morgan@ms.uky.edu : Re: What is a
morgan@ms.uky.edu : Re: Academic Privacy Question
kadie@eff.org (Car : Re: Academic Privacy Question
sean@ms.uky.edu (S : Re: Academic Privacy Question
SKAPUR@ccmail.suny : Re: Academic Privacy Question
SKAPUR@ccmail.suny : Re: Academic Privacy Question
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kadie@eff.org (Car : Re: What is a
kadie@eff.org (Car : Re: Academic Privacy Question
kadie@eff.org (Car : Re: What is a
ECL4MV2@MVS.OAC.UC : Re: Re: What is a
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-------------------
From kadie Thu Sep 26 13:50:13 1991
To: cafb-mail
Subject: Computers and Academic Freedom mailing list (batch edition)
Status: R
Computers and Academic Freedom mailing list (batch edition)
Thu Sep 26 13:48:13 EDT 1991 (part 2)
In this issue:
From: morgan@ms.uky.edu (Wes Morgan)
Subject: Re: What is a library?
Message-ID: <1991Sep16.134005.21338@ms.uky.edu>
References: <1991Sep12.185627.26936@eff.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1991 13:40:05 GMT
kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
>I advocate treating newsgroup selection like selection at a library.
To a point, I agree with this treatment. I would not, however, treat
Netnews as a "public library" in the same sense as the local County
Library. *Anyone* in a given area may access that area's library; uni-
versity libraries do not always follow that policy. Here at UK, for
instance, patrons from outside the UK/Lexington area are encouraged to
use their local public/university library; they can, of course, access
UK's collections through Interlibrary Loan. I think that this is more
of a control measure than any bias against "outsiders". In fact, even
Lexington-area folks are encouraged to use the Lexington Public Library
as their "first stop". I think that this is intended to maximize the
availability of UK's holdings FOR UK'S POPULATION. This is not necessarily
a bad thing.
Netnews, on the other hand, should not be defined as a public library.
It is not intended for the general population; rather, it is intended
for that group of people using that particular computer system. There
*are* sites which give access to just about everyone, in both the public
and academic worlds; many more, however, do not provide such access to
the general public.
>But is Netnews only like a library, or is it a library? The answer to
>this question is more than academic. Some states such as Michigan
>exempt libraries from their antipandering laws.
I would think that Netnews is more like a "reading room" than a library.
There is no permanent "collection" of Netnews; there is only the current,
transitory holdings. There is no "checkin/checkout" facility; users are
free, in most cases, to make personal copies of news articles. Netnews
is also far more participatory than a library; while a library patron is
certainly free to donate copies of their work to a library, the library
does not usually provide the physical means of doing so, as Netnews does.
>Maine: "'Media center' means any library utilizing print as well as
>extensive nonprint resources and materials."
Personally, I like this definition. I can easily envision Netnews as
a changing, almost amorphous "media center". Since there is no perma-
nence involved in Netnews (with the exception of archive sites for par-
ticular groups), the repository nature of libraries has no parallel here.
Wes
--
morgan@ms.uky.edu |Wes Morgan, not speaking for| ....!ukma!ukecc!morgan
morgan@engr.uky.edu |the University of Kentucky's| morgan%engr.uky.edu@UKCC
morgan@ie.pa.uky.edu |Engineering Computing Center| morgan@wuarchive.wustl.edu
-------------------
From: morgan@ms.uky.edu (Wes Morgan)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID: <1991Sep16.135211.16610@ms.uky.edu>
Date: 16 Sep 91 13:52:11 GMT
References: <1631971F0E812E9F@ccmail.sunysb.edu> <9109091741.AA23739@dsacg2.dsac.dla.mil>
In article jsaker@unomaha.edu (Jamie Saker) writes:
>Unfortunately, too many information providors (esp. USENET news providors)
>adopt a policy of censoring information (either through selectively not
>carrying/providing certain newsgroups, or controlling the content of the
>groups) without carefully examining this legal issue.
Or a library selectively carrying/providing certain magazines or books?
>For example, if the University of X imposes newsfeed censorship by
>not carrying certain groups, say alt.sex.*, alt.drugs.*, rec.arts.erotica,
>and a few other select groups determined to be of a character not
>acceptable to the administration, they are accepting the role as
>the guarantor of the information to their consumer.
Are such guarantees implicit in a *free* service? I could understand
the application of such a guarantee if the service was purchased, but
not for a free service.
>Now, if an article containing offensive material slips by (such as
>someone accidentely crossposting material from alt.sex.bondage to
>comp.emacs, and a consumer takes offense at the material and sues
>the information provider (University of X), since they acted as the
>guarantor of the information, they most likely have accepted
>responsibility and therefore are liable.
If a person borrows a chemistry book from the public library, attempts to make
nitroglycerin based on that publication, and causes personal or property
damage, is the library liable?
(I'd also point out the rather small possibility of an *accidental*
crosspost between alt.sex.bondage and comp.emacs......8) )
>Overall, the most rational choice is to either carry the full service,
>provide disclaimers (and require acceptance of the disclaimer prior to
>the provision of service) or don't carry the service at all.
I wonder how many sites in Usenet actually carry a full feed?
Does anyone have a guess on this one?
--
morgan@ms.uky.edu |Wes Morgan, not speaking for| ....!ukma!ukecc!morgan
morgan@engr.uky.edu |the University of Kentucky's| morgan%engr.uky.edu@UKCC
morgan@ie.pa.uky.edu |Engineering Computing Center| morgan@wuarchive.wustl.edu
-------------------
From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID: <1991Sep16.145527.4005@eff.org>
References: <1631971F0E812E9F@ccmail.sunysb.edu> <9109091741.AA23739@dsacg2.dsac.dla.mil> <1991Sep16.135211.16610@ms.uky.edu>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1991 14:55:27 GMT
In article jsaker@unomaha.edu (Jamie Saker) writes:
[...]
>Unfortunately, too many information providors (esp. USENET news providors)
>adopt a policy of censoring information (either through selectively not
>carrying/providing certain newsgroups, or controlling the content of the
>groups) without carefully examining this legal issue.
[...]
At least the way librarians use the words, the failure to "select"
material is not (necessarily) "censorship". It depends on the
selector's reasons. For example, "costs too much" is a legitimate
reason to not select something, while "too controversial" is not.
The American Library Association sells a workbook on creating a
selection policy. It costs only $2. You can get an order form via
anonymous ftp from
ftp.eff.org:pub/academic/library/order.form.ala
The order form is also available via email. For more info, send email
to archive-server@eff.org. Include the lines "help" and "index".
[Disclaimer: I'm not a member or agent of the ALA; just a
satisfied reader of their material)]
morgan@ms.uky.edu (Wes Morgan) writes:
[...]
>I wonder how many sites in Usenet actually carry a full feed?
>Does anyone have a guess on this one?
[...]
Only 1% of the sites carry rec.sport.triathlon. Only 5% carry
misc.books.technical. 58% carry alt.sex.pictures. 72% carry alt.sex.
86% carry rec.humor.funny.
These estimates are from the "USENET Readership report for Aug 91"
posted in news.lists by reid@decwrl.DEC.COM (Brian Reid).
The report also gives the estimated cost per month per reader. (I think
this is based on modem transfer costs, not disk space, but they should
be proportional).
5 cents for rec.sport.triathlon. 1 cent for misc.books.technical. 55
cents for alt.sex.pictures. 2 cents for alt.sex. Less than 1/2 cent
for rec.humor.funny.
All these groups are "free" (except for storage and transport costs).
There are also pay newsgroups. The U. of Illinois subscribes to a full
Clarinet feed. This includes UPI news, Miss Manners, Dave Barry, and
Dr. June M. Reinisch's column about sex.
- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@eff.org or kadie@cs.uiuc.edu
I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
-------------------
From: sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID: <1991Sep16.152803.565@ms.uky.edu>
References: <1631971F0E812E9F@ccmail.sunysb.edu> <9109091741.AA23739@dsacg2.dsac.dla.mil> <1991Sep16.135211.16610@ms.uky.edu>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1991 15:28:03 GMT
morgan@ms.uky.edu (Wes Morgan) writes:
|>Unfortunately, too many information providors (esp. USENET news providors)
|>adopt a policy of censoring information (either through selectively not
|>carrying/providing certain newsgroups, or controlling the content of the
|>groups) without carefully examining this legal issue.
|Or a library selectively carrying/providing certain magazines or books?
Libraries select their materials based on demand, cost, and
administrative overhead. Most people involved in libraries that I've
talked with would like any material to be available immediately upon
demand. But they're not going to carry what no one will ever look at,
they won't buy things they can't afford, and they can only keep as
many books as they can succesfully track.
For many Usenet sites, including the ECC at UKY, the newsfeed is free.
The cost of maintaining usenet is the cost of disk space, plus a
certain (small, in my own experiences with B and C news) adminstrative
overhead. Carrying or not carrying a newsgroup amounts to 2 minutes of
editing a file.
A decision not to carry "vice" groups surely cannot be argued on
the basis of resources. Instead, the decision has apparently been made
by a subjective interpretation of which newsgroups the administrators
feel are appropriate.
So what is appropriate for an Engineering Computer Center? Sex has
nothing to do with engineering, so that is right out. But neither does
food, guns, music, games, religion, kids, or Yugoslavia. And yet a
full newsfeed would include all of these topic areas. I don't hear
talk of excluding these interest groups.
Is appropriateness really the issue here?
Suppose someone there specifically requested to read those groups?
Would that not by definition make them appropriate? Would that be true
of any other group?
Perhaps the administration there is afraid of backlash from carrying
the groups? Have they researched what happens at other sites?
How would a library handle this backlash?
Why would a computing center be different than a library in it's
policy of choosing what information to withhold from people? Under
whose direction is that sort of decision to be made?
And finally, but most importantly:
How were the users consulted in making these decisions?
Sean
--
** Sean Casey
** "The way your head works is God's own private mystery." - Nicholas Cage
--
** Sean Casey
** "The way your head works is God's own private mystery." - Nicholas Cage
-------------------
From: SKAPUR@ccmail.sunysb.edu (Sanjay Kapur)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID: <64A10A11EE821004@ccmail.sunysb.edu>
Sender: SKAPUR@ccmail.sunysb.edu
Date: 17 Sep 91 14:49:00 GMT
Approved: usenet@eff.org
>From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
>All these groups are "free" (except for storage and transport costs).
>There are also pay newsgroups. The U. of Illinois subscribes to a full
>Clarinet feed. This includes UPI news, Miss Manners, Dave Barry, and
>Dr. June M. Reinisch's column about sex.
I have three questions:
1) How much does the Clarinet feed cost?
2) Who pays for it (Library? Computing Center? some other department?)
3) What restrictions are imposed on who can access it? Can anyone not
associated with the University access it? If not, it rules out underage
problems.
Sanjay Kapur |Internet: Sanjay.Kapur@sunysb.edu
Systems Staff, Computing Services, |Bitnet: SKAPUR@USB
State University of New York, |SPAN/HEPnet: 44132::SKAPUR
Stony Brook, NY 11794-2400 |Phone:(516)632-8029, FAX:(516)632-8046
-------------------
From: SKAPUR@ccmail.sunysb.edu (Sanjay Kapur)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID: <6665D4606E821004@ccmail.sunysb.edu>
Sender: SKAPUR@ccmail.sunysb.edu
Date: 17 Sep 91 15:01:00 GMT
Approved: usenet@eff.org
>From: sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey)
>
>Libraries select their materials based on demand, cost, and
>administrative overhead. Most people involved in libraries that I've
>talked with would like any material to be available immediately upon
>demand. But they're not going to carry what no one will ever look at,
>they won't buy things they can't afford, and they can only keep as
>many books as they can succesfully track.
>
Do you really believe that? Librarians will swear up and down that this is
what they do and this is what they are taught in library school but I simply
do not believe it. There is too much factual evidence to the contrary.
>For many Usenet sites, including the ECC at UKY, the newsfeed is free.
>The cost of maintaining usenet is the cost of disk space, plus a
>certain (small, in my own experiences with B and C news) adminstrative
>overhead. Carrying or not carrying a newsgroup amounts to 2 minutes of
>editing a file.
>
>A decision not to carry "vice" groups surely cannot be argued on
>the basis of resources. Instead, the decision has apparently been made
>by a subjective interpretation of which newsgroups the administrators
>feel are appropriate.
>
Just as the decision not to carry Penthouse or Playgirl or Hustler by a
library. Certainly there is demand for them. People will read them.
Compared to other magazines, journals and books, the cost is low. What is the
justification "your local librarian" gives for not carrying them? My best
guess for the real reason: Fear of censorship. Also quite a few librarians
are women and tend to be offended by the degradation of women in these
magazines. I know Librarians should not let their personal opinions
interfere with the management of a library, but Librarians are also human
beings.
>
>Sean
>--
Sanjay Kapur |Internet: Sanjay.Kapur@sunysb.edu
Systems Staff, Computing Services, |Bitnet: SKAPUR@USB
State University of New York, |SPAN/HEPnet: 44132::SKAPUR
Stony Brook, NY 11794-2400 |Phone:(516)632-8029, FAX:(516)632-8046
-------------------
From: russotto@eng.umd.edu (Matthew T. Russotto)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID: <1991Sep17.161909.1598@eng.umd.edu>
Date: 17 Sep 91 16:19:09 GMT
References: <64A10A11EE821004@ccmail.sunysb.edu>
In article <64A10A11EE821004@ccmail.sunysb.edu> Sanjay Kapur writes:
>>From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
>>All these groups are "free" (except for storage and transport costs).
>>There are also pay newsgroups. The U. of Illinois subscribes to a full
>>Clarinet feed. This includes UPI news, Miss Manners, Dave Barry, and
>>Dr. June M. Reinisch's column about sex.
>
>I have three questions:
>
>1) How much does the Clarinet feed cost?
>2) Who pays for it (Library? Computing Center? some other department?)
>3) What restrictions are imposed on who can access it? Can anyone not
> associated with the University access it? If not, it rules out underage
> problems.
Actually, it does not, not if underage is considered to be 'under 18'
--
Matthew T. Russotto russotto@eng.umd.edu russotto@wam.umd.edu
.sig under construction, like the rest of this campus.
Just say NO to police searches and seizures. Make them use force.
(not responsible for bodily harm resulting from following above advice)
-------------------
From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: What is a library?
Message-ID: <1991Sep17.172347.9216@eff.org>
References: <1991Sep12.185627.26936@eff.org> <1991Sep16.134005.21338@ms.uky.edu>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1991 17:23:47 GMT
Wes Mogan's note listed differences and similarities between
traditional libraries and Netnews-as-library. Here is my list of
differences (based mostly on Wes's) and comments.
-------
Traditional: Mostly books
Netnews: Computer files
These media are functionally similar. Both contain information.
-------
Traditional: Information is distributed (mostly) by loaning material
Netnews: Information is distributed (mostly) by copying material
I think this is a characteristic difference.
-------
Traditional: Uses interlibrary loan to loan materials to users of other
libraries
Netnews: Gives copies of all its materials to other Netnews sites
Both Traditional and Netnews meet the goal of sharing information with
people outside your system.
-------
Traditional: User borrows material
Netnews: User reads material on a terminal
This difference means that geography is much less important to the
Netnews user than to the Traditional user. For example, I've never
borrowed a book from outside of my home state of Illinois, but
everyday I read Netnews on the eff.org machine in Boston.
As Sanjay (I think) and others have pointed out, the difference
gives Netnews users more choice
-------
Traditional: Usually available to everyone
Netnews: Only available to people with computers accounts on that machine
I think this difference has more to do with funding than with the type
of material. My impression is that library accessibility (for any type
of library) is mostly a function funding.
-------
Traditional: has a permanent collection
Netnews: "Only current transitory holdings"
This difference is not as large as it may appear. Traditionals do not
keep all material forever. Material that is out-of-date or redundant
is deselected to make room for new material.
Netnews does not dispose of all material. As Wes pointed out, users
can easily create a personal archive of materials. Also, some sites
archive material for others. For example, here at eff.org, I archive
CAF-TALK.
-------
Traditional: User reads
Netnews: User reads and writes
I think this is an important difference. In my opinion, Netnews is a
library *and* a student publication.
[I'm put conclusions in another note]
- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@eff.org or kadie@cs.uiuc.edu
I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
-------------------
From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID: <1991Sep17.173611.9508@eff.org>
References: <64A10A11EE821004@ccmail.sunysb.edu>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1991 17:36:11 GMT
Writing about the U. of Illinois, I said:
>There are also pay newsgroups. The U. of Illinois subscribes to a full
>Clarinet feed. This includes UPI news, Miss Manners, Dave Barry, and
>Dr. June M. Reinisch's column about sex.
SKAPUR@ccmail.sunysb.edu (Sanjay Kapur) writes:
>1) How much does the Clarinet feed cost?
I don't know. I would guess thousands a year.
>2) Who pays for it (Library? Computing Center? some other department?)
It is administered by our Computing Services Organization. I don't
know how they pay for it.
>3) What restrictions are imposed on who can access it? Can anyone not
> associated with the University access it? If not, it rules out underage
> problems.
Any student at the U. of I can get a "free" student account (paid for,
in part, by a mandatory computer fee). Anyone with a free account can
read any newsgroups. Although "underage problems" are not ruled out,
they seem to be nonexistent.
- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@eff.org or kadie@cs.uiuc.edu
I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
-------------------
From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: What is a library?
Message-ID: <1991Sep17.180603.10263@eff.org>
References: <1991Sep12.185627.26936@eff.org> <1991Sep16.134005.21338@ms.uky.edu> <1991Sep17.172347.9216@eff.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1991 18:06:03 GMT
Here is my functional definition of library (based on the Indiana
definition):
A library is a collection of items in which knowledge is recorded; for
which a person who as knowledge of the materials, their arrangement,
their use is responsible; and which are for the use of individuals or
groups in meeting their recreational, informational, educational,
research or cultural needs.
[The definition is not perfect. What *is* the difference between a
book store, a video rental store, Kinko's class notes service, a pay
library, and a free public library? - Carl]
Documents such as the ALA's Library Bill of Rights seem fully
applicable to functional libraries. (Ok, ok, Right #6 is a little
tricky).
-------
LIBRARY BILL OF RIGHTS
The American Library Association affirms that all libraries are forums for
information and ideas, and that the following basic policies should guide
their services.
1. Books and other library resources should be provided for the
interest, information, and enlightenment of all people of the community the
library serves. Materials should not be excluded because of the origin,
background, or views of those contributing to their creation.
2. Libraries should provide materials and information presenting all
points of view on current and historical issues. Materials should not be
proscribed or removed because of partisan or doctrinal disapproval.
3. Libraries should challenge censorship in the fulfillment of their
responsibility to provide information and enlightenment.
4. Libraries should cooperate with all persons and groups concerned
with resisting abridgment of free expression and free access to ideas.
5. A person's right to use a library should not be denied or abridged
because of origin, age, background, or views.
6. Libraries which make exhibit spaces and meeting rooms available to
the public they serve should make such facilities available on an equitable
basis, regardless of the beliefs or affiliations of individuals or groups
requesting their use.
Adopted June 18, 1948; amended February 2, 1961, and January 23, 1980, by the
ALA Council.
[Made available by permission of the American Library Association.]
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@eff.org or kadie@cs.uiuc.edu
I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
-------------------
From: ECL4MV2@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU (Michael Van Norman)
Subject: Re: Re: What is a library?
Message-ID: <199109171823.AA10699@eff.org>
Sender: ECL4MV2@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU
Date: 17 Sep 91 18:22:00 GMT
Approved: usenet@eff.org
> [...]
>
> Traditional: User reads
> Netnews: User reads and writes
>
> I think this is an important difference. In my opinion, Netnews is a
> library *and* a student publication.
library *and* a ------- publication.
NetNews is used by far more individuals than just students.
>
> [...]
>
> Carl Kadie -- kadie@eff.org or kadie@cs.uiuc.edu
> I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
-------------------
From: morgan@ms.uky.edu (Wes Morgan)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID: <1991Sep17.191043.20340@ms.uky.edu>
Date: 17 Sep 91 19:10:43 GMT
References: <1991Sep16.135211.16610@ms.uky.edu> <1991Sep16.152803.565@ms.uky.edu>
sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) writes:
>
>For many Usenet sites, including the ECC at UKY, the newsfeed is free.
>The cost of maintaining usenet is the cost of disk space, plus a
>certain (small, in my own experiences with B and C news) adminstrative
>overhead.
Plus the overhead of the people actually reading the news. If a system
is primarily provided for academic/research use, the availability of the
system for that use must be the first priority. I encourage readers to
check the impact of, say, 20 people running rn on a system. It can
definitely affect the system. Don't forget to add in the overhead of nntp, if
you offer that service. Since Usenet is built on the idea of sites helping
each other, let's also include the overhead involved in feeding another
site (or several other sites). News can, indeed, be a resource hog.
>A decision not to carry "vice" groups surely cannot be argued on
>the basis of resources. Instead, the decision has apparently been made
>by a subjective interpretation of which newsgroups the administrators
>feel are appropriate.
Ah, but *all* such decisions are subjective. I don't recall ever seeing
a hue and cry over some site's decision not to carry comp.binaries.atari-st.
Only the "high profile", controversial newsgroups attract the baying of the
free-speech wolves. By your argument, every site should carry a complete
newsfeed. We all know that this is not always possible.
I'd also point out that there are *many* sites offering netnews. If a
user doesn't like the selection my site offers, they are quite free to
find other sites. There are several BBS systems in this area, for instance,
which offer Usenet feeds. Users are quite welcome to use my system to access
public access sites such as the Well, if they wish to secure access
to that system. Just because mine is free (to the user) does NOT mean that
I have to offer EVERYTHING.
>So what is appropriate for an Engineering Computer Center? Sex has
>nothing to do with engineering, so that is right out. But neither does
>food, guns, music, games, religion, kids, or Yugoslavia. And yet a
>full newsfeed would include all of these topic areas. I don't hear
>talk of excluding these interest groups.
Actually, I have mentioned in this forum (and others) that I will probably
start a news feed of only the comp.* and sci.* newsgroups. Depending on
the availability of disk space and the impact on the system, I'd add rec.*
next. soc.* and talk.* would be the next hierarchies added, and alt.*
(and biz.*, probably) would be the last ones added.
Now, I never said that I would carry a *full* hierarchy. I don't think
that I would add alt.binaries.pictures when I added the rest of the alt.*
hierarchy. That's a case where I would definitely have to check the disk
space situation *before* adding the group. The same criteria applies to
the comp.binaries.* subhierarchy; despite its value, it is a "high impact"
newsgroup from a system point of view.
>Is appropriateness really the issue here?
No, and I said so at the outset of this discussion; it's merely the topic
which some readers seized upon as food for debate.
>Suppose someone there specifically requested to read those groups?
>Would that not by definition make them appropriate?
If I start a newsfeed of comp.* and sci.*, and a user requests that I
begin carrying comp.binaries.atari-st (to use my earlier example), I
would be inclined to do so. I might expire it earlier than text-only
groups, since the comp.binaries groups tend to have large traffic.
I would consider that newsgroup appropriate, since it fits into the
hierarchies offered at that time.
If, however, that same user came to me with a request for, say,
rec.sport.basketball, I would not be inclined to add it, since I
(for purposes of this example) wouldn't be carrying *anything* from
that hierarchy at all.
>Would that be true of any other group?
No; the mere fact that someone wants to read, say, _Stern_ or _Der Speigel_
does not mean that the library should rush out and start a subscription.
>Perhaps the administration there is afraid of backlash from carrying
>the groups?
I have concerns, which I have voiced in earlier messages. I'm not
personally afraid of administrative action; however, I can easily
envision a scenario in which some well-placed complaints could result
in the complete loss of news service.
Sean, we've both had experiences where bureaucrats with no knowledge of
a given area have made administrative decisions affecting that area; heck,
it's almost the national sport of university bureaucrats. I don't want
to give anyone the ammo that would help shoot down news. I don't consider
that "fear"; I call it "caution".
>Have they researched what happens at other sites?
No, not in the best sense of the word "research". Many readers have
described events at their sites, with both positive and negative endings.
I've taken those comments into consideration, as well as the comments made
in this forum.
>Why would a computing center be different than a library in it's
>policy of choosing what information to withhold from people?
Because the computing center's mission is not always the same as a
library's. Many, if not most, computing centers are tasked to provide
computing power as a tool for research or education in a given field.
(That's certainly the case with this organization) News, as it is today,
is not a necessary tool in that research or education; it is a "luxury
item", in my opinion. I've never heard of research being impeded by a
lack of netnews.
>Under whose direction is that sort of decision to be made?
Well, there would be several people involved in the decision. Here's
a few of them that come to my mind:
- The system administrator. He's the one who sees
the day-to-day condition of the system.
- The director of the facility. He's the one who may have
to justify the resource usage, as well as any complaints
that may arise.
- The director of the governing authority (Dean of a college,
perhaps, or a faculty committee). They are the ones who will
decide how this service contributes to (or detracts from) the
overall mission of the organization.
- The site providing the news feed(s). Some sites, due to various
considerations, may not provide feeds for all groups. I can't
name a site that does this, but I'd guess that some such sites
exist.
>And finally, but most importantly:
>
>How were the users consulted in making these decisions?
How would I select the users to consult? I have 1900 users on this system,
most of whom only know enough Unix to send and read electronic mail and keep
track of their files. The vast majority of them have never even heard of
netnews. How can I get a real opinion from that?
In conclusion, let me point out that the general consensus of this forum
(see CAF-news for July/August) seems to be that netnews is a "limited
public forum", and that legal precedents (supplied by Carl Kadie) explicitly
give the administrators of such a forum the right to decide the character
of the forum, i.e. which topics are suitable for the forum. After that
consensus was reached, the debate moved to the selection criteria used in
that decision. I agree completely that such selection should be rooted in
objective terms, but the decision is indeed the news administrator's to make.
Wes
--
morgan@ms.uky.edu |Wes Morgan, not speaking for| ....!ukma!ukecc!morgan
morgan@engr.uky.edu |the University of Kentucky's| morgan%engr.uky.edu@UKCC
morgan@ie.pa.uky.edu |Engineering Computing Center| morgan@wuarchive.wustl.edu
-------------------
From: kadie@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: Freedom of Expression (Re: Discrimination against ...
Message-ID: <1991Sep17.195000.9335@m.cs.uiuc.edu>
References: <1991Sep14.225304.5115@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> <1991Sep17.150121.24441@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1991 19:50:00 GMT
dorner@pequod.cso.uiuc.edu (Steve Dorner) writes:
> Your identity CAN be discovered, you CAN face University
> discipline for such postings, and there ARE people willing to
> make the effort to see that it happens.
ffujita@s.psych.uiuc.edu (Frank Fujita) writes:
>Freedom of expression does not apply to the use of UIUCnet. If one
>owns a press, one is free to print what one likes. If one does not
>own a press, the govt is not obliged to provide you with one.
>
>I do not know if there are any strictures that have been violated,
>but our freedom of expression would not make such strictures
>unconstitutional.
Students on this campus have a contractual and constitutional right to
free expression.
The contractual right comes from our "Code on Campus Affairs". It
says:
"STATEMENT ON INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS
I. Preamble
A student at the University of Illinois at the Urbana-Champaign campus
is a member of the University community of which all members have at
least the rights and responsibilities common to all citizens, free from
institutional censorship;"
...
"III. Campus Expression
A. Discussion and expression of all views is permitted within the
University subject only to requirements for the maintenance of order.
[...]
B. Members and organizations in the University community may invite
and hear any persons of their own choosing, subject only to reasonable
requirements on time, place, and manner for use of University facilities.
C. The campus press and media are to be free of censorship. The editors
and managers shall not be arbitrarily suspended because of student,
faculty, administration, alumni, or community disapproval of editorial
policy or content."
...
"VI. Student Affairs
[...]
B. Freedom of Inquiry and Expression
1. Students and student organizations should be free to examine and to
discuss all questions of interest to them, and to express opinions
publicly and privately. [...]
2. Students should be allowed to invite and hear any person of their
own choosing. [...] The University's control of campus facilities should
not be used as a device of censorship. It should be made clear to the
academic and larger community that sponsorship of guest speakers
does not necessarily imply approval or endorsement of the views expressed
either by the sponsoring group or the institution."
The Constitutional right comes from the First (and 14th) Amendments.
The University's uiuc.general is a "limited public forum" under the
Supreme Court' Public-Forum Doctrine. (Uiuc.general is limited in the
sense that only people with computer accounts can access it. It is not
limited to a particular set of topics.)
Here are is the law for limited public forums:
[Quotes are from the decision "San Diego Committee v. Governing Bd.,
790 F.2d 1471 (1986)". Quotes within quotes are from the Supreme
Court.]
'"[C]ontent-based prohibition must be narrowly drawn to effectuate a
compelling state interest."'
"Having established a limited public forum [the school] cannot, absent
a compelling governmental interest, exclude speech otherwise within
the boundaries of the forum ...."
"Thus the identical broad free speech rights attach to [traditional]
and [limited] types of public forums, [ref] although in the latter
type of forums those broad rights apply only within the particular
boundaries of the specific forum that has been established."
For more details see the most recent issue of the "Computers and
Academic Freedom News" (vol. 1, no. 25). It is available on-line from
m.cs.uiuc.edu as newsgroup alt.comp.acad-freedom.news. If you can't
get it there, it is available via anonymous ftp it from
ftp.eff.org:pub/academic/news/cafn01n25.
- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
From kadie Fri Sep 27 12:15:40 1991
To: cafb-mail
Subject: Computers and Academic Freedom mailing list (batch edition)
Status: R
Computers and Academic Freedom mailing list (batch edition)
Fri Sep 27 12:14:51 EDT 1991
In this issue:
fwp1@Jester.CC.MsS : Re: Academic Privacy Question
nbc2134@dsacg2.dsa : Re: What is a
MCNAB PD@DARWIN.NT : Re: What is a
kadie@eff.org (Car : Re: What is a
kadie@herodotus.cs : Re: (Undergrad) Internet
kadie@eff.org (Car : Re: What is a
kadie@eff.org (Car : Ownership rights
kadie@eff.org (Car : Re: Ownership rights
kadie@eff.org (Car : Re: Ownership rights
ALILESTE@idbsu.idb : Re: Ownership rights
The addresses for the list are now:
comp-academic-freedom-talk@eff.org - for contributions to the list
or caf-talk@eff.org
listserv@eff.org - for automated additions/deletions
(send email with the line "help" for details.)
caf-talk-request@eff.org - for administrivia
-------------------
From: fwp1@Jester.CC.MsState.Edu (Frank Peters)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID: <1672@ra.MsState.Edu>
Date: 17 Sep 91 20:35:28 GMT
References: <64A10A11EE821004@ccmail.sunysb.edu>
Sender: usenet@ra.MsState.Edu
Nntp-Posting-Host: jester.cc.msstate.edu
In article <64A10A11EE821004@ccmail.sunysb.edu> Sanjay Kapur writes:
>>From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
>>All these groups are "free" (except for storage and transport costs).
>>There are also pay newsgroups. The U. of Illinois subscribes to a full
>>Clarinet feed. This includes UPI news, Miss Manners, Dave Barry, and
>>Dr. June M. Reinisch's column about sex.
>
>I have three questions:
>
>1) How much does the Clarinet feed cost?
The cost (for educational sites) is based upon the size of the
organization. The costs (as of last spring at any rate:
Class Enrollment Monthly Cost
Small < 5,000 $175
Medium 5,000 - 20,000 $350
Large 20,000 and up $580
>2) Who pays for it (Library? Computing Center? some other department?)
That depends upon the institution, of course, and I can't speak for
the University of Illinois. A few likely possibilities:
1) A line item in a university wide budget...possibly tossed in with
other general costs.
2) A computing center under the same budget as software packages and
licenses.
3) Some department (or departments) which benefit from it pick up
the cost using the same mechanism used for buying software of
particular use to a department.
>3) What restrictions are imposed on who can access it? Can anyone not
> associated with the University access it? If not, it rules out underage
> problems.
Access is generally limited to the University (within broad limits. For
instance, you can print and bind article collections and make them available
in your library).
Note, however, that that doesn't necessarily limit access to 'underage'
individuals. Quite a few freshmen are under 18 and presumably a child
genius who enrolled in a school at age 10 would be allowed to use the
computer.
Frank Peters Internet: fwp1@CC.MsState.Edu Bitnet: FWP1@MsState
Phone: (601)325-2942 FAX: (601)325-8921
I am prepared to give you a hint, but it will cost you 35 points.
-------------------
From: nbc2134@dsacg2.dsac.dla.mil (Robert F Solon)
Subject: Re: What is a library?
Message-ID: <9109181420.AA16344@dsacg2.dsac.dla.mil>
Sender: nbc2134@dsacg2.dsac.dla.mil
References: <1991Sep17.180603.10263@eff.org>
Date: 18 Sep 91 14:20:14 GMT
Approved: usenet@eff.org
> -------
> LIBRARY BILL OF RIGHTS
>
>
> The American Library Association affirms that all libraries are forums for
> information and ideas, and that the following basic policies should guide
> their services.
>
> 1. Books and other library resources should be provided for the
> interest, information, and enlightenment of all people of the community the
> library serves. Materials should not be excluded because of the origin,
> background, or views of those contributing to their creation.
>
> 2. Libraries should provide materials and information presenting all
> points of view on current and historical issues. Materials should not be
> proscribed or removed because of partisan or doctrinal disapproval.
>
To what extent should Nos. 1 and 2 apply? Is every newsgroup a
library, or only Usenet as a whole? What about archives? Are they
libraries? Is each major hierarchy a library?
Bob
__
Bob Solon, rsolon@dsac.dla.mil
DSAC-BCC -- "We Code, You Explode!!"
-------------------
From: MCNAB_PD@DARWIN.NTU.EDU.AU (Mark Neely)
Subject: Re: What is a library?
Message-ID: <910919001657.20205765@DARWIN.NTU.EDU.AU>
Sender: MCNAB_PD@DARWIN.NTU.EDU.AU
Date: 19 Sep 91 00:16:57 GMT
Approved: usenet@eff.org
Whilst thumbing through the recent offerings of the _Harvard Law Review_ I
stumbled across an interesting note entitled:
_Addressing the new hazards of the high technology workplace_
see (1991) 104 _Harvard Law Review_ 1898
The author of the note looks at three main areas:
"This Note argues that in the absence of legislative solutions,
electronic performance monitoring and electronic mail intercept-
ion are regulated by a system of free market and common law
mechanisms that fails to protect workers from abusive practices.
