Topic 1067 [media]: Martin Rimm and the Cyberporn Scare #866 of 1020: Avant Garde A Clue (mnemonic) Mon Sep 25 '95 (06:06) 13 lines It's interesting that Marty knew in April of '94 that he was going to have a PR problem, and therefore sought an alliance with Seth in the ultimate hope of having civil-libertarian cover when the PR problem emerged. It's now commonly believed (among those of us who've kept up with the story) that Marty's original project was the HANDBOOK, but that the Study surpassed the HANDBOOK in importance as more and more people expressed an interest in it. But it may be the case that the Study was always the primary project. Topic 1067 [media]: Martin Rimm and the Cyberporn Scare #860 of 1020: Avant Garde A Clue (mnemonic) Sun Sep 24 '95 (23:20) 100 lines Two letters from Marty to Seth Finkelstein -- one from April of 1994 and one from January of this year. ------------ Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 18:52:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Martin Rimm To: sethf@MIT.EDU Subject: Re: Pornography Cc: In-Reply-To: <2p36im$14e@panix2.panix.com> Distribution: world Excerpts from netnews.soc.feminism: 20-Apr-94 Pornography by sethf@MIT.EDU > Yup. _The Kinsey Report_ is quite old. But I would examine your > methodology and inferences VERY carefully. > > > Do you think such information could be used constructively? > > Yes. But it could also be misused, destructively ("look at all > the perverts in our midst, we must root them out"). And if it's poor > information, it's just political nonsense. Thanks for the response. My initial post was far too rhetorical and people made all kinds of inferences from it. I am doing two projects simulataneously. The first downloads not 100,000 GIFs but the descriptive lists of these GIFs as provided by the adult BBS. The analysis merely says that x% of the images contained anal sex, x% oral, x% watersports, etc. This is a study in itself and is not very interpretive. There are some fascinating economic consequences here, which I can offer when I'm finished. But I never imagined that I would make any kind of personal interpretation and say Gee, too much S & M! We ought to ban this. The second in fact parallels your suggestion that such information can be used constructively or destructively. I am very excited about this because I am showing how such information can be used destructively. I just feel more comfortable in the jungle (I'm a vet) and I just assume that if people like Katherine MacKinnon want to use my stats to argue that women are too often on their knees swallowing male urine then she can certainly do so. The truth is, most studies are ignored, so I can't say I expect very much. You seem to have a good grasp of what's going on. I might be interested in corresponding with you about how to go about this statistical analysis (although I do have a lot of help at CMU). Be in touch. ------------- Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 21:16:00 -0500 (EST) From: Martin Rimm To: sethf@MIT.EDU Subject: Re: Tone and presentation Cc: In-Reply-To: <9501250154.AA18857@frumious-bandersnatch.MIT.EDU> Thanks for your comments. I guess I can only do my best and hope I live to see the end of it. Your comments were more generic in that you are suggesting that almost anyone would get into trouble were he to do a study. Excerpts from mail: 24-Jan-95 Tone and presentation by sethf@MIT.EDU > I have a deep fear that when I actually read that article, I'll > think "SUCKER! You were taken! For every legitimate Kinsey, there are a > thousand wanna-be MacKinnon's". I hope not, but it's a nightmare. Well I must confess I also have a fear that you'll feel that way. I didn't know there are a 1,000 wanna be Mackinnons - I usually duck when her name is mentioned. Seth, I'll give it to you straight: MacKinnon is going to have a field day with the data, because at least from her point of view, she thinks it vindicates her. She thinks that just because people download bestiality pics and the like that that means men want to go out and abuse or rape women. My study does not offer one shred of evidence about effects. Another scholar, Carlin Meyer, will argue that people are fascinated by the "taboo," but that doesn't mean they act on such fascinations. So let me ask you a question, maybe you can help: how does one present the popularity of the paraphilias without appearing to be a hypster? Or let me ask it another way: what kind of questions would you like to see answered? Data is data, Seth. In essence, I count the number of images and downloads, and present the numbers. People can do whatever they want with such data. Martin ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + (mr6e@andrew.cmu.edu) Martin Rimm Phone: 412-268-2480 College of Engineering Fax: 412-268-6421 Carnegie Mellon University 5000 Forbes Avenue, Pittsburgh PA 15213 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Topic 1067 [media]: Martin Rimm and the Cyberporn Scare #861 of 1020: Avant Garde A Clue (mnemonic) Sun Sep 24 '95 (23:23) 29 lines This letter from Marty to Seth in March gives us a good idea of when the deal between Marty and Time took place. -------- Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 13:05:42 -0500 (EST) From: "CIT Dean's Office" To: sethf@MIT.EDU Subject: hey Cc: I got an offer to study TPP at MIT and have a straight question for you: take the scenario whereby despite our objections the study has an impact in curtailing the prevelance of hard-core pornography in a manner that is antithetical to civil liberties. In other words, I am the messenger, and the wrong people interpret my message in the work way. Is it not inevitable that a lot of people will be pissed off at me and blame me for regulations x,y, and z? Do you think I would be welcome or hated at MIT? I enjoyed corresponding with you and if I make it to Cambridge I'd like to pursue some conversations about this. There is a lot of data that never made it to print, for fascinating reasons. By the way, a major weekly news magazine offered a cover story in exchange for an exclusive. I'm not Jerry Falwell, but you might have to pucker up or duck if we are to be friends. Topic 1067 [media]: Martin Rimm and the Cyberporn Scare #862 of 1020: Avant Garde A Clue (mnemonic) Sun Sep 24 '95 (23:27) 52 lines This from April of this year, another letter from Marty to Seth. Note his reluctance to name Catharine MacKinnon by name. -------------- Date: Sat, 22 Apr 1995 11:10:49 -0400 (EDT) From: "CIT Dean's Office" To: sethf@MIT.EDU Subject: riddle me this... Cc: All right, Seth, you're me: you spend thousands of hours gathering and sorting raw data. You count the number of files, the number fo downloads. You develop a linguistic parser to classify the pictures with good accuracy, reliability and validity. You don't do anything fancy with statistics, you just add up the numbers and report them in your study. Let's take it one step further: you like to write. You think academics write boring prose. You despise most academic journals. So you write in a popular style, with energy and verve. Some people think your style is fascinating, others think it is alarming. Like Jerry Falwell and Andrea Dworkin. You consider yourself a renegade artist; you think the Marquis de Sade was a genius. Most Americans, on the other hand (if they heard of him) would call him a pervert, and throw him to the sharks. You announce to the world a New Marquis has emerged on computer networks. Your study is published in Washington, a city renown for its mental masturbation. Your worst nightmare (you know who Seth) calls it a landmark, and gloats over every page. The very people you despise publicly praise your work with superlatives beyond description. The very world you feel at home in wants to shoot you, the messenger, for "vindicating" the old dame from Ireland. Riddle me this, Seth: what would you do? What would you say? You told me your worst nightmare was to read my study (you will in six weeks) and see that you defended a freak, a crusader. You never asked me about my worst nightmare: it just came true three days ago. [Note: MacKinnon says this in her note on Marty's study in the Georgetown Law Journal: "Carnegie Mellon's landmark study of pornography in cyberspace is also the first massive study of the consumption of pornography in a natural setting."]