellian view >of freedom? did i say anything remotely like that? you're attaching handler's words, or a misrepresentation of them, to me. there is nothing orwellian about the notion that a gay man in a gay bar or other designated public area should not have to tolerate someone screaming "DIE FAGS!" at the top of their lungs. >: >Under that view, why should Gays have rights? After all, many people >: >feel dicomfitted by confronting homosexuality. >: do you usually specialize in bogus nonsense like this, or is this >: an aberration that we may hope you won't repeat? >Nice of you to remove the context. Michael's post seemed to me to be a >very clear argument in favor of group power to limit others based on the >group being discomfitted. >By another word this is the sort of PC crap that has descended on us >like a sick cloud. this is outrageous bullshit. if it's free speech for fred cherry to post his crap, then it's equally free speech for gene ward smith to write to his sysadmin, and if indeed fred cherry has violated policies to which he agreed as prerequisite to getting the acount, then he's committed breach of contract and can be removed from the system. >The only way, in my view, that Gay, Lesbian, Bi, and trans gender >individuals will be able to get their rightful respect is to be able to >stand up to the worst in society, like Fred, and be strong in self. bullshit. how about i burn a damn cross in your yard and tell you that you ought to 'stand up to the worst in society?' you say nonsense like this, and then object when someone like gene does JUST THAT and stands up to the scumbag. what you're essentially saying is that them damn fags ought to just shut up and quit whining. >As another point, it is only through a strong commitment to free speech, >and civil rights, that Gay, Lesbian, Bi, and trans gendered people have >been able to get as far as they have is BECAUSE we don't live in a >complete police state that would ban those who are different. i have said nothing about banning anyone from anything, merely said that fred cherry should take his inappropriate posts to the newsgroup reserved for such discussions. indeed, i objected to the removal of mikhail zeleny's account, despite the fact that he is despicable. i might, indeed, do the same thing should fred's net access be yanked. i would not, however, abuse the english language as cherry does by calling it 'censorship.' >I do not believe that many 'different' people are more tolerant than the >'Christian' fucks... >Tolerance and Gender Identity/sexual preference are not nearly as highly >related as many in the gay community believe. What are people saying >about Jessie Helms? this has nothing to do with whether fred cherry's postings are on-charter for soc.motss. they are clearly not. they are as off-charter as it is possible to be. he ought to take them to an appropriate newsgroup. h - -- SUPPORT THE DENNIS ERLICH DEFENSE FUND! READ ALT.RELIGION.SCIENTOLOGY! Send checks to MORRISON & FOERSTER, 345 California Street, San Francisco, California 94104-2675. Telephone: (415) 677-7000 Fax: (415) 677-7522 Contact People: Carla Oakley and Katie Walsh. MAKE SURE YOU LABEL YOUR CHECK "DENNIS ERLICH DEFENSE FUND". Checks should be made out to Morrison & Foerster. For verification of this info, email ssteele@eff.org (Shari Steele) SAVE THE REV! [ For Public Key: finger anon2c9e@nyx10.cs.du.edu ] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6 iQCVAwUBMAYMU9OUGUXWNqytAQHaZwQAkNctHz4poOg8XAF0vOHySD1K8qe4utth bh/UYR8/mktC03U1SH0wO5Ycqr+viGMZdd4J7dK7tgtKgqbdiHIyuOt8izQSuDDN BY5c1Y/vRpMNr1ODab3ybnx6GwZj56F1d3iE4Pu6ShQn351rOgO136ZxrGnDTv2s rxVCw5AJxpE= =udjz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >From alt.censorship Fri Jul 14 14:02:14 1995 Path: news.interport.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx10.cs.du.edu!not-for-mail From: anon2c9e@nyx10.cs.du.edu (henry) Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.censorship,alt.current-events.net-abus