It then proposes legislation to ensure that new technology in
the workplace enhances rather than degrades the quality of
worklife."
The note discusses various aspect of computerisation in the workplace,
such as computer crime and corporate vulnerability; electronic performance
monitoring; and the practice of monitoring e-mail.
Whilst I was particularly interested in the article because of its
discussion of the recent cases against Epson and Nissan by employees
who had had their e-mail monitored and read, the article is worth reading
for its treatment of the other issues as well.
I want to take some time to quote some material from the note (which is
almost of article length). Unfortunately the authors' name is not
mentioned (though I assume it is one of the _Harvard Law Journal_'s
editors). In any event, the note encompasses a well balanced and
indepth treatment of the aplication of laws in CyberSpace (and the
workplace).
The note is neither too legalistic, nor is it superficial. As such
I would recommend it to anyone who is interested in this area.
NB:- All the typos are mine :)
Mark Neely
Research Student
Northern Territory Univ. Law School
Darwin, NT Australia
------Begin Quotes
Introduction
...
...the advent of computer technology in the workplace has created
new opportunities for abuse for which existing legal catagories have
been inadequate. The new hazards involve computer crime, which arises
from corporate computer systems' vulnerability to intruders; electronic
performance monitoring, which subjects employees to extensive and some-
times intrusive supervision by their employers; and electronic mail
interception, which exposes employees' electronic mail messages to their
employers' scrutiny. Each of these hazards presents serious public policy
concerns.
...
Computer crime - Corporate Vulnerability
...
Compared with traditional thefts, in which the loss is limited to the
amount a thief can carry off corporate premises, sophisticated computer
crimes have the potential for much greater damage and face a much lower
chance of detection.
...
The legal definitions of "property", "theft", and "damages" were often
too narrow to encompass the new generation of crimes involving computer-
based information.
...
Electronic Performance Monitoring - Supervised Employees
...
Electronic monitoring allows supervisors to monitor continuously, to
monitor everything, and to monitor in secret, none of which is possible
with strictly human observation.
...
Electronic monitoring consists of at least three different practices:
computer-based monitoing, service observation, and telephone call accounting.
...
In a 1987 report to Congress, the Office of Technology Assessment (OTA)
found that electronic monitoring raised serious concerns because it "can
be abused and...has potential for invasions of employee privacy, as well
as assaults on their autonomy, personal dignity, and health."
...
Due to electronic monitoring's detrimental efects on workers, several
critics of the practice have argued that monitoring ultimately will
impose costs on employers in the form of high turnover, low morale,
and rising health care costs attibutable to stress-related disorders.
...
No statutes specficially address workplace electronic monitoring.
...
Under the common law tort of invasions of privacy, "intrusion into
seclusion" has been the one cause of action considered possibly
applicable to the case of electronic monitoring. The tort requires
an intrusion into a private place that would be highly offensive to
a reasonable person.
[Note - The author goes on to say that the public nature of the
workplace would seem to make such a claim laudible. But this is not
so in the case of e-mail monitoring: electronic mail between employees
is something that cannot be seen by other employees (at least, not in
the ordinary course of office affairs), and has - by its very nature -
an air of privacy surrounding it. Such an argument is enhanced by the
fact that an employee must first log onto his account by entering
a username and *password* before being able to read his e-mail.]
...
Some union contracts regualting the use of electronic monitoring
have been negotiated.
...
Electronic Mail - The Ambiguous Status of Electronic Mail
...
Conflict arises mostly because employees' and employers'
expectations of electronic mail differ. Employees often consider
electronic mail to be their private property, as they do their
personal letters. They use it to write private notes to their co-
workers, sometimes about their personal lives or reflecting their
negative opinions of their supervisors. The password requirement of
their electronic mail accounts foster the belief that their mail is
not available for others to read. Employers, by contrast, argue that
electronic mail is a business resource to be used for business
purposes. Electronic mail message become part of the company computer
system and therefore, emplyers assert, are company property. Employers
also claim legitimate business reasons for reading their employees'
electronic mail, including the need to ensure that employees do not
use the system for personal communications.
...
In a 1985 study, OTA observed that "when mail is sent in electronic
form, the existing protections are weak, ambiguous, or non-existent."
OTA noted that legal claims, if any, could arise only from unauthorized
goverment interception of messages or under computer theft laws.
...
In the absence of a statutory directive, workers may invoke the
common law tort of invasion of privacy to contest the interception
of electronic mail messages. Because it pertains to the workplace,
such a claim suffers from the same limitations as it does in the
electronic monitoring context. [See my note above] Even if employees
could succeed in establishing that their messages were private and not
merely their employers' property, they would still need to prove that
their expectations of privacy were reasonable and that their
employers' interceptions were not excused as legitimate business practises.
-----Close quote
If anyone has any information regarding this new area of law, please
feel free to pass it on :)
Mark N.
-------------------
From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: What is a library?
Message-ID: <1991Sep18.152828.6297@eff.org>
References: <1991Sep17.180603.10263@eff.org> <9109181420.AA16344@dsacg2.dsac.dla.mil>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1991 15:28:28 GMT
nbc2134@dsacg2.dsac.dla.mil (Robert F Solon) writes:
....
>To what extent should Nos. 1 and 2 apply? Is every newsgroup a
>library, or only Usenet as a whole? What about archives? Are they
>libraries? Is each major hierarchy a library?
...
I would say that every newsgroup is a publication. Usenet is a set of
publications. Netnews is a larger set of publications. Each major
hierarchy is a smaller set of publications. None of these are
libraries.
The Netnews service on a particular machine is a library service. The
sys admin who selects which newsgroups will be carried on a particular
machine is acting as a librarian. (Most sys admins also, of course,
have other duties.)
An archive on a particular machine may also be a library. (Archives
and news servers on other machines are other libraries.)
Maybe if I do a little creative rewriting it will be clear:
---------
Hypothetical Netnews Bill of Rights
All computers offering Netnews are forums for information and ideas,
and that the following basic policies should guide their services.
1. Newsgroups and other Netnews resources should be provided
for the interest, information, and enlightenment of all people of the
community the Netnews provider serves. Materials should not be
excluded because of the origin, background, or views of those
contributing to their creation.
2. Computers offering Netnews should provide materials and
information presenting all points of view on current and historical
issues. Materials should not be proscribed or removed because of
partisan or doctrinal disapproval.
3. Netnews providers should challenge censorship in the
fulfillment of their responsibility to provide information and
enlightenment.
4. Netnews providers should cooperate with all persons and
groups concerned with resisting abridgment of free expression and free
access to ideas.
5. A person's right to use a Netnews service should not be
denied or abridged because of origin, age, background, or views.
6. Netnews providers which provides resources for user
expression or assembly should make such resources available on an
equitable basis, regardless of the beliefs or affiliations of
individuals or groups requesting their use.
------
- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@eff.org or kadie@cs.uiuc.edu
I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
-------------------
Xref: eff comp.admin.policy:995 alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk:964
From: kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: (Undergrad) Internet Access?
Message-ID:
Sender: news@m.cs.uiuc.edu (News Database (admin-Mike Schwager))
Nntp-Posting-Host: herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu
References: <11595@olympus.wustl.edu> <1991Sep11.140604.20040@sctc.com> <1991Sep17.225237.9936@cco.caltech.edu>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1991 16:05:01 GMT
[Summary for alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk readers:
The question is: Can undergrads be restricted from internet access
(ftp/telnet/email) by an analogy to the closed stacks and rare book
rooms of some libraries.
]
The American Library Association is generally against "Restricted
Access to Library Materials" except when restrictions are needed for
the physical preservation of material. But "[a]ny such [restrictive]
policies must be carefully formulated and administered with extreme
attention to the principles of intellectual freedom."
In a week or so the ALA policy statement on "Restricted Access to
Library Materials" should be available via anonymous ftp to
ftp.eff.org:pub/academic/library.
If you are an undergrad at a site that requires you to beg for access,
try this: Say that you need internet access so that you can more
easily access the Computers and Academic Freedom Archive so that you
can get a copy the American Library Associations's statement on
restricted access.
- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
-------------------
From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: What is a library?
Message-ID: <1991Sep18.192424.11039@eff.org>
References: <1991Sep17.180603.10263@eff.org> <9109181420.AA16344@dsacg2.dsac.dla.mil> <1991Sep18.152828.6297@eff.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1991 19:24:24 GMT
When I created turned the "Library Bill of Rights" into the
"Hypothetical Netnews Bill of Rights", I found that I could not
simply replace the word "library" with any other word.
I think the problem is that "library" has several meanings
and "Netnews" has several meanings.
In the interest of clearly showing the lack of clarity, here is a list
of definitions (with examples of use):
Netnews: a world-wide forum
"I got flamed for something I posted to Netnews."
Netnews: a local forum
"We allow anyone with an account to post to Netnews."
Netnews: the set of all newsgroups
"Do you get all the Netnews newsgroups?"
Netnews: The world-wide anarchy that distributes newsgroups
"We participate in Netnews by forwarding notes to other sites."
Netnews: A service provided to users of some computers
"The account on ux1 includes email and Netnews."
Netnews: a collection of newsgroups articles administered by a sys admin
"They've added 'alt.boomarang' to our local Netnews."
Library: a forum
"The New Age movement is discussed extensively the periodical
section of the library."
Library: a building or set of rooms that provides library services
"I'm within walking distance to my public library."
Library: an organization that provides library services
"The University Library got money for the Browsing Room."
Library: a collection of books administered by a librarian
"They've added 'How to make a boomerang' to the library."
Newspaper: a forum
"My letter to the editor appeared in the newspaper."
Newspaper: some paper with writing on it
"Save the newspapers for recycling."
Newspaper: an organization that publishes newspaper
"Ms. Smith owes the local paper."
- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@eff.org or kadie@cs.uiuc.edu
I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
-------------------
From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Ownership rights
Message-ID: <1991Sep18.195255.11706@eff.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1991 19:52:55 GMT
I was asked in email about the apparent contradiction between my
positions and the postion of Gene Spafford in his "What is Usenet?"
posting in news.announce.newusers. Specifically, I was asked about
these sections of "What is Usenet?":
-------
4. Usenet is not a right.
Some people misunderstand their local right of "freedom of speech"
to mean that they have a legal right to use others' computers to
say what they wish in whatever way they wish, and the owners of
said computers have no right to stop them.
Those people are wrong. Freedom of speech also means freedom not
to speak. If I choose not to use my computer to aid your speech,
that is my right. Freedom of the press belongs to those who own
one.
Also, this section:
CONTROL
-------
Every administrator controls his own site. No one has any real
control over any site but his own.
The administrator gets her power from the owner of the system she
administers. As long as her job performance pleases the owner, she
can do whatever she pleases, up to and including cutting off Usenet
entirely. Them's the breaks.
Sites are not entirely without influence on their neighbors, however.
There is a vague notion of "upstream" and "downstream" related to the
direction of high-volume news flow. To the extent that "upstream"
sites decide what traffic they will carry for their "downstream"
neighbors, those "upstream" sites have some influence on their
neighbors' participation in Usenet. But such influence is usually
easy to circumvent; and heavy-handed manipulation typically results in
a backlash of resentment.
-----
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@eff.org or kadie@cs.uiuc.edu
I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
-------------------
From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: Ownership rights
Message-ID: <1991Sep18.200431.12028@eff.org>
References: <1991Sep18.195255.11706@eff.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1991 20:04:31 GMT
[This is my response to "What is Usenet?" - Carl]
"What is Usenet?" says that the owner can do anything he or she likes.
This is generally true, but what if the owner is "The People"? How do
We The People decide what we want to do with Our property.
I think the answer is that we follow the rules agreed to in the
Constitution. As interpreted by the Supreme Court, those rules, for
example, prohibit viewpoint discrimination in government-owned forums.
(For references that support this opinion, see CAF-news #25,
ftp.eff.org:pub/academic/news/cafv01n25.)
I'm not suggesting that Netnews as a whole is government owned and must
not practice viewpoint discrimination. I believe, however, that a public
university could not legally prohibit so-called prolife postings while
allowing so-called prochoice postings.
Furthermore, my understanding of the law is that the state has wide
latitude in deciding which topics it will allow in newly created
forums. In other words, a public university administrator has the
legal authority to allow gun control discussion while prohibiting
abortion discussions. But how *should* an administrator decide which
topics to include and which to exclude? I think library policy offers
an excellent guide.
- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@eff.org or kadie@cs.uiuc.edu
I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
-------------------
From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: Ownership rights
Message-ID: <1991Sep18.201504.12286@eff.org>
References: <1991Sep18.195255.11706@eff.org> <1991Sep18.200431.12028@eff.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1991 20:15:04 GMT
[This was email from Jeffrey M. Schweiger, schweige@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil,
in response to my previous note. I'm posting it with Mr. Schweiger's
permission. - Carl]
OK. No big problem here.
I do see a lot of discussion on the ownership issue, and don't see it as
quite the same thing as an academic freedom issue.
Also, with respect to public universities, do students from out of state
have any claim to "ownership"? They are not 'citizens' of the state that
runs the university. With respect to private universities, do the students
have any claim at all to "ownership"?
Please also note that I am not necessarily disagreeing with your goals. What
I may be disagreeing with is in describing what the current 'legal' status
is of Usenet access on university campuses.
If you feel that this discussion has merit for further distribution, please
feel free to repost it.
Jeff Schweiger
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@eff.org or kadie@cs.uiuc.edu
I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
-------------------
From: ALILESTE@idbsu.idbsu.edu (Dan Lester)
Subject: Re: Ownership rights
Message-ID: <199109182102.AA13854@eff.org>
Sender: ALILESTE@idbsu.idbsu.edu
References:
Date: 18 Sep 91 21:53:45 GMT
Approved: usenet@eff.org
On Wed, 18 Sep 1991 20:15:04 GMT Carl M. Kadie said:
>I do see a lot of discussion on the ownership issue, and don't see it as
>quite the same thing as an academic freedom issue.
I agree...they are similar, but different.
>Also, with respect to public universities, do students from out of state
>have any claim to "ownership"? They are not 'citizens' of the state that
YES! They have the same rights as any other students. Although there
may be appropriate "discrimination" against out of state students on the
amount of fees they pay, they have all other rights. Well, they did in
any of the nine state universities I have ever attended or worked in,
in nine different states. Of course there could be some exceptions out
there somewhere.....
>runs the university. With respect to private universities, do the students
And they often ARE citizens of the state. They pay taxes to the state.
They may well be registered to vote in the state. In most states it is
much easier to be eligible to vote in the state than it is to be an
"in-state resident" for tuition purposes.
>have any claim at all to "ownership"?
Well, I think they should, but as have never worked in a private
institution except for one year when I attended one many years ago,
I will reserve further comment.
>I may be disagreeing with is in describing what the current 'legal' status
>is of Usenet access on university campuses.
And this is part of the problem with Usenet. Libraries can make
their decisions without affecting other institutions or libraries.
As has been clearly indicated, Usenet is much more interactive. And for
the libraries it is also a case of just purchasing information. In Usenet
and Internet and such there is the case of purchasing and also producing
information that further complicates it.
Remember, I am in favor of COMPLETE intellectual freedom. But I am also
well aware that such a goal may not always be possible, and even if it is
that we had damn well better be ready to fight for and defend it.
dan
************************************************************************
* Dan Lester Bitnet: alileste@idbsu
* Associate University Librarian Internet: alileste@idbsu.idbsu.edu
* Boise State University
* Boise, Idaho 83725 You can be sure these ideas are my
* 208-385-1234 own; no one else would have them.
************************************************************************
From kadie Fri Sep 27 12:24:56 1991
To: cafb-mail
Subject: Computers and Academic Freedom mailing list (batch edition)
Status: R
Computers and Academic Freedom mailing list (batch edition)
Fri Sep 27 12:24:16 EDT 1991
In this issue:
kadie@eff.org (Car : Re: Ownership rights
otto@fsu1.cc.fsu.e : Re: Academic Privacy Question
kadie@eff.org (Car : ClariNet (was Re: Academic Privacy Question)
kadie@eff.org (Car : Library Policy Archive
amanda@visix.com ( : Re: Academic Privacy Question
ATKINSON@Kentvm.Ke : Re: Academic Privacy Question
SKAPUR@ccmail.suny : Re: Academic Privacy Question
SKAPUR@ccmail.suny : Re: Academic Privacy Question
ALILESTE@idbsu.idb : Re: Academic Privacy Question
ATKINSON@Kentvm.Ke : Re: Academic Privacy Question
The addresses for the list are now:
comp-academic-freedom-talk@eff.org - for contributions to the list
or caf-talk@eff.org
listserv@eff.org - for automated additions/deletions
(send email with the line "help" for details.)
caf-talk-request@eff.org - for administrivia
-------------------
From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: Ownership rights
Message-ID: <1991Sep18.211118.14100@eff.org>
References: <1991Sep18.195255.11706@eff.org> <1991Sep18.200431.12028@eff.org> <1991Sep18.201504.12286@eff.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1991 21:11:18 GMT
schweige@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil (Jeffrey M. Schweiger) writes:
[...]
