Topic 1108 [media]: Martin Rimm and the Cyberporn Scare, Continued #574 of 842: Mike Godwin (mnemonic) Thu Nov 30 '95 (13:30) 99 lines Interview with Robert Thomas, November 30, 1995. I asked Thomas about his interview with Wendy Kole of Time magazine. Thomas said that although Kole told him that "the Carnegie Mellon study" had labelled him "the Marquis de Cyberspace," she did not mention Martin Rimm's name in the interview. Thomas said he had strong memories of Rimm's tenure as a member of his BBS. He said he thinks Rimm may have been a member prior to the May 10, 1994, application form that Carleen released to me last summer. He has many memories of Rimm, most of which date, he thinks, prior to his conviction in July of 1994. One of the memories involved payment for the BBS -- there was some trouble obtaining membership fees from Rimm: "I thought he might have used a credit-card that didn't belong to him. It seems to me that there was something wrong with his payment. Maybe his check was no good. Something to do with the check, and I didn't like it. Maybe he used a check from his mother." What did he know about Rimm's use of the Amateur Action BBS? "I'll never know what he took," Thomas said, referring specifically to the question of what images Rimm might have downloaded. Did he know that Rimm claims that BBS sysops tracked downloads and modified its inventory accordingly? Thomas ridiculed that idea -- the download statistics of the Wildcat BBS software he uses, he said, are unreliable. "Whenever the system crashed, the downloads [statistics] would go to zero," he said. Whenever an image was corrupted, the same thing might happen. Even when the system was functioning properly, Thomas said, he maintained "activity logs" for users for only 24 hours. During that 24-hour period, Thomas said, the activity log normally recorded nothing about the *types* of images downloaded -- only the DOS filenames. Couldn't he use that information to analyze customer preferences? "Only if I saved the activity logs every day, took the file numbers in the activity logs, and go back to the 'allfiles' list to find out which they were." Thomas described this as a tedious procedure at best, and one in which he never engaged. Why did he erase the activity logs daily? "They got too damn big -- with 40 [phone] lines, they took up too much damned disk space. I never even made a backup copy, I'd even delete 'em before I'd do the system back-up. I deleted the activity log every morning." The "allfiles" list is a list of all the files available to be downloaded from the BBS -- it is normally a text file and normally has to be updated manually by the sysop. Thomas did this erratically -- whenever he found the time and had the inclination to do so, he said. In addition, Thomas said, he had some text files that grouped the downloadable files by type -- he updated those even less often. Thomas said this was a cause of some friction with Rimm, who would write him frequently, "page" him online, and even talk to him on the phone, insisting that Thomas update the file lists. Thomas said it seems to him that this was before Thomas's July '94 conviction on obscenity charges. What about Rimm's claim that BBS sysops use the download data to cull their inventories? Thomas denies he ever did this. Said Thomas: "I never went back through the system. I even hated to go back to replace a corrupted image. Once an image das on there, I just left it there. The image was on there from day one." Did Rimm get information from Thomas about how he operated his board? "I did not give him any information whatsoever. All he was, was no different from Joe Blow accessing my board." Thomas said there was also no way for Rimm, as a user, to get much information about what other users were doing. The Wildcat software, he said, only tells a user if other users are downloading, engaged in mail, posting, etc. -- it does not tell any user what kind of material is being downloaded. What about the claim that Thomas changed the image descripions -- using words like "choking" in reference to images of fellatio -- to enhance the appeal of downloads? Did Rimm ask him about his marketing of images through the descriptions? Said Thomas: "He never asked me why I posted this or why I posted that. He never asked me anything." Oddly, Thomas said he recalls an exchange with Rimm in which Rimm told