>Also, with respect to public universities, do students from out of state
>have any claim to "ownership"? They are not 'citizens' of the state that
>runs the university.
Your ownership rights as a partial owner of a public university are
limited. Basically, you get to vote. (Similarly, owning Exxon stock
gives you a vote but doesn't give you a discount on gas.)
Public universities are prohibited from some activities not because
those activities are directed *at* their owners but because those
activities were prohibited *by* their owners. These owners, We The
People, created the bylaws (the Constitution, state constitutions,
University charters, etc) that constrain public universities.
Thus, a public university is prohibited from practicing, for example,
viewpoint-discrimination-within-forum even against a student from
another state. In fact, I think even international students are safe.
>With respect to private universities, do the students
>have any claim at all to "ownership"?
[...]
No. Students at private universities do, however, have contractual
rights. For example, if the Student Code says "Students shall be free
of institutional censorship" and institution censors a student, then
the University is in breach of contract.
- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@eff.org or kadie@cs.uiuc.edu
I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
-------------------
From: otto@fsu1.cc.fsu.edu (John G. Otto)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID: <1991Sep18.202805.29892@mailer.cc.fsu.edu>
Date: 18 Sep 91 21:55:41 GMT
References: <64A10A11EE821004@ccmail.sunysb.edu>
Sender: news@mailer.cc.fsu.edu (Usenet News File Owner)
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4
Nntp-Posting-Host: fsu1.cc.fsu.edu
In article <64A10A11EE821004@ccmail.sunysb.edu>, SKAPUR@ccmail.sunysb.edu (Sanjay Kapur) writes...
>1) How much does the Clarinet feed cost?
>2) Who pays for it (Library? Computing Center? some other department?)
>3) What restrictions are imposed on who can access it? Can anyone not
> associated with the University access it? If not, it rules out underage
> problems.
When I looked at the ClariNet sample, it was all soviet union news.
I had been under the impression that the ClariNet service itself was
a complete wire-service. Is this not so?...jgo
-------------------
From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: ClariNet (was Re: Academic Privacy Question)
Message-ID: <1991Sep19.000443.3749@eff.org>
References: <64A10A11EE821004@ccmail.sunysb.edu> <1991Sep18.202805.29892@mailer.cc.fsu.edu>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1991 00:04:43 GMT
otto@fsu1.cc.fsu.edu (John G. Otto) writes:
[...]
>When I looked at the ClariNet sample, it was all soviet union news.
>I had been under the impression that the ClariNet service itself was
>a complete wire-service. Is this not so?...jgo
Here is a list of the ClariNet newsgroups I get at U. of Illinois
(I think the ClariNet sample only shows one of these at a time):
clari.biz.commodity
clari.biz.courts
clari.biz.economy.world
clari.biz.economy
clari.biz.features
clari.biz.finance
clari.biz.finance.earnings
clari.biz.finance.personal
clari.biz.finance.services
clari.biz.invest
clari.biz.labor
clari.biz.market
clari.biz.market.amex
clari.biz.market.dow
clari.biz.market.ny
clari.biz.market.otc
clari.biz.market.report
clari.biz.mergers
clari.biz.misc
clari.biz.products
clari.biz.top
clari.biz.urgent
clari.canada.biz
clari.canada.briefs.ont
clari.canada.briefs.west
clari.canada.briefs
clari.canada.general
clari.canada.newscast
clari.feature.dave_barry
clari.feature.kinsey
clari.feature.mike_royko
clari.feature.miss_manners
clari.nb.apple
clari.nb.business
clari.nb.general
clari.nb.govt
clari.nb.ibm
clari.nb.index
clari.nb.review
clari.nb.telecom
clari.nb.top
clari.nb.trends
clari.nb.unix
clari.net.admin
clari.net.announce
clari.net.products
clari.net.talk
clari.news.almanac
clari.news.arts
clari.news.aviation
clari.news.books
clari.news.briefs
clari.news.bulletin
clari.news.canada
clari.news.children
clari.news.consumer
clari.news.ctl
clari.news.demonstration
clari.news.disaster
clari.news.economy
clari.news.election
clari.news.entertain
clari.news.europe
clari.news.features
clari.news.fighting
clari.news.flash
clari.news.goodnews
clari.news.gov.agency
clari.news.gov.budget
clari.news.gov.corrupt
clari.news.gov.international
clari.news.gov.officials
clari.news.gov.state
clari.news.gov.taxes
clari.news.gov.usa
clari.news.gov
clari.news.group.blacks
clari.news.group.gays
clari.news.group.jews
clari.news.group.women
clari.news.group
clari.news.hot.east_europe
clari.news.hot.iraq
clari.news.interest.animals
clari.news.interest.history
clari.news.interest.people.column
clari.news.interest.people
clari.news.interest.quirks
clari.news.interest
clari.news.issues.civil_rights
clari.news.issues.conflict
clari.news.issues.family
clari.news.issues
clari.news.labor
clari.news.labor.strike
clari.news.law.civil
clari.news.law.crime.sex
clari.news.law.crime.trial
clari.news.law.crime.violent
clari.news.law.crime
clari.news.law.drugs
clari.news.law.investigation
clari.news.law.police
clari.news.law.prison
clari.news.law.profession
clari.news.law.supreme
clari.news.law
clari.news.lifestyle
clari.news.military
clari.news.movies
clari.news.music
clari.news.politics.people
clari.news.politics
clari.news.religion
clari.news.sex
clari.news.terrorism
clari.news.top.world
clari.news.top
clari.news.trends
clari.news.trouble
clari.news.tv
clari.news.urgent
clari.news.weather
clari.sports.baseball
clari.sports.basketball
clari.sports.features
clari.sports.football
clari.sports.hockey
clari.sports.misc
clari.sports.motor
clari.sports.tennis
clari.sports.top
clari.tw.aerospace
clari.tw.computers
clari.tw.defense
clari.tw.education
clari.tw.electronics
clari.tw.environment
clari.tw.health.aids
clari.tw.health
clari.tw.misc
clari.tw.nuclear
clari.tw.science
clari.tw.space
clari.tw.stocks
clari.tw.telecom
clari.feature.movies
clari.streetprice
clari.feature.lederer
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@eff.org or kadie@cs.uiuc.edu
I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
-------------------
Xref: eff alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk:973 alt.censorship:1541 comp.admin.policy:997 news.misc:1469
From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Library Policy Archive
Message-ID: <1991Sep19.021307.6357@eff.org>
Followup-To: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk,comp.admin.policy
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1991 02:13:07 GMT
[I've directed followups to alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk and comp.admin.policy.]
For years librarians have had to face issues that the Netnews admins
are just beginning to see. Issues like access for minors, responding
to calls for censorship, confidentiality of user information, and
selecting material.
Through their professional society, the American Library Association
(ALA), librarians have developed policy recommendations that address
these tough issues. Many of these recommendations are now available
on-line.
I've enclosed the README file for this new archive.
Carl Kadie, Computers and Academic Freedom archivist
=================
README
-----------------
Library Policy Archive
[part of the Computers and Academic Freedom (CAF) Archive
[part of the Electronic Freedom Foundation (EFF) Archive]]
This is an on-line collection of library policy statements. It
includes the American Library Associations's Freedom To Read statement
and the ALA Library Bill of Rights. (The ALA material is made
available by permission of the American Library Association.)
The archive is accessible via anonymous ftp to ftp.eff.org
(192.88.144.3). It is in directory "pub/academic/library". File README
is a detailed description of the items in this directory. The archive
is also accessible via email. For information on email access send
email to archive-server@eff.org. In the body of your note include the
lines "help" and "index".
For more information, to make contributions, or to report typos
contract Carl Kadie (kadie@eff.org).
=================
access.children.nonprint.ala
-----------------
"Access for Children and Young People to Videotapes and Other Nonprint
Formats"
An interpretation by the American Library Association of the "Library
Bill of Rights"
=================
access.minors.ala
-----------------
"Free Access to Libraries for Minors"
An interpretation by the American Library Association of the "Library
Bill of Rights"
=================
access.policies.ala
-----------------
"Regulations, policies, and Procedures Affecting Access to Library
Resources and Services"
An interpretation by the American Library Association of the "Library
Bill of Rights"
=================
access.restictions.ala
-----------------
"Restricted Access to Library Materials"
An interpretation by the American Library Association of the "Library
Bill of Rights"
=================
bill-of-rights.ala
-----------------
The Library Bill of Rights from the American Library Association.
=================
bulletin-boards.ala
-----------------
"Exhibit Spaces and Bulletin Boards"
An interpretation by the American Library Association of the "Library
Bill of Rights"
=================
censorship.def.ala
-----------------
The American Library Assocation's definition of "censorship" and related
terms.
=================
challenged-materials.ala
-----------------
"Challenged Materials"
An interpretation by the American Library Association of the "Library
Bill of Rights"
=================
confidentiality.1.ala
-----------------
The American Library Association's "Policy on Confidentiality of
Library Records"
=================
confidentiality.2.ala
-----------------
The American Library Association's "Statement Concerning
Confidentiality of Personally Identifiable Information about Library
Users"
=================
diversity.ala
-----------------
"Diversity in Collection Development"
An interpretation by the American Library Association of the "Library
Bill of Rights"
=================
elec.rights1-4
-----------------
This is the ASCII version of a printed booklet distributed at the
American Library Association conference in July 1991. The program was
sponsored by the Library and Information Technology Association.
Details follow on ordering the full print monograph.
[From ftp.apple.com:alug/rights/elec.rights1-4]
=================
evaluating-collections.ala
-----------------
"Evaluating Library Collections"
An interpretation by the American Library Association of the "Library
Bill of Rights"
=================
expurgation.ala
-----------------
"Expurgation of Library Materials"
An interpretation by the American Library Association of the "Library
Bill of Rights"
=================
free-expression.ala
-----------------
"The Universal Right to Free Expression"
An interpretation by the American Library Association of the "Library
Bill of Rights"
=================
freedom-to-read.ala
-----------------
The "Freedom to Read Statement" of the American Library Association
and Association of American Publishers.
=================
int-freedom.can
-----------------
Canadian Library Association Statement on Intellectual Freedom
=================
labeling.ala
-----------------
"Statement on Labeling"
An interpretation by the American Library Association of the "Library
Bill of Rights"
=================
library-programs.ala
-----------------
"Library Initiated Programs as a Resource"
An interpretation by the American Library Association of the "Library
Bill of Rights"
=================
meeting-rooms.ala
-----------------
"Meeting Rooms"
An interpretation by the American Library Association of the "Library
Bill of Rights"
=================
order.form.ala
-----------------
Information on how to order intellectual freedom material from the
American Library Association. Much of the material is free.
=================
school-libraries.ala
-----------------
"Access to Resources And Services in the School Library Media Program"
An interpretation by the American Library Association of the "Library
Bill of Rights"
=================
=================
Last update
Wed Sep 18 21:43:19 EDT 1991
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@eff.org or kadie@cs.uiuc.edu
I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
-------------------
From: amanda@visix.com (Amanda Walker)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID: <1991Sep19.165857.3117@visix.com>
Sender: news@visix.com
References: <6665D4606E821004@ccmail.sunysb.edu>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 91 16:58:57 GMT
SKAPUR@ccmail.sunysb.edu (Sanjay Kapur) writes:
Just as the decision not to carry Penthouse or Playgirl or Hustler
by a library. Certainly there is demand for them. People will
read them. Compared to other magazines, journals and books, the
cost is low. What is the justification "your local librarian"
gives for not carrying them? My best guess for the real reason:
Fear of censorship.
I disagree with you here. The only reasons I have heard for not carrying
any materials in a general collection are lack of money or lack of demand.
Librarians really do tend to be fierce opponents of censorship. The only
other justification I have heard is that it doesn't fit into the collection,
but this only applies to special-purpose collections (medical libraries
usually don't have too many books on house rewiring, for example :)).
Taking books away from a librarian is like taking a gun away from an NRA
lifetime member :)...
Amanda Walker amanda@visix.com
Visix Software Inc. ...!uunet!visix!amanda
--
"Fear not those who argue but those who dodge." --Marie Ebner-Eschenbach
-------------------
From: ATKINSON@Kentvm.Kent.edu (John Atkinson)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID: <199109191903.AA09665@eff.org>
Sender: ATKINSON@Kentvm.Kent.edu
References:
Date: 19 Sep 91 18:37:06 GMT
Approved: usenet@eff.org
> Compared to other magazines, journals and books, the
> cost is low.
The subscription price for a library is NOT what it would be for
you -- do you really know what "low" is?
> What is the justification "your local librarian"
> gives for not carrying them? My best guess for the real reason:
> Fear of censorship.
>
>I disagree with you here.
Me too.
I don't know about all university libraries, but most if not all magazines
here are purchases from funds allocated to departments, and the purchases
are dictated by the departments. Everyone wants more than they can afford.
I'm afraid that Hustler would be far down on the demand list below good
serials that we don't currently have the money for. With a limited fund,
I doubt that Playgirl will make it ahead of Psychometrika or even Psychology
Today. There has been much anguish when serial purchases must be cut back,
so no "low" price is insignificant.
-------------------
From: SKAPUR@ccmail.sunysb.edu (Sanjay Kapur)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID: <1D536BF5BE401E65@ccmail.sunysb.edu>
Sender: SKAPUR@ccmail.sunysb.edu
Date: 19 Sep 91 19:23:00 GMT
Approved: usenet@eff.org
>
>> Compared to other magazines, journals and books, the
>> cost is low.
>The subscription price for a library is NOT what it would be for
>you -- do you really know what "low" is?
It is not the same for journals, it is the same for most magazines.
>
>> What is the justification "your local librarian"
>> gives for not carrying them? My best guess for the real reason:
>> Fear of censorship.
>>
>>I disagree with you here.
>
>Me too.
>
I do not think you are in the real world then.
>I don't know about all university libraries, but most if not all magazines
>here are purchases from funds allocated to departments, and the purchases
>are dictated by the departments. Everyone wants more than they can afford.
>I'm afraid that Hustler would be far down on the demand list below good
>serials that we don't currently have the money for. With a limited fund,
>I doubt that Playgirl will make it ahead of Psychometrika or even Psychology
>Today. There has been much anguish when serial purchases must be cut back,
>so no "low" price is insignificant.
Ha!
A scholarly journal can easily cost several hundred to thousands of dollars a
year in subscriptions. None of the magazines that I had mentioned have a
subscription price anywhere close to that.
You bring up another very interesting point:
The selection is done by the department and not the Librarian. Are you
implying that it is OK for the person with the funds to "dictate" what to
subscribe in a library? Why should a newsgroup selection procedure be any
different then?
Sanjay Kapur |Internet: Sanjay.Kapur@sunysb.edu
Systems Staff, Computing Services, |Bitnet: SKAPUR@USB
State University of New York, |SPAN/HEPnet: 44132::SKAPUR
Stony Brook, NY 11794-2400 |Phone:(516)632-8029, FAX:(516)632-8046
-------------------
From: SKAPUR@ccmail.sunysb.edu (Sanjay Kapur)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID: <1E965BC61E401E65@ccmail.sunysb.edu>
Sender: SKAPUR@ccmail.sunysb.edu
Date: 19 Sep 91 19:32:00 GMT
Approved: usenet@eff.org
>From: amanda@visix.com (Amanda Walker)
>
>SKAPUR@ccmail.sunysb.edu (Sanjay Kapur) writes:
>
> Just as the decision not to carry Penthouse or Playgirl or Hustler
> by a library. Certainly there is demand for them. People will
> read them. Compared to other magazines, journals and books, the
> cost is low. What is the justification "your local librarian"
> gives for not carrying them? My best guess for the real reason:
> Fear of censorship.
>
>I disagree with you here. The only reasons I have heard for not carrying
>any materials in a general collection are lack of money or lack of demand.
When a library subscribes to thirty different newsmagazines and fifteen
differenet newspapers from around the world which very few people actually
read, I do not know how lack of money can be justified for something that may
actually have a high demand (i.e. Penthouse, Hustler or Playgirl).
>Librarians really do tend to be fierce opponents of censorship.
I agree that librarians tend to be fierce opponents of censorship, but the
reason they are opposed to it is because they fear it greatly.
Sanjay Kapur |Internet: Sanjay.Kapur@sunysb.edu
Systems Staff, Computing Services, |Bitnet: SKAPUR@USB
State University of New York, |SPAN/HEPnet: 44132::SKAPUR
Stony Brook, NY 11794-2400 |Phone:(516)632-8029, FAX:(516)632-8046
-------------------
From: ALILESTE@idbsu.idbsu.edu (Dan Lester)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID: <199109191949.AA10490@eff.org>
Sender: ALILESTE@idbsu.idbsu.edu
References:
Date: 19 Sep 91 20:38:23 GMT
Approved: usenet@eff.org
On Thu, 19 Sep 91 16:58:57 GMT Amanda Walker said:
>I disagree with you here. The only reasons I have heard for not carrying
>any materials in a general collection are lack of money or lack of demand.
>Librarians really do tend to be fierce opponents of censorship. The only
>Taking books away from a librarian is like taking a gun away from an NRA
>lifetime member :)...
>
>
>Amanda Walker amanda@visix.com
Thank you, Amanda. I was tempted to respond in kind, but held off, hoping
that a non-librarian would do it for me. Thank you again.
One of the reasons that few libraries have Penthouse or Hustler is that
they are NOT asked for. Many people who purchase them do it secretively
late at night down at the seven eleven. Or they subscribe in a plain
brown wrapper. They surely don't want to go into their public or college
library and ask the "little old lady with her hair in a bun" for it, either
to read, or to request the purchase. Their shame is their problem, but
I really believe t hat it is an impediment.
This library, for example, carries The Advocate, and at the request of
several gay students. We have had several male, "born again" Christians
complain about it. The pictures and ads are quite explicit. The ads
describe bondage and other sexual practices that many or most of us find
beyond our personal preferences. But we have defended it. I have
personally defended it verbally and in writing, and will continue to do so.
And, I happen to be married, hetero, father of three, etc.
Librarians DO for the most part vigorously oppose censorship. Some don't,
but there may even be a few NRA members in favor of gun control, too.
Guess that just proves we librarians are human too.
dan
************************************************************************
* Dan Lester Bitnet: alileste@idbsu
* Associate University Librarian Internet: alileste@idbsu.idbsu.edu
* Boise State University
* Boise, Idaho 83725 You can be sure these ideas are my
* 208-385-1234 own; no one else would have them.
************************************************************************
-------------------
From: ATKINSON@Kentvm.Kent.edu (John Atkinson)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID: <199109192005.AA11086@eff.org>
Sender: ATKINSON@Kentvm.Kent.edu
References:
Date: 19 Sep 91 19:52:15 GMT
Approved: usenet@eff.org
On Thu, 19 Sep 1991 15:32 EDT Sanjay Kapur said:
>
>When a library subscribes to thirty different newsmagazines and fifteen
>differenet newspapers from around the world which very few people actually
>read, I do not know how lack of money can be justified for something that may
>actually have a high demand (i.e. Penthouse, Hustler or Playgirl).
>
This is a good point. Perhaps we should also quit holding classes on boring
subjects that no one really likes and just show movies or have stand up
comics or something that may actually have a high demand.
A university library is a reference resource, not a popular reading center.
From kadie Fri Sep 27 16:02:36 1991
To: cafb-mail
Subject: Computers and Academic Freedom mailing list (batch edition)
Status: R
Computers and Academic Freedom mailing list (batch edition)
Fri Sep 27 16:01:52 EDT 1991
In this issue:
edguer@alpha.ces.c : Re: Academic Privacy Question
ATKINSON@Kentvm.Ke : Re: Academic Privacy Question
tk0jut1@mp.cs.niu. : Re: Academic Privacy Question
SKAPUR@ccmail.suny : Re: Academic Privacy Question
SKAPUR@ccmail.suny : Re: Academic Privacy Question
ALILESTE@idbsu.idb : Re: Academic Privacy Question
SKAPUR@ccmail.suny : Re: Academic Privacy Question
SKAPUR@ccmail.suny : Re: Academic Privacy Question
SKAPUR@ccmail.suny : Libraries vs. Computers: Availability of Controversial ma
zane@ddsw1.MCS.COM : Re: Ownership rights
The addresses for the list are now:
comp-academic-freedom-talk@eff.org - for contributions to the list
or caf-talk@eff.org
listserv@eff.org - for automated additions/deletions
(send email with the line "help" for details.)
caf-talk-request@eff.org - for administrivia
-------------------
From: edguer@alpha.ces.cwru.edu (Aydin Edguer)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID: <9109192018.AA03728@sentinel.CES.CWRU.Edu>
Sender: edguer@alpha.ces.cwru.edu
References: <199109192005.AA11086@eff.org>
Date: 19 Sep 91 20:18:45 GMT
Approved: usenet@eff.org
> >When a library subscribes to thirty different newsmagazines and fifteen
> >differenet newspapers from around the world which very few people actually
> >read, I do not know how lack of money can be justified for something that
> >may actually have a high demand (i.e. Penthouse, Hustler or Playgirl).
> This is a good point. Perhaps we should also quit holding classes on boring
> subjects that no one really likes and just show movies or have stand up
> comics or something that may actually have a high demand.
>
> A university library is a reference resource, not a popular reading center.
Oh... Now I understand. Penthouse, Hustler, or Playgirl cannot be references
but any newspaper can be?? How silly of us to have listened to the people who
were argueing that alt.sex and alt.sex.pictures could be important academic
resources.
The point is that rather than subscribing to mostly redundant information,
why not try to expand the subjects available for study?
Disgusted with hypocritical rhetoric,
Aydin Edguer
-------------------
From: ATKINSON@Kentvm.Kent.edu (John Atkinson)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID: <199109192035.AA11921@eff.org>
Sender: ATKINSON@Kentvm.Kent.edu
References:
Date: 19 Sep 91 20:27:57 GMT
Approved: usenet@eff.org
On Thu, 19 Sep 1991 15:23 EDT Sanjay Kapur said:
>
>The selection is done by the department and not the Librarian. Are you
>implying that it is OK for the person with the funds to "dictate" what to
>subscribe in a library?
Yes. Why should the Geography department spend money on Penthouse? They
have an academic program to meet and demands for many publications. Their
library money should be spent on academic serials.
>Why should a newsgroup selection procedure be any
>different then?
>
The difference is who is paying for it and the cost. As someone pointed
out, carrying binaries can be expensive in terms on on-line storage space.
This argument fails with many controversial lists, however. Then the
spector of censorship rears its ugly head. We would love (well, some of
us) to have everything available, but we live in the real world, as you
so aptly put it. In the real world, I'm not sure that much of usenet meets
the academic mission of the university. Many of those that carry a part
of it do so because they fear that lists that antagonize some people will
result in the cancelling of the entire program.
It is not the system people who are doing the censoring -- they simply
fear the results of imprudence. It is a valid question, as someone asked
earlier, if this fear is justified.
But I think the bottom line is this. The university cannot impose on the
free speech of the students. But should the university spend money on
things that have little if nothing to do with the academic mission?
Of course, the entire fallacy in all my arguments is that if this were the
only reason, then the library wouldn't carry any non-academic magazines.
That means that I wouldn't be able to go there and read Sports Illustrated
either (unless maybe Physical Education ordered it?). Gee, now that I
think about it, I haven't seen that on the shelves...
-------------------
From: tk0jut1@mp.cs.niu.edu (jim thomas)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID: <1991Sep19.205400.16652@mp.cs.niu.edu>
Sender: tk0jut1@mp.cs.niu.edu
References: <1E965BC61E401E65@ccmail.sunysb.edu>
Date: 19 Sep 91 20:54:00 GMT
Approved: usenet@eff.org
>When a library subscribes to thirty different newsmagazines and fifteen
>differenet newspapers from around the world which very few people actually
>read, I do not know how lack of money can be justified for something that may
>actually have a high demand (i.e. Penthouse, Hustler or Playgirl).
Try to understand what people are saying: 1) FUNDS ARE FINITE,
2) Priorities are made on the basis of fiscal constraints, 3) Most schools
are undergoing a period of severe retrenchment rather than expansion.
A given department may continue a periodical read by only a dozen people
who find it crucial to their field. The number of readers may not be as
important as the impact of removing a periodical. Quantity of readers
is not necessarily a wise criterion for selecting subscriptions.
Arcane newspapers from around the world are generally provided for students
from those areas to enable them to maintain cultural contact with their
homeland, not for general readers. When faced with a choice, these papers
seem a better use of resources than providing native students with
such readily available 'zines such as Hustler, McCalls, or TV Guide.
Your "failure to understand" hardly changes the reality that fiscal
constraints are real, devastating, and lead to some difficult choices.
>>Librarians really do tend to be fierce opponents of censorship.
>I agree that librarians tend to be fierce opponents of censorship, but the
>reason they are opposed to it is because they fear it greatly.
Are you saying that there is something less honorable about opposing
censorship if we fear it? Don't we all? What's your point?
Jim Thomas
-------------------
From: SKAPUR@ccmail.sunysb.edu (Sanjay Kapur)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID: <38D4D2AF2E401E65@ccmail.sunysb.edu>
Sender: SKAPUR@ccmail.sunysb.edu
Date: 19 Sep 91 22:40:00 GMT
Approved: usenet@eff.org
>From: Dan Lester
>
>Thank you, Amanda. I was tempted to respond in kind, but held off, hoping
>that a non-librarian would do it for me. Thank you again.
>
>One of the reasons that few libraries have Penthouse or Hustler is that
>they are NOT asked for. Many people who purchase them do it secretively
>late at night down at the seven eleven. Or they subscribe in a plain
>brown wrapper. They surely don't want to go into their public or college
>library and ask the "little old lady with her hair in a bun" for it, either
>to read, or to request the purchase. Their shame is their problem, but
>I really believe t hat it is an impediment.
The magazines should be on the shelf, NOT behind the counter under the control
of the "little old lady with her hair in a bun". Putting them behind a
counter is severly restricting access to them and, therefore in fact,
is censorship.
The argument that they will be damaged by readers if left out on the shelves
is the same type of security argument that is used by us computer types and
we are called names like "censors" for it.
>
>This library, for example, carries The Advocate, and at the request of
>several gay students. We have had several male, "born again" Christians
>complain about it. The pictures and ads are quite explicit. The ads
>describe bondage and other sexual practices that many or most of us find
>beyond our personal preferences. But we have defended it. I have
>personally defended it verbally and in writing, and will continue to do so.
>And, I happen to be married, hetero, father of three, etc.
I applaud your liberalism. I just hope it extends to putting Heterosexual
magazines like Penthouse, Hustler and Playboy on the shelf with the same
access as Time, Newsweek or Life. I am not talking of Playboy or The
Advocate.
>
>Librarians DO for the most part vigorously oppose censorship. Some don't,
>but there may even be a few NRA members in favor of gun control, too.
>Guess that just proves we librarians are human too.
>
I never said librarians do not oppose censorship. They oppose it because they
fear its imposition.
>dan
>
Sanjay Kapur |Internet: Sanjay.Kapur@sunysb.edu
Systems Staff, Computing Services, |Bitnet: SKAPUR@USB
State University of New York, |SPAN/HEPnet: 44132::SKAPUR
Stony Brook, NY 11794-2400 |Phone:(516)632-8029, FAX:(516)632-8046
-------------------
From: SKAPUR@ccmail.sunysb.edu (Sanjay Kapur)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID: <398CF0EE5E401E65@ccmail.sunysb.edu>
Sender: SKAPUR@ccmail.sunysb.edu
Date: 19 Sep 91 22:45:00 GMT
Approved: usenet@eff.org
>One of the reasons that few libraries have Penthouse or Hustler is that
>they are NOT asked for.
I would like to propose an experiment: Put Time or Newsweek behind a counter
for two years. After the end of two years, collect statistics on how many
people still ask for those.
>* Dan Lester Bitnet: alileste@idbsu
Sanjay Kapur |Internet: Sanjay.Kapur@sunysb.edu
Systems Staff, Computing Services, |Bitnet: SKAPUR@USB
State University of New York, |SPAN/HEPnet: 44132::SKAPUR
Stony Brook, NY 11794-2400 |Phone:(516)632-8029, FAX:(516)632-8046
-------------------
From: ALILESTE@idbsu.idbsu.edu (Dan Lester)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID: <199109192359.AA01298@eff.org>
Sender: ALILESTE@idbsu.idbsu.edu
References:
Date: 20 Sep 91 00:43:02 GMT
Approved: usenet@eff.org
On Thu, 19 Sep 1991 18:45 EDT Sanjay Kapur said:
>I would like to propose an experiment: Put Time or Newsweek behind a counter
>for two years. After the end of two years, collect statistics on how many
>people still ask for those.
Oh, my....Sanjay, Sanjay, Sanjay.....
Last place I worked (a state college in Colorado) ALL magazines were on
closed reserve. We didn't like it, but it was imposed by the incredibly
stupid design of the building.....and there was no money to do the
half million dollar job to remodel it to open the stacks. Time and
Newsweek were asked for over ten thousand times a year each. By less than
four thousand students. And Playboy was asked for too, but not nearly as
often. We didn't have Hustler, not because of censorship, but because there
were literally dozens of competing journals that were needed more.
An issue that hasn't been addressed yet is indexing. Hustler is not
indexed, to the best of my knowledge, in any library indexes. That is
determined by the publishers, not the librarians.
If something isn't indexed, it is of much less value to students.
Even if the latest Hustler had a great article on Iran Contra Affair
(and maybe it did, as haven't seen it in several months), if it isn't
indexed, no one will ever find it.
Also, the goal and mission statement of almost any academic library
will say that the major duty is to serve the instructional and research
needs of the students and faculty of the university, or words to that
effect. The computer center goal will be similar, with some extra stuff
about the business needs, if non-academic (administrative) computing is
part of their job.
Recreational needs of students are important, but are definitely
tertiary. Any college spends much more on teaching than it does on
intramurals or musical entertainment, or tv lounges, or any of that
fun stuff that is a part of college life. Not that the "non-academic"
stuff isn't important....it is VERY important. (my daughter is a freshman
at Univ of Idaho now...and the non-academic streaking of her dorm by
60 drunken guys from the next dorm was at least as educational as her
art history class....maybe more so) But I don't think the university
ought to PAY the guys to streak. Or buy their beer to "prepare" for it.
Public libraries have a much more important part of their mission in
the recreational area. But in any town around, the students can go to
the public library, get a card, and read Playboy or Harlequin romances or
westerns or whatever. Why should the university library duplicate those
services that are already there?
Most university libraries would LOVE to be all things to all people,
and cover recreation and gardening and cookbooks and so on. But if I bought
every cookbook or gardening book or skiing book we were asked to get, we
wouldn't buy anything about C++ or Pascal or OS/2 or Macintoshes or....
And those are all things that are similarly priced.....
So, we all have to make choices. Some we make are better than others.
Some are worse. In both our personal and professional lives. And, as you
undoubtedly well know, you can please all the people some of the time,
and some of the people all of the time....and some of them you can never
please at all. I am wondering if there are some of those folks on this
list.
The whole world of libraries is not a conspiracy...against Hustler
or anything else. Its just a bunch of folks trying to do the best they
can.
So, I will make a choice....
dan
************************************************************************
* Dan Lester Bitnet: alileste@idbsu
* Associate University Librarian Internet: alileste@idbsu.idbsu.edu
* Boise State University
* Boise, Idaho 83725 You can be sure these ideas are my
* 208-385-1234 own; no one else would have them.
************************************************************************
-------------------
From: SKAPUR@ccmail.sunysb.edu (Sanjay Kapur)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID: <48F7519B0E401E65@ccmail.sunysb.edu>
Sender: SKAPUR@ccmail.sunysb.edu
Date: 20 Sep 91 00:36:00 GMT
Approved: usenet@eff.org
>From: John Atkinson
>This is a good point. Perhaps we should also quit holding classes on boring
>subjects that no one really likes and just show movies or have stand up
>comics or something that may actually have a high demand.
I think I have made my point. There have been some articles which seem to
claim that just because alt.sex.* are popular newsgroups, everyone should
carry them.
>
>A university library is a reference resource, not a popular reading center.
Just like a Computer?
Sanjay Kapur |Internet: Sanjay.Kapur@sunysb.edu
Systems Staff, Computing Services, |Bitnet: SKAPUR@USB
State University of New York, |SPAN/HEPnet: 44132::SKAPUR
Stony Brook, NY 11794-2400 |Phone:(516)632-8029, FAX:(516)632-8046
-------------------
From: SKAPUR@ccmail.sunysb.edu (Sanjay Kapur)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID: <49F9957B1E401E65@ccmail.sunysb.edu>
Sender: SKAPUR@ccmail.sunysb.edu
Date: 20 Sep 91 00:43:00 GMT
Approved: usenet@eff.org
>From: tk0jut1@mp.cs.niu.edu (jim thomas)
>
>Try to understand what people are saying: 1) FUNDS ARE FINITE,
>2) Priorities are made on the basis of fiscal constraints, 3) Most schools
>are undergoing a period of severe retrenchment rather than expansion.
>
>A given department may continue a periodical read by only a dozen people
>who find it crucial to their field. The number of readers may not be as
>important as the impact of removing a periodical. Quantity of readers
>is not necessarily a wise criterion for selecting subscriptions.
>Arcane newspapers from around the world are generally provided for students
>from those areas to enable them to maintain cultural contact with their
>homeland, not for general readers. When faced with a choice, these papers
>seem a better use of resources than providing native students with
>such readily available 'zines such as Hustler, McCalls, or TV Guide.
>Your "failure to understand" hardly changes the reality that fiscal
>constraints are real, devastating, and lead to some difficult choices.
>
The same arguments can be applied towards computer newsgroup selection.
>>>Librarians really do tend to be fierce opponents of censorship.
>
>>I agree that librarians tend to be fierce opponents of censorship, but the
>>reason they are opposed to it is because they fear it greatly.
>
>Are you saying that there is something less honorable about opposing
>censorship if we fear it? Don't we all? What's your point?
>
No, I was trying to say the opposite. It is far easier to succumb to fear
than oppose it. It is honorable to fight wrong and censorship can be wrong.
I was responding to someone who was saying that they librarians oppose
censorship and seemed to imply that they were not afraid that it might be
forced on them. It is indeed brave of librarians to oppose censorship when so
much of society wants to impose it.
>Jim Thomas
>
Sanjay Kapur |Internet: Sanjay.Kapur@sunysb.edu
Systems Staff, Computing Services, |Bitnet: SKAPUR@USB
State University of New York, |SPAN/HEPnet: 44132::SKAPUR
Stony Brook, NY 11794-2400 |Phone:(516)632-8029, FAX:(516)632-8046
-------------------
From: SKAPUR@ccmail.sunysb.edu (Sanjay Kapur)
Subject: Libraries vs. Computers: Availability of Controversial material.
Message-ID: <50A53D35BE401E65@ccmail.sunysb.edu>
Sender: SKAPUR@ccmail.sunysb.edu
Date: 20 Sep 91 01:31:00 GMT
Approved: usenet@eff.org
>From: Dan Lester
>On Thu, 19 Sep 1991 18:45 EDT Sanjay Kapur said:
>>I would like to propose an experiment: Put Time or Newsweek behind a counter
>>for two years. After the end of two years, collect statistics on how many
>>people still ask for those.
I would like to change my experiment and make it much more drastic:
I would like to propose an experiment: Put Time or Newsweek behind a counter
for two years in all the libraries of the world. After the end of two years,
collect statistics on how many people still ask for them.
>
>Oh, my....Sanjay, Sanjay, Sanjay.....
>Last place I worked (a state college in Colorado) ALL magazines were on
>closed reserve. We didn't like it, but it was imposed by the incredibly
>stupid design of the building.....and there was no money to do the
>half million dollar job to remodel it to open the stacks. Time and
>Newsweek were asked for over ten thousand times a year each. By less than
>four thousand students. And Playboy was asked for too, but not nearly as
>often.
ok.
> We didn't have Hustler, not because of censorship, but because there
>were literally dozens of competing journals that were needed more.
Double HA!!
>
> An issue that hasn't been addressed yet is indexing. Hustler is not
>indexed, to the best of my knowledge, in any library indexes. That is
>determined by the publishers, not the librarians.
> If something isn't indexed, it is of much less value to students.
>Even if the latest Hustler had a great article on Iran Contra Affair
>(and maybe it did, as haven't seen it in several months), if it isn't
>indexed, no one will ever find it.
The above is a valid argument. (Are Time and Newsweek Indexed? Is alt.sex.*
indexed?)
> Also, the goal and mission statement of almost any academic library
>will say that the major duty is to serve the instructional and research
>needs of the students and faculty of the university, or words to that
>effect. The computer center goal will be similar, with some extra stuff
>about the business needs, if non-academic (administrative) computing is
>part of their job.
This was the point I was trying to make all along. If Libraries can use this
argument, why do some people in this forum want to deny this argument to
Systems Administrators.
> Recreational needs of students are important, but are definitely
>tertiary. Any college spends much more on teaching than it does on
>intramurals or musical entertainment, or tv lounges, or any of that
>fun stuff that is a part of college life. Not that the "non-academic"
>stuff isn't important....it is VERY important. (my daughter is a freshman
>at Univ of Idaho now...and the non-academic streaking of her dorm by
>60 drunken guys from the next dorm was at least as educational as her
>art history class....maybe more so) But I don't think the university
>ought to PAY the guys to streak. Or buy their beer to "prepare" for it.
Agreed.
>
> Public libraries have a much more important part of their mission in
>the recreational area. But in any town around, the students can go to
>the public library, get a card, and read Playboy or Harlequin romances or
>westerns or whatever. Why should the university library duplicate those
>services that are already there?
>
Just as University Computing Resources should not. There are duplicate
services available out there. I can give the names of several low cost and
commercial grade Usenet services out there if anyone is interested. The best
part is that local town folk do not have to pay taxes to support these
services as they do with public libraries. (The public library tax portion of
real estate taxes on the modest one familiy house that I live in was
over $600 last year.)
> Most university libraries would LOVE to be all things to all people,
>and cover recreation and gardening and cookbooks and so on. But if I bought
>every cookbook or gardening book or skiing book we were asked to get, we
>wouldn't buy anything about C++ or Pascal or OS/2 or Macintoshes or....
>And those are all things that are similarly priced.....
>
> So, we all have to make choices. Some we make are better than others.
>Some are worse. In both our personal and professional lives. And, as you
>undoubtedly well know, you can please all the people some of the time,
>and some of the people all of the time....and some of them you can never
>please at all. I am wondering if there are some of those folks on this
>list.
>
Agreed. I guess you understand how a Systems Administrator feels.
> The whole world of libraries is not a conspiracy...against Hustler
>or anything else. Its just a bunch of folks trying to do the best they
>can.
>
Just as a Systems Administrators do.
> So, I will make a choice....
Good for you.
>
>* Dan Lester Bitnet: alileste@idbsu
Sanjay Kapur |Internet: Sanjay.Kapur@sunysb.edu
Systems Staff, Computing Services, |Bitnet: SKAPUR@USB
State University of New York, |SPAN/HEPnet: 44132::SKAPUR
Stony Brook, NY 11794-2400 |Phone:(516)632-8029, FAX:(516)632-8046
-------------------
From: zane@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Sameer Parekh)
Subject: Re: Ownership rights
Message-ID: <1991Sep20.011144.11054@ddsw1.MCS.COM>
Date: 20 Sep 91 01:11:44 GMT
References: <1991Sep18.195255.11706@eff.org>
Well, you didn't really state any DIFFERENCES between your situation
and Gene's What is Usenet? I agree with Gene, but the fact is, that
students are PAYING for the system with tuiton, therefore, they are paying
for it and should get what they are paying for.
--
Sameer Parekh -- zane@ddsw1.MCS.COM zane@infopls.chi.il.us
Ask me about the Mail Your Congressperson Through the Net projectb
Apple IIGS Forever! Ask me about the GNOmultitasking project!
From kadie Sun Sep 29 20:46:50 1991
To: cafb-mail
Subject: Computers and Academic Freedom mailing list (batch edition)
Status: R
Computers and Academic Freedom mailing list (batch edition)
Sun Sep 29 20:45:54 EDT 1991
In this issue:
zane@infopls.chi.i : Re: Academic Privacy Question
russotto@eng.umd.e : Re: Academic Privacy Question
russotto@eng.umd.e : Re: Academic Privacy Question
nbc2134@dsacg2.dsa : FWD: (from comp-admin-policy)
morgan@ms.uky.edu : Re: Academic Privacy Question
dsh@csl36h.ncsu.ed : Re: Constitution, rights:
SKAPUR@ccmail.suny : Re: Academic Privacy Question
kadie@eff.org (Car : Re: Academic Privacy Question
kadie@eff.org (Car : Re: Academic Privacy Question
schweige@taurus.cs : Re: Ownership rights
SKAPUR@ccmail.suny : Re: Ownership rights
SKAPUR@ccmail.suny : Re: Academic Privacy Question
schweige@taurus.cs : Re: Ownership rights
FSAAA2@ALASKA.bitn : (none)
robinson@mtsu.edu : Re: Academic Privacy Question
SKAPUR@ccmail.suny : Re: Academic Privacy Question
The addresses for the list are now:
comp-academic-freedom-talk@eff.org - for contributions to the list
or caf-talk@eff.org
listserv@eff.org - for automated additions/deletions
(send email with the line "help" for details.)
caf-talk-request@eff.org - for administrivia
-------------------
From: zane@infopls.chi.il.us (Sameer Parekh)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID:
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 91 18:17:53 CDT
References: <1991Sep17.173611.9508@eff.org>
kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
> know how they pay for it.
>
> >3) What restrictions are imposed on who can access it? Can anyone not
> > associated with the University access it? If not, it rules out underage
> > problems.
>
> Any student at the U. of I can get a "free" student account (paid for,
> in part, by a mandatory computer fee). Anyone with a free account can
> read any newsgroups. Although "underage problems" are not ruled out,
> they seem to be nonexistent.
>
> - Carl
> --
> Carl Kadie -- kadie@eff.org or kadie@cs.uiuc.edu
> I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
Underage problems should NOT apply--who's to say when someone is
mature enough to read "adult" materials? When they turn 18? Why not
when they are 17.5?
All laws about underage are really not applicable--what if for
example, were given higher insurance
rates, becuase, on the average, that ethinic group got into more
accidents...there would be an outroar--then why is it that those under
25 have to pay extra?
An interesting story about not informing youngsters about
sexuality and "protecting" them.
A psychologist's young kid says he wasn't to wear barrets to
school--she doesn't want to tell him not to because "only girls wear
barrets" because that would be sexist--so he goes to school with
barrets.
Classmate at school talks to kid, and classmate saysI
Date: 20 Sep 91 19:04:07 GMT
References: <199109192035.AA11921@eff.org>
In article <199109192035.AA11921@eff.org> ATKINSON@Kentvm.Kent.edu (John Atkinson) writes:
>On Thu, 19 Sep 1991 15:23 EDT Sanjay Kapur said:
>>
>>The selection is done by the department and not the Librarian. Are you
>>implying that it is OK for the person with the funds to "dictate" what to
>>subscribe in a library?
>
>Yes. Why should the Geography department spend money on Penthouse? They
>have an academic program to meet and demands for many publications. Their
>library money should be spent on academic serials.
How about an art department-- for instance, whichever department has the
photography classes. Certainly Playboy would fit in there (as would, of
course, many less popular/more art-oriented magazines containing nude photos)
I'd love to know how "The New Yorker" and "Consumer Reports" (the latter is
ALSO kept behind the counter at UMCP) tie in with the academic mission of the
University-- yet no one seems to be clamoring for the termination of those
subscriptions, nor for the censoring of misc.consumers and rec.arts.(whatever
corresponds to "The New Yorker")
--
Matthew T. Russotto russotto@eng.umd.edu russotto@wam.umd.edu
.sig under construction, like the rest of this campus.
Just say NO to police searches and seizures. Make them use force.
(not responsible for bodily harm resulting from following above advice)
-------------------
From: russotto@eng.umd.edu (Matthew T. Russotto)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID: <1991Sep20.190937.18750@eng.umd.edu>
Date: 20 Sep 91 19:09:37 GMT
References: <38D4D2AF2E401E65@ccmail.sunysb.edu>
In article <38D4D2AF2E401E65@ccmail.sunysb.edu> Sanjay Kapur writes:
>The magazines should be on the shelf, NOT behind the counter under the control
>of the "little old lady with her hair in a bun". Putting them behind a
>counter is severly restricting access to them and, therefore in fact,
>is censorship.
>
>The argument that they will be damaged by readers if left out on the shelves
>is the same type of security argument that is used by us computer types and
>we are called names like "censors" for it.
Are you claiming that somehow newsgroups can be damaged if one doesn't have
to ask the sysadmin to read them?
The analogy doesn't hold.
Funny that there doesn't seem to be any censorship problem in a video rental
place where you nearly always have to ask to get any tape out. They still get
plenty of adult rentals.
--
Matthew T. Russotto russotto@eng.umd.edu russotto@wam.umd.edu
.sig under construction, like the rest of this campus.
Just say NO to police searches and seizures. Make them use force.
(not responsible for bodily harm resulting from following above advice)
-------------------
From: nbc2134@dsacg2.dsac.dla.mil (Robert F Solon)
Subject: FWD: [from comp-admin-policy]
Message-ID: <9109201958.AA05311@dsacg2.dsac.dla.mil>
Sender: nbc2134@dsacg2.dsac.dla.mil
Date: 20 Sep 91 19:58:16 GMT
Approved: usenet@eff.org
Forwarded message:
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 91 15:56:35 -0400
From: nbc2134 (Robert F Solon)
Message-Id: <9109201956.AA05253@dsacg2.dsac.dla.mil>
>From news Fri Sep 20 15:56:33 1991
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell)
Subject: Re: Abstract of "Computers and Academic Freedom News" 1.25
Message-ID: <4266@chalmers.se>
Date: 16 Sep 91 09:35:17 GMT
References: <1991Sep14.223653.21626@eff.org>
Sender: news@chalmers.se
Xref: dsacg3.dsac.dla.mil comp.admin.policy:875
In article <1991Sep14.223653.21626@eff.org> kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
>The next three notes concern the freedom to read Netnews. The first
>note explains why a sys admin may not want to carry a controversial
>newsgroup such as alt.sex.
Is there still a federal law in the US that prohibits "Transporting obscene
materials across state borders."?
How would this impact upon alt.sex.pictures?
>Carl Kadie -- kadie@eff.org or kadie@cs.uiuc.edu
>I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
-bertil-
--
"Det a"r en Svensk grej. Du skulle inte fo"rsta^..."
-------------------
From: morgan@ms.uky.edu (Wes Morgan)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID: <1991Sep20.200729.4424@ms.uky.edu>
Date: 20 Sep 91 20:07:29 GMT
References: <199109192359.AA01298@eff.org>
ALILESTE@idbsu.idbsu.edu (Dan Lester) writes:
>
> Public libraries have a much more important part of their mission in
>the recreational area. But in any town around, the students can go to
>the public library, get a card, and read Playboy or Harlequin romances or
>westerns or whatever. Why should the university library duplicate those
>services that are already there?
>
I just wanted to apply these statements to the "why shouldn't we treat
netnews as a library" discussion. Let me change a few words here:
Public computing facilities (such as BBSs) have a much more important
part of their mission in the recreational area. But in many towns around,
the students can go to the public BBS, get access, and read alt.sex or
alt.drugs or alt.binaries.pictures or whatever. Why should the university
computing facility duplicate those services that are already there?
> Most university libraries would LOVE to be all things to all people,
>and cover recreation and gardening and cookbooks and so on. But if I bought
>every cookbook or gardening book or skiing book we were asked to get, we
>wouldn't buy anything about C++ or Pascal or OS/2 or Macintoshes or....
>And those are all things that are similarly priced.....
Most university netnews providers would LOVE to be all things to all people,
and cover recreation and gardening and cookbooks and so on. But if I took
every cooking or gardening or skiing newsgroup we were asked to get, we
wouldn't take anything about c++ or Pascal or OS/2 or Macintoshes or....
And those are all things that place a similar load on news....
> So, we all have to make choices. Some we make are better than others.
>Some are worse. In both our personal and professional lives. And, as you
>undoubtedly well know, you can please all the people some of the time,
>and some of the people all of the time....and some of them you can never
>please at all. I am wondering if there are some of those folks on this
>list.
Amen!
> The whole world of libraries is not a conspiracy...against Hustler
>or anything else. Its just a bunch of folks trying to do the best they
>can.
Another slight change:
The whole world of Usenet sites is not a conspiracy...against alt.sex
or anything else. It's just a bunch of newsadmins trying to do the best
they can.
> So, I will make a choice....
As will I, as a newsadmin-to-be.
>
>dan
Thanks, Dan, for an well-written rationale. I think that it applies
equally well to my situation as a newsadmin-to-be.
Wes
--
morgan@ms.uky.edu |Wes Morgan, not speaking for| ....!ukma!ukecc!morgan
morgan@engr.uky.edu |the University of Kentucky's| morgan%engr.uky.edu@UKCC
morgan@ie.pa.uky.edu |Engineering Computing Center| morgan@wuarchive.wustl.edu
-------------------
Xref: eff talk.politics.misc:18602 alt.individualism:2806 alt.censorship:1587 alt.conspiracy:3727 misc.legal:8504 comp.org.eff.talk:4030 alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk:995
From: dsh@csl36h.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger)
Subject: Re: Constitution, rights: newsgroup?
Message-ID: <1991Sep20.184713.18364@ncsu.edu>
Date: 20 Sep 91 18:47:13 GMT
Sender: news@ncsu.edu (USENET News System)
Followup-To: talk.politics.misc
> It sounds (to me) like what you're going for is another alt.individualism.
It sounds to me like it'll be yet another newsgroup designed for libertarians.
I think we have enough of them already -- just look at the newsgroup line.
-------------------
From: SKAPUR@ccmail.sunysb.edu (Sanjay Kapur)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID:
Sender: SKAPUR@ccmail.sunysb.edu
Date: 20 Sep 91 21:16:00 GMT
Approved: usenet@eff.org
>Funny that there doesn't seem to be any censorship problem in a video rental
>place where you nearly always have to ask to get any tape out. They still get
>plenty of adult rentals.
If you are willing to pay for the service, you can get a Usenet service also
which is non-university funded.
>--
>Matthew T. Russotto russotto@eng.umd.edu russotto@wam.umd.edu
> .sig under construction, like the rest of this campus.
>Just say NO to police searches and seizures. Make them use force.
>(not responsible for bodily harm resulting from following above advice)
Sanjay Kapur |Internet: Sanjay.Kapur@sunysb.edu
Systems Staff, Computing Services, |Bitnet: SKAPUR@USB
State University of New York, |SPAN/HEPnet: 44132::SKAPUR
Stony Brook, NY 11794-2400 |Phone:(516)632-8029, FAX:(516)632-8046
-------------------
From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID: <1991Sep20.214242.29357@eff.org>
References: <199109192359.AA01298@eff.org> <1991Sep20.200729.4424@ms.uky.edu>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1991 21:42:42 GMT
I think most of are in violent agreement on these points:
Principle: Cost is not the only valid selection criterion for
newsgroups.
Principle: "Materials should not be proscribed or removed because of
partisan or doctrinal disapproval" [Article 2, Library Bill of
Rights]. For example, alt.sex should not be proscribed or removed
because complaints (or fear of complaints) that sex is a bad topic.
- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@eff.org or kadie@cs.uiuc.edu
I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
-------------------
From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID: <1991Sep20.215427.29919@eff.org>
References:
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1991 21:54:27 GMT
SKAPUR@ccmail.sunysb.edu (Sanjay Kapur) writes:
[...]
>If you are willing to pay for the service, you can get a Usenet service also
>which is non-university funded.
[...]
Consider a hypothetical.
Suppose that
* neither alt.sex nor alt.boomerang a central to the mission of your machine.
* that the cost to alt.sex is slightly lower
* that interest in alt.sex is slightly higher
* that both are available on another machine that your users can get
accounts on
Would it be OK (morally) to select alt.boomerang and not alt.sex
because alt.sex is available on another machine?
I don't think so.
- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@eff.org or kadie@cs.uiuc.edu
I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
-------------------
From: schweige@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil (Jeffrey M. Schweiger)
Subject: Re: Ownership rights
Message-ID: <2895@aldebaran.cs.nps.navy.mil>
Date: 20 Sep 91 23:05:58 GMT
References: <1991Sep18.195255.11706@eff.org> <1991Sep20.011144.11054@ddsw1.MCS.COM>
In article <1991Sep20.011144.11054@ddsw1.MCS.COM> zane@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Sameer Parekh) writes:
>
> Well, you didn't really state any DIFFERENCES between your situation
>and Gene's What is Usenet? I agree with Gene, but the fact is, that
>students are PAYING for the system with tuiton, therefore, they are paying
>for it and should get what they are paying for.
>--
>Sameer Parekh -- zane@ddsw1.MCS.COM zane@infopls.chi.il.us
>Ask me about the Mail Your Congressperson Through the Net projectb
>Apple IIGS Forever! Ask me about the GNOmultitasking project!
Sorry, but I disagree with this interpretation. The payment of tuition alone
does not guarantee a student unlimited Usenet access. Unless part of the
appropriate academic program, it may not even guarantee access to any campus
computer. Tuition is a payment for the education, and rarely, if ever, even
covers the entire costs of the formal portion of that education.
Note that I am not arguing that Usenet should be restricted, etc., just that
the paying of tuition does not imply a "right" to unlimited Usenet access.
Jeff Schweiger
--
*******************************************************************************
Jeff Schweiger Standard Disclaimer CompuServe: 74236,1645
Internet (Milnet): schweige@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil
*******************************************************************************
-------------------
From: SKAPUR@ccmail.sunysb.edu (Sanjay Kapur)
Subject: Re: Ownership rights
Message-ID: <17840DD99E401E65@ccmail.sunysb.edu>
Sender: SKAPUR@ccmail.sunysb.edu
Date: 21 Sep 91 01:14:00 GMT
Approved: usenet@eff.org
>From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
>Paying tuition does give students *some* rights; it gives them
>contractual rights. If the student handbook says that students will
>not be censored and that students can have a free computer account,
>then students have a right to be free of censorship and to have a free
>computer account.
What if the same handbook says (or implies) that the free account also comes
with a set of (maybe unwritten) rules? What if the free account is limited by
custom or otherwise for instructional use only?
Sanjay Kapur |Internet: Sanjay.Kapur@sunysb.edu
Systems Staff, Computing Services, |Bitnet: SKAPUR@USB
State University of New York, |SPAN/HEPnet: 44132::SKAPUR
Stony Brook, NY 11794-2400 |Phone:(516)632-8029, FAX:(516)632-8046
-------------------
From: SKAPUR@ccmail.sunysb.edu (Sanjay Kapur)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID: <18655FE32E401E65@ccmail.sunysb.edu>
Sender: SKAPUR@ccmail.sunysb.edu
Date: 21 Sep 91 01:20:00 GMT
Approved: usenet@eff.org
>From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
>Consider a hypothetical.
>
>Suppose that
>
>* neither alt.sex nor alt.boomerang a central to the mission of your machine.
>* that the cost to alt.sex is slightly lower
>* that interest in alt.sex is slightly higher
>* that both are available on another machine that your users can get
> accounts on
>
>Would it be OK (morally) to select alt.boomerang and not alt.sex
>because alt.sex is available on another machine?
What if alt.boomerang is NOT available on the other machine? At least alt.sex
is available on the other machine so someone could read it.
>
>I don't think so.
>
What do you think then?
Sanjay Kapur |Internet: Sanjay.Kapur@sunysb.edu
Systems Staff, Computing Services, |Bitnet: SKAPUR@USB
State University of New York, |SPAN/HEPnet: 44132::SKAPUR
Stony Brook, NY 11794-2400 |Phone:(516)632-8029, FAX:(516)632-8046
-------------------
From: schweige@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil (Jeffrey M. Schweiger)
Subject: Re: Ownership rights
Message-ID: <2897@aldebaran.cs.nps.navy.mil>
Date: 21 Sep 91 01:44:23 GMT
References: <1991Sep18.195255.11706@eff.org> <1991Sep20.011144.11054@ddsw1.MCS.COM> <2895@aldebaran.cs.nps.navy.mil> <1991Sep21.003722.2592@eff.org>
In article <1991Sep21.003722.2592@eff.org> kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
>schweige@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil (I) wrote:
>
>[...]
>>Note that I am not arguing that Usenet should be restricted, etc., just that
>>the paying of tuition does not imply a "right" to unlimited Usenet access.
>[...]
>
>I agree with this this, but would add something.
>
>Paying tuition does give students *some* rights; it gives them
>contractual rights. If the student handbook says that students will
>not be censored and that students can have a free computer account,
>then students have a right to be free of censorship and to have a free
>computer account.
And I agree with this.
My problem with some of the discussion leading up to this point was just that
the 'ground rules' hadn't been made clear (at least in my mind). While we
could argue the definition of 'censorship', in some ways that would be
irrelevant. What we seem to have now established is that the rights that
students have as a result of paying tuition are contractual in nature. Having
reached this point, the basic discussion now is the determination of what we
feel those contractual rights should be. Invoking the Constitution and
"academic freedom" is appropriate in influencing this discussion, and possibly
influencing the institution of those rights into the 'contracts'. I have
gotten the impression that some people have been arguing what rights actually
exist, while others have been arguing what those rights _should_ be.
>- Carl
>--
>Carl Kadie -- kadie@eff.org or kadie@cs.uiuc.edu
>I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
Jeff Schweiger
--
*******************************************************************************
Jeff Schweiger Standard Disclaimer CompuServe: 74236,1645
Internet (Milnet): schweige@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil
*******************************************************************************
-------------------
From: FSAAA2@ALASKA.bitnet (ANTON A ANTOKHIN)
Subject: (none)
Message-ID: <199109210303.AA05651@eff.org>
Sender: FSAAA2%ALASKA.BITNET@CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu
Date: 20 Sep 91 10:00:27 GMT
Approved: usenet@eff.org
please romove me from this conference; the listserv won't do it for some
reason. thanks. fsaaa2@alaska
-------------------
From: robinson@mtsu.edu (David Robinson)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID:
Sender: knuth!robinson@uunet.UU.NET
References: <398CF0EE5E401E65@ccmail.sunysb.edu>
Date: 20 Sep 91 18:37:30 GMT
Approved: usenet@eff.org
>
>>One of the reasons that few libraries have Penthouse or Hustler is that
>>they are NOT asked for.
>
>I would like to propose an experiment: Put Time or Newsweek behind a counter
>for two years. After the end of two years, collect statistics on how many
>people still ask for those.
>
>
>>* Dan Lester Bitnet: alileste@idbsu
>
> Sanjay Kapur |Internet: Sanjay.Kapur@sunysb.edu
As a matter of fact, here at MTSU, we *DO* keep Time magazine behind the
counter for the primary reason that it tends to a) go walkies, or b) get
chopped by enterprising students with razor blades but no money for the
photocopier. This is also one of the reasons that we have chosen not to
subscribe to Playboy, Penthouse, or Hustler. When I was at the
University of Alabama, they subscribed to Playboy, they kept it behind
the desk, and it *still* was so quickly mutilated beyond recognition that
they had to have 2 subscriptions to make it through the month. Even the
*MICROFILM* got chopped! Apparently, someone was willing to go make
35mm slides out of the 'good parts'. Some people lead very small lives.
Another reason for not subscribing to those particular titles is that
they are not indexed in the traditional sources. I'm thinking
specifically of _Reader's_Guide_to_Periodical_Literature_ which, for
general interest type magazines, is still considered by many librarians
as *the* indexing source. (I'm sure someone will quickly point out a
very good, very popular index that *does* index Playboy ... like IAC's
_Magazine_Index_ for instance, but I don't know a single source that
indexes Hustler ... )
I realize that this sounds like a bunch of pretty lame excuses. However,
combined with the budgetary arguments that have been presented by other
postings, you can begin to see a picture of the complexities that are
involved in decisions of this kind. Unfortunately, there is more to it
than simply a matter of intellectual freedom.
David Robinson robinson@mtsu.edu
Automation Librarian
Middle Tennessee State University
Murfreesboro, Tennessee 37132
-------------------
From: SKAPUR@ccmail.sunysb.edu (Sanjay Kapur)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID: <87D627808E403959@ccmail.sunysb.edu>
Sender: SKAPUR@ccmail.sunysb.edu
Date: 21 Sep 91 14:38:00 GMT
Approved: usenet@eff.org
>From: robinson@mtsu.edu (David Robinson)
>
>I realize that this sounds like a bunch of pretty lame excuses. However,
>combined with the budgetary arguments that have been presented by other
>postings, you can begin to see a picture of the complexities that are
>involved in decisions of this kind. Unfortunately, there is more to it
>than simply a matter of intellectual freedom.
>
I hope people realize that newsgroup selection can be equally complex.
Unfortunately there is more to newsgroup selection that simply a matter of
intellectual freedom.
>
>David Robinson robinson@mtsu.edu
>Automation Librarian
>Middle Tennessee State University
>Murfreesboro, Tennessee 37132
>
Sanjay Kapur |Internet: Sanjay.Kapur@sunysb.edu
Systems Staff, Computing Services, |Bitnet: SKAPUR@USB
State University of New York, |SPAN/HEPnet: 44132::SKAPUR
Stony Brook, NY 11794-2400 |Phone:(516)632-8029, FAX:(516)632-8046
From kadie Sun Sep 29 20:47:46 1991
To: cafb-mail
Subject: Computers and Academic Freedom mailing list (batch edition)
Status: R
Computers and Academic Freedom mailing list (batch edition)
Sun Sep 29 20:47:39 EDT 1991
In this issue:
kadie@eff.org (Car : ALA "Workbook for Selection Policy Writing"
The addresses for the list are now:
comp-academic-freedom-talk@eff.org - for contributions to the list
or caf-talk@eff.org
listserv@eff.org - for automated additions/deletions
(send email with the line "help" for details.)
caf-talk-request@eff.org - for administrivia
-------------------
From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: ALA "Workbook for Selection Policy Writing"
Message-ID: <1991Sep21.193707.22331@eff.org>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1991 19:37:07 GMT
I've scanned in ihe American Library Association's "Workbook on
Selection Policy Writing". Although aimed at textbook and library book
selection in grade and high schools, it also seems applicable to
newsgroup selection. It includes information about how create a
selection policy and how to handle complaints. It also includes a
sample selection policy.
I'm posting a copy here. It will also be available in the
CAF Library Policy archive.
[The archive is accessible via anonymous ftp to ftp.eff.org
(192.88.144.3). It is in directory "pub/academic/library". File README
is a detailed description of the items in this directory. The archive
is also accessible via email. For information on email access send
email to archive-server@eff.org. In the body of your note include the
lines "help" and "index".]
If you find any scano's please, report them to me.
- Carl
-------------------------------
WORKBOOK FOR SELECTION POLICY WRITING*
Every school system should have a comprehensive policy on
the selection of instructional materials. It should relate to
and include all materials, e.g., textbooks, library books,
periodicals, films, video cassettes, records, cassettes, and CDs.
The reason should be obvious: haphazard patterns of acquisition
will result in waste because some - perhaps many - materials will
overlap in content, or will be unrelated to changing patterns of
instruction.
A comprehensive policy on the selection of instructional
materials will also enable school professionals to rationally
explain the school program to the community. And, most important
in a crisis, when there are complaints about social studies
texts, human development materials in the media center, or
fiction in the English class, the use of the "objectionable" item
can more easily be explained.
A good policy on the selection of instructional materials
will include basic sections on objectives, responsibility,
criteria, procedures for selection, reconsideration of materials,
policies on controversial materials and other special areas of
concern to your particular system.
-------------
*For further assistance or encouragement, please contact the
Office for Intellectual Freedom of the American Library
Association, 50 East Huron Street, Chicago, Illinois 60611, (312)
280-4223.
-------------
Basic Components of a Selection Policy
OBJECTIVES. In developing your policy, you should state in
succinct terms what it is your system is trying to accomplish in
its educational program, and, in somewhat more detail, the
objectives of selection.
Your overarching goal may be very broad. For example, for
the School District:
o Instructional materials are selected by the school
district to implement, enrich, and support the
educational program for the student. Materials must
serve both the breadth of the curriculum and the needs
and interests of individual students. It is the
obligation of the district to provide for a wide range
of abilities and to respect the diversity of many
differing points of view. To this end, principles must
be placed above personal opinion and reason above
prejudice in the selection of materials of the highest
quality and appropriateness.
For the Library Media Center:
o The main objective of our selection procedure is to
provide the students with a wide range of educational
materials on all levels of difficulty and in a variety
of formats, with diversity of appeal, allowing for the
presentation of many different points of view.
o The objective of the media center is to make available
to faculty and students a collection of materials that
will enrich and support the curriculum and meet the
needs of the students and faculty served.
More specific goals should be established by professionals
for each learning level.
The objectives for selection should reflect the specific
goals of the instructional program. In the case of textbooks,
the goals may vary from subject to subject. For example, in the
sciences, one principal goal might be accuracy in terms of the
latest scientific knowledge, and in history, balance in the
presentation of conflicting points of view. In the case of
materials in the library media center, the goals may include
meeting individual learning needs abilities and learning styles,
providing background materials to supplement classroom
instruction, providing a broad range of materials on
controversial issues to help students develop critical analytical
skills, etc.
RESPONSIBILITY FOR SELECTION. Your policy should name by
professional position those persons who will have responsibility
for selection of textbooks and other instructional materials.
In most states in the U.S., the locally elected or appointed
school board, by law, has broad powers and responsibilities in
the selection of instructional materials. This authority should
be delegated by policy to appropriate professionals for
day-to-day exercise.
While selection of materials involves many people, including
administrators, supervisors, teachers, library media specialists,
students, and even community residents, the responsibility for
coordinating and recommending the selection and purchase of
library media materials should rest with the certificated library
media personnel. Responsibility for coordinating the selection
and purchase of textbooks and other classroom materials may rest
with appropriate department chairpersons or with textbook or
media evaluation committees.
Write into your policy under Responsibility for Selection
(or similar title) exactly who is responsible for selection of
materials, e.g.: department heads, curriculum specialists,
directors of curriculum and instruction, librarians or media
specialists.
Sample statement of responsibility for the School District:
o The elected Board of Education shall delegate to the
Superintendent of Schools the authority and
responsibility for selection of all print and non-print
materials. Responsibilities for actual selection shall
rest with appropriate professionally trained personnel
who shall discharge this obligation consistent with the
Board's adopted selection criteria and procedures.
election procedures shall involve representatives of
the professional staff directly affected by the
selections, and persons qualified by preparation to aid
in wise selection.
Sample statement of responsibility for the Library Media
Center.
o The library media specialist will work cooperatively
with staff members to interpret and guide the
application of the policy in making day-to-day
selections; however, final responsibility for selection
of materials for the library media center lies with the
media specialists.
CRITERIA. In terms of the subject matter covered, your policy
will include criteria, and the application of criteria, relevant
to your objectives, excellence (artistic, literary, etc.),
appropriateness to level of user, superiority in treatment of
controversial issues, and ability to stimulate further
intellectual and social development. Consider authenticity,
appropriateness, interest, content, and circumstances of use.
You will probably want to include technical criteria in your
policy, for example, clarity of sound in audio materials and
cinematography in videocassette.
Specific criteria should be spelled out to guide all
professionals involved in selection in deciding on specific
items:
o Staff members involved in selection of resource
materials shall use the following criteria as a guide:
a. educational significance
b. contribution the subject matter makes to the
curriculum and to the interests of the students
c. favorable reviews found in standard selection
sources
d. favorable recommendations based on preview and
examination of materials by professional personnel
e. reputation and significance of the author,
producer and publisher
f. validity, currency, and appropriates of material
g. contribution the material makes to breath of
representative viewpoints on controversial issues
h. high degree of potential user appeal
[no point i - cmk]
j. high artistic quality and/or literary style
k. quality and variety of format
l. value commensurate with cost and/or need
m. timeliness or permanence
n. integrity
The following recommended lists shall be consulted in
the selection of materials, but selection is not
limited to their listings.
a. Bibliographies latest editions available,
including supplements)
American Historical Fiction
Basic Book Collection for Elementary Grades
The Best in Children's Books
Children and Books
Children's Catalog
Elementary School Library Collection
European Historical Fiction and Biography
Guide to Sources in Educational Media
Junior High School Catalog
Reference Books for School Libraries
Subject Guide to Children's Books in Print
Subject Index to Books for Intermediate Grades
Subject Index to Nooks for Primary Grades
Westinghouse Learning Directory
and as a part of the vertical file index, other
special bibliographies, many of which have been
prepared by educational organizations for
particular subject matter areas.
b. Current reviewing media:
AASA Science Books and Films
American Film & Video Association Evaluations
Booklist
Bulletin of the Center for Children's Books
Horn Book
Kirkus Reviews
Library Journal
School Library Journal
Wilson Library Bulletin
o The following criteria will be used as they apply.