him he *shouldn't* be posting download statistics with the files: "I asked him why, and he wouldn't tell me why at all." As Thomas recalled it, the exchange went something like this: Rimm: "Robert, you shouldn't be posting the number of downloads on each file." Thomas: "Why not? Other BBSs do it. What's up with this? Rimm: "If you don't stop that, you're going to pay for it, I'm warning you. If you don't take my advice, you're going to pay for it." Thomas: "There's no way I can stop the number of downloads from appearing with the Wildcat software." Rimm: "Well, you better think of a way." But even though Rimm sometimes seemed to be attempting to appear threatening, Thomas recalled that Rimm normally was full of praise for Thomas and his BBS. "He'd say things like 'You never cease to amaze me. You're brilliant.' I was kind of an idol to him -- at least that's what I took it as. Some of his messages to me, he sounded kinda like he was in love with me or something. Or in love with the BBS. I thought he was probably a wannabe." Topic 1108 [media]: Martin Rimm and the Cyberporn Scare, Continued #601 of 842: Mike Godwin (mnemonic) Thu Nov 30 '95 (22:29) 12 lines From Time magazine, July 3 issue, sidebar on Robert Thomas: 'Though he concedes that many might find his stockpile of 25,000 photos featuring S&M and hard-core sex distasteful, Thomas insists he violated no laws. "I don't feel I committed a crime because I didn't offend anybody but a postal inspector in Memphis," he says, referring to the government official who launched the investigation. Thomas also faces charges in Salt Lake City of distributing images of naked children, but he insists those images aren't sexually explicit. "They are from nudist colonies," he says. "Many of them are family snapshots." ' Topic 1108 [media]: Martin Rimm and the Cyberporn Scare, Continued #602 of 842: David S. Jackson (davidj) Thu Nov 30 '95 (23:02) 1 line No wonder Mnemonic uses him as a reliable source. Why should he lie? Topic 1108 [media]: Martin Rimm and the Cyberporn Scare, Continued #603 of 842: Clopsing Yomsemite (rbr) Fri Dec 1 '95 (00:22) 1 line Why, it's more honesty from David Jackson. Topic 1108 [media]: Martin Rimm and the Cyberporn Scare, Continued #604 of 842: Apathetic Aesthetic (markmcc) Fri Dec 1 '95 (07:01) 3 lines Oh for the love of God. Topic 1108 [media]: Martin Rimm and the Cyberporn Scare, Continued #605 of 842: Mike Godwin (mnemonic) Fri Dec 1 '95 (10:33) 39 lines David Jackson writes: 'No wonder Mnemonic uses him as a reliable source. Why should he lie?' David Jackson obviously has not read the trial transcript of the Amateur Action BBS case. Whatever Robert Thomas's faults may be, there is no evidence at all that Thomas is a liar --not even when telling the truth hurts his own case. Of course, perhaps Jackson, with his *professional journalist* qualifications, has uncovered evidence that Thomas has lied about something. Perhaps he could share his superior knowledge of journalism, and of the Thomas case, with us. So, David, are you saying that Wendy Cole *did* ask Thomas about how Rimm reported his methods, and Thomas stated that Rimm reported his methods accurately? Are you saying that Wildcat BBS software reports more information about downloads than Thomas (and lizabeth, and others) say it does? Are you saying that Rimm was telling the truth? Furthermore, given that none of the answers Thomas has given in my interviews with him raise *any legal issues whatsoever* -- that is, given that none of them improves his legal standing by even an inch -- perhaps David could outline his theory of he thinks Thomas is lying, and that Rimm's reports of Thomas's methods were therefore truthful. One of the remarkable hypocrisies of this David Jackson's behavior is that he's privately critical of Philip Elmer-DeWitt -- in the strongest terms, really -- and of the "reporters" (formerly researchers/fact checkers, whose official status as reporters was established as the result of union negotiations, according to David) involved in the Rimm story. He's always quite willing to distance himself from that story -- he thinks that if he were involved, Rimm wouldn't have gotten away with anything as far as Time is concerned. Publicly, however, Jackson continues to show a united front with Time magazine. I hope them pay him well. Topic 1108 [media]: Martin Rimm and the Cyberporn Scare, Continued #602 of 842: David S. Jackson (davidj) Thu Nov 30 '95 (23:02) 1 line No wonder Mnemonic uses him as a reliable source. Why should he lie? Topic 1108 [media]: Martin Rimm and the Cyberporn Scare, Continued #603 of 842: Clopsing Yomsemite (rbr) Fri Dec 1 '95 (00:22) 1 line Why, it's more honesty from David Jackson. Topic 1108 [media]: Martin Rimm and the Cyberporn Scare, Continued #604 of 842: Apathetic Aesthetic (markmcc) Fri Dec 1 '95 (07:01) 3 lines Oh for the love of God. Topic 1108 [media]: Martin Rimm and the Cyberporn Scare, Continued #605 of 842: Mike Godwin (mnemonic) Fri Dec 1 '95 (10:33) 39 lines David Jackson writes: 'No wonder Mnemonic uses him as a reliable source. Why should he lie?' David Jackson obviously has not read the trial transcript of the Amateur Action BBS case. Whatever Robert Thomas's faults may be, there is no evidence at all that Thomas is a liar --not even when telling the truth hurts his own case. Of course, perhaps Jackson, with his *professional journalist* qualifications, has uncovered evidence that Thomas has lied about something. Perhaps he could share his superior knowledge of journalism, and of the Thomas case, with us. So, David, are you saying that Wendy Cole *did* ask Thomas about how Rimm reported his methods, and Thomas stated that Rimm reported his methods accurately? Are you saying that Wildcat BBS software reports more information about downloads than Thomas (and lizabeth, and others) say it does? Are you saying that Rimm was telling the truth? Furthermore, given that none of the answers Thomas has given in my interviews with him raise *any legal issues whatsoever* -- that is, given that none of them improves his legal standing by even an inch -- perhaps David could outline his theory of he thinks Thomas is lying, and that Rimm's reports of Thomas's methods were therefore truthful. One of the remarkable hypocrisies of this David Jackson's behavior is that he's privately critical of Philip Elmer-DeWitt -- in the strongest terms, really -- and of the "reporters" (formerly researchers/fact checkers, whose official status as reporters was established as the result of union negotiations, according to David) involved in the Rimm story. He's always quite willing to distance himself from that story -- he thinks that if he were involved, Rimm wouldn't have gotten away with anything as far as Time is concerned. Publicly, however, Jackson continues to show a united front with Time magazine. I hope them pay him well. Topic 1108 [media]: Martin Rimm and the Cyberporn Scare, Continued #612 of 842: Mike Godwin (mnemonic) Fri Dec 1 '95 (17:56) 9 lines 'You know, it doesn't matter if the pictures on Thomas' system are "from nudist colonies"; if they contain naked children, they are illegal.' This is a false statement of the law. Citation to follow. Topic 1108 [media]: Martin Rimm and the Cyberporn Scare, Continued #613 of 842: Mike Godwin (mnemonic) Fri Dec 1 '95 (18:00) 39 lines 18 USC 2252: Certain activities relating to material involving the sexual exploitation of minors. (a)Any person who-- (1) knowingly transports or ships in interstate or foreign commerce by any means including by computer or mails, any visual depiction, if-- (A) the producing of such visual depiction involves the use of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct; and (B) such visual depiction is of such conduct; or (2) knowingly receives, or distributes, any visual depiction that has been transported or shipped in interstate or foreign commerce by any means including by computer or mailed or knowingly reproduces any visual depiction for distribution in interstate or foreign commerce by any means including by computer or through the mails if-- (A) the producing of such visual depiction involves the use of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct; and (B) such visual depiction is of such conduct; shall be punished as provided in subsection (b) of this section. (b)Any individual who violates this section shall be fined not more than $100,000, or imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both, but, if such individual has a prior conviction under this section, such individual shall be fined not more than $200,000, or imprisoned not less than five years nor more than 15 years, or both. Any organization which violates this section shall be fined not more than $250,000.