1. Learning resources shall support and be consistent
with the general educational goals of the state
and district and the aims and objectives of
individual schools and specific courses.
2. Learning resources shall meet high standards of
quality in factual content and presentation.
3. Learning resources shall be appropriate for the
subject area and for the age, emotional
development, ability level, learning styles and
social development of the students for whom the
materials are selected.
4. Physical format and appearance of learning
resources shall be suitable for their intended
use.
5. Learning resources shall be designed to help
students gain an awareness of our pluralistic
society.
6. Learning resources shall be designed to motivate
students and staff to examine their own duties,
responsibilities, rights and privileges and
participating citizen in our society.
7. Learning resources shall be selected for their
strengths rather than rejected for their
weaknesses.
The selection of learning resources on controversial
issues will be directed towards maintaining a diverse
collection representing various views.
Learning resources shall clarify historical and
contemporary forces by presenting and analyzing
intergroup tension and conflict objectively, placing
emphasis on recognizing and understanding social and
economic problems.
o The following kinds of material should be selected for
the media center:
1. Materials which are an integral part of the
instructional program.
2. Materials which are appropriate for the reading
level and understanding of students in the school.
3. Materials which reflect the interests and needs of
the students and faculty served by the media
center.
4. Materials which merit inclusion in the collection
because of their literary and/or artistic value.
5. Material which present information with the
greatest degree of accuracy and clarity possible.
6. Materials which represent a fair and unbiased
presentation of information. In controversial
areas, the media specialist in cooperation with
the faculty should select materials representing
as many shades of opinion as possible in order
that students may have available varying
viewpoints.
PROCEDURES. Your procedures should describe all steps from
initial screening to final selection. They should also include
provisions for coordination among departments and professionals
working at different learning levels, etc.; for handling
recommendations from other faculty and students; and for the
review of existing materials (for possible replacement, etc.).
Include at least a partial list of selection aids such as
lists of reviewing sources (if not included in preceding
section). You may also want to list sources which should not be
used.
This will be a large part of your selection policy. It is
important to list the type of materials you collect, why you need
them, and how you obtain them. Include here your policies on
reevaluation (weeding), replacing and repairing materials, etc.
Sample procedure statements:
o 1. In selecting learning resources, professional personnel
will evaluate available resources and curriculum needs
and will consult reputable, professionally prepared
aids to selection and other appropriate sources. The
actual resource will be examined whenever possible.
2. Recommendations for purchase involve administrators,
teachers, students, district personnel and community
persons, as appropriate.
3. Gift materials shall be judged by the criteria outlined
and shall be accepted or rejected by those criteria.
4. Selection is an ongoing process which should include
the removal of materials no longer appropriate and the
replacement of lost and worn materials still of
educational value.
* * * * * * *
o 1. Requests, suggestions and reactions for the purchase of
instructional materials shall be gathered from staff to
the greatest extent possible and students when
appropriate.
2. Reviews of proposed acquisitions will be sought in the
literature of reputable professional organizations and
other reviewing sources recognized for their
objectivity and wide experience.
3. Materials will be examined by professional staff to the
extent necessary or practicable to apply criteria.
Preview copies are available for on-site examination by
the public upon written request to the District
Director of Instruction.
4. Textbooks will be selected after examination by a
representative committee of teachers, principals,
curriculum specialists, directors of instruction, and
others who have professional expertise in objective
evaluation of materials.
5. Materials for the District Film and Video Center will
be selected by preview committees, curriculum
specialists, and through use of professional review
sources.
6. Building media center materials selection will be
coordinated by the building media specialists, or the
principal, where there is no professional staff,
involving teachers and curriculum specialists.
7. Area Advisory Councils may be used to review materials
recommended by professional selection committees.
* * * * * * *
o Materials for media centers are selected by the
professional media staff with due regard to suggestions
from the faculty, parents, and students. Final
selection is made by the media specialists of the
school in which the center is housed. Professionally
recognized reviewing periodicals, standard catalogs,
and other selection aids are used by the media
specialists and the faculty to guide them in their
selection.
SPECIAL AREAS. Some miscellaneous items to consider in your
policy are gifts, sponsored materials, expensive materials,
ephemeral materials, jobbers and salespersons, locked case,
special requests, etc., free and inexpensive materials,
professional materials, and procedure for handling lost
materials. Do you charge fines, maintain special collections not
available to all patrons (e.g., a collection of materials for
teachers only), handle special requests? These "special
concerns" can be outlined in this section of your policy. Make
sure to include your procedures for integrating gifts and
sponsored materials. Usually, it is stated that criteria for
inclusion of gifts and sponsored materials are the same as for
purchased materials.
POLICIES ON CONTROVERSIAL MATERIALS. Here, or in another place
in your policy you should include a statement on intellectual
freedom and why it is important to maintain. You may wish to
include the test of the First Amendment to the United States
Constitution - "Congress shall make no law respecting an
establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise
thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or
the right of the people peaceable to assemble, and to petition
the Government for a redress of grievances," and the LIBRARY BILL
OF RIGHTS. (A copy is included at the end of this booklet.)
Sample Statement on intellectual freedom:
o The school board subscribes in principle to the
statements of policy on library philosophy as expressed
in the American Library Association LIBRARY BILL OF
RIGHTS, a copy of which is appended to and made a part
of this policy.
RECONSIDERATION. Occasional objections to instructional
materials will be made despite the quality of the selection
process; therefore, the procedure for handling reconsideration of
challenged materials in response to questions concerning their
appropriateness should be stated. This procedure should
establish the framework for registering a complaint that provides
for a hearing with appropriate action while defending the
principles of freedom of information, the student's right to
access of materials, and the professional responsibility and
integrity of the school faculty. The principles of intellectual
freedom are inherent in the First Amendment of the Constitution
of the United States and are expressed in the LIBRARY BILL OF
RIGHTS adopted by the Council of the American Library
Association. In the event instructional materials are
questioned, the principles of intellectual freedom should e
defended rather than the materials.
List here the specific steps that will be taken when you are
asked to reconsider materials in your collection. These steps
should include:
--asking the complainant to fill out a written complaint
form. (See attached form as an example.)
--assigning a review committee to examine the material in
question.
--requesting that the committee report their findings to the
school board.
The procedure for handling complaints should describe every
step from the initial response to the complaint through the
highest appeal.
o Procedure for handling complaints
No duly selected materials whose appropriateness is
challenged shall be removed from the school except upon
the recommendation of a review committee (as provided
for below) with the concurrence of the Superintendent
or, upon the Superintendent's recommendation, the
concurrence of the Board of Education, or upon formal
action of the Board of Education when a recommendation
of a review committee is appealed to it.
Procedures to be observed.
a. All complaints to staff members shall be reported
to the building principal involved, whether
received by telephone, letter, or in personal
conversation.
b. The principal shall contact the complainant to
discuss the complaint and attempt to resolve it
informally by explaining the philosophy and goals
of the school district and/or the library media
center.
c. If the complaint is not resolved informally, the
complainant shall be supplied with a packet of
materials consisting of the District's
instructional goals and objectives, materials
selection policy statement, and the procedure for
handling objections. This packet will also
include a standard printed form which shall be
completed and returned before consideration will
be given to the complaint.
d. If the formal request for reconsideration has not
been received by the principal within two weeks,
it shall be considered closed. If the request is
returned, the reasons for selection of the
specific work shall be reestablished by the
appropriate staff.
e. In accordance with statement of philosophy, no
questioned materials shall be removed from the
school pending a final decision. Pending the
outcome of the request for reconsideration,
however, access to questioned materials can be
denied to the child (or children) of the parents
making the complaint, if they so desire.
f. Upon receipt of a completed objection form, the
principal in the building involved will call
together a committee of five to consider the
complaint. This committee shall consist of the
curriculum director and from the school involved:
the principal, the library media center director,
a teacher, and a PTA representative.
g. The committee shall meet to discuss the material,
following the guidelines set forth in Instructions
to Evaluation Committee and shall prepare a report
on the material containing their recommendations
on disposition of the matter.
h. The principal shall notify complainant of the
decision and send a formal report and
recommendation to the Superintendent. In
answering the complainant, the principal shall
explain the book selection system, give the
guidelines used for selection, and cite
authorities used in reaching decisions. If the
committee decides to keep the work that caused the
complaint, the complainant shall be given an
explanation. If the complaint is valid, the
principal will acknowledge it and make recommended
changes .
i. If the complainant is still not satisfied, he/she
may ask the Superintendent to present an appeal to
the Board of Education which shall make a final
determination of the issue. The Board of
Education may seek assistance from outside
organizations such as the American Library
Association, the Association for Supervision and
Curriculum Development, etc., in making its
determination.
SAMPLE LETTER TO COMPLAINT
Dear _______________ :
We appreciate your concern over the use of _________________
in our school district. The district has developed procedures
for selecting materials, but realize that not everyone will
agree with every selection made.
To help you understand the selection process, we are sending
copies of the district's:
1. Instructional goals and objectives
2. Materials Selection Policy statement
3. Procedure for Handling Objections
If you are still concerned after you review this material,
please complete the Request for Reconsideration of Material form
and return it to me. You may be assured of prompt attention to
your request. If I have not heard from you within two weeks, we
will assume you no longer wish to file a formal complaint.
Sincerely,
Principal
INSTRUCTIONS TO EVALUATING COMMITTEE
Bear in mind the principles of the freedom to learn and to
read and base your decision on these broad principles rather than
on defense of individual materials. Freedom of inquiry is vital
to education in a democracy.
Study thoroughly all materials referred to you and read
available reviews. The general acceptance of the materials
should be checked by consulting standard evaluation aids and
local holdings in other schools.
Passages or parts should not be pulled out of context. The
values and faults should be weighed against each other and the
opinions based on the materials as a whole.
Your report, presenting both majority and minority opinions,
will be presented by the principal to the complainant at the
conclusion of our discussion of the questioned material.
STATEMENT OF CONCERN ABOUT
LIBRARY/MEDIA CENTER RESOURCES
This is where you identify who in your own structure, has
authorized use of this form - Director, Board of Trustees, Board
of Education, etc. and to whom to return form.
Name ___________________________________________ Date ____________
Address ________________________________________
City ___________________ State ______ Zip ______ Phone # _________
1. Resources on which you are commenting:
___ Book ___ Audiovisual Resource
___ Magazine ___ Content of Library Program
___ Newspaper ___ Other
Title _______________________________________________________
Author/Producer ______________________________________________
2. What brought this title to your attention?
3. Please comment on the resource as a whole as well as being
specific on those matters which concern you. (Use other
side if needed.)
Comment:
Optional:
4. What resource(s) do you suggest to provide additional
information on this topic?
Revised by the ALA Intellectual Freedom Committee, January 12,
1983
SELECTION POLICY
SCHOOL DISTRICT #1
PART 1
SELECTION OF LEARNING RESOURCES:
I. STATEMENT OF POLICY
The policy of the Board of Trustees of School District #1 is to
provide a wide range of learning resources at varying levels of
difficulty, with diversity of appeal and the presentation of
different points of view to meet the needs of students and
teachers.
II. OBJECTIVES OF SELECTION
A. For the purposes of this statement of policy, the term
"learning resources" will refer to any person(s) or any
material (whether acquired or locally produced) with
instructional content or function that is used for
formal or informal teaching/learning purposes.
Learning resources include textbooks, other books,
supplementary reading and informational materials,
charts, community resource people, agencies and
organizations, dioramas, filmstrips, flash cards,
games, globes, kits machine readable data files, maps,
microfilms, models, motion pictures, periodicals,
pictures, realia, slides, sound recordings,
transparencies and videocassettes.
B. The primary objective of learning resources is to
support, enrich and help to implement the educational
program of the school through the interaction of
professional personnel and other members of the school
community. It is the duty of professional staff to
provide students with a wide range of materials at
varying levels of difficulty, with diversity of appeal
and the presentation of different points of view.
C. To this end, the Board of Trustees of School District
#1 affirms that it is the responsibility of its
professional staff:
--To provide materials that will enrich and support the
curriculum, taking into consideration the varied
interests, abilities, learning styles and maturity
levels of the students served;
--To provide materials that will stimulate growth in
factual knowledge, literary appreciation, aesthetic
values, and societal standards;
--To provide materials on various sides of
controversial issues so that young citizens may have
an opportunity to develop under guidance the practice
of critical analysis and to make informed judgments
in their daily lives;
--To provide materials representative of the many
religious, ethnic, and cultural groups and their
contributions to our national heritage and the world
community;
--To place principle above personal opinion and reason
above prejudice in the selection of materials of the
highest quality in order to assure comprehensive
collection appropriate to the school community.
III. RESPONSIBILITY FOR SELECTION OF LEANING RESOURCES
A. The Board of Trustees delegates the responsibility for
the selection of learning resources to the professional
staff employed by the school system, and declares that
selections made shall be held to have been made by the
Board of Trustees of School District #1.
B. While selection of learning resources involves many
people (administrators, teachers, students, community
persons, resource center personnel) the responsibility
for (coordinating the selection of school learning
resources and making the recommendation for purchase
rests with the principal and professional personnel.
IV. CRITERIA FOR SELECTION OF LEARNING RESOURCES
A. The following criteria will be used as they apply
1. Learning resources shall support and be consistent
with the general educational goals of the state
and the district and the aims and objectives of
individual schools and specific courses.
2. Learning resources shall be chosen to enrich and
support the curriculum and the personal needs of
users.
3. Learning resources shall meet high standards of
quality in:
--presentation
--physical format
--educational significance
--readability
--authenticity
--artistic quality and/or literary style
--factual content
--technical quality
4. Learning resources shall be appropriate for the
subject area and for the age, emotional
development, ability level, learning styles and
social development of the students for whom the
materials are selected.
5. Learning resources shall be designed to provide a
background of information which will motivate
students and staff to examine their own attitudes
and behavior, to comprehend their duties,
responsibilities, rights and privileges as
participating citizens in our society, and to make
intelligent judgments in their daily lives.
6. Learning resources shall provide information on
opposing sides of controversial issues so that
users may develop under guidance the practice of
critical analysis.
B. The selection of learning resources on controversial
issues will be directed towards maintaining a balanced
collection representing various views.
Learning resources shall clarify historical and
contemporary forces by presenting and analyzing
intergroup tension and conflict objectively, placing
emphasis on recognizing and understanding social and
economic problems.
V. PROCEDURES FOR SELECTION OF LEARNING RESOURCES
A. In selecting learning resources, professional personnel
will evaluate available resources and curriculum needs
and will consult reputable, professionally prepared
aids to selection and other appropriate sources. Among
sources to be consulted are:
1. Bibliographies (latest edition available,
including supplements):
American Film & Video Association Evaluations
Basic Book Collection for Elementary Grades
Basic Book Collection for Junior High Schools
The Best in Children's Books
Booklist
Children and Books
Children's Catalog
Elementary School Library Collection
European Historical Fiction and Biography
Guide to Sources in Educational Media
Junior High School Catalog
Library Journal
Reference Books for School Libraries
Subject Guide to Children's Books in Print
Subject Index to Books for Intermediate Grades
Subject Index to Books for Primary Grades
Westinghouse Learning Directory
and as a part of the vertical file index, other
special bibliographies, many of which have been
prepared by educational organizations for
particular subject matter areas.
2. Current reviewing media:
AASA Science Books and Films
Bulletin of the Center for Children's Books
Horn Boo
Kirkus Reviews
Booklists
Library Journal
AFVA Evaluations
School Library Journal
Wilson Library Bulletin
Other sources will be consulted as appropriate.
Whenever possible, the actual resource will be
examined.
B. Recommendations for purchase involve administrators,
teachers, students, district personnel and community
persons, as appropriate.
C. Gift materials shall be judged by the criteria outlined
and shall be accepted or rejected by those criteria.
D. Selection is an ongoing process which should include
the removal of materials no longer appropriate and the
replacement of lost and worn materials still of
educational value.
PART 2
PROCEDURES FOR DEALING WITH CHALLENGED MATERIALS:
I. STATEMENT OF POLICY
Any resident or employee of the school district may formally
challenge learning resources used in the district's
educational program on the basis of appropriateness. This
procedure is for the purpose of considering the opinions of
those persons in the schools and the community who are not
directly involved in the selection process.
II. REQUEST FOR INFORMAL RECONSIDERATION
A. The school receiving a complaint regarding a learning
resource shall try to resolve the issue informally.
1. The principal or other appropriate staff shall
explain to the questioner the school's selection
procedure, criteria, and qualifications of those
persons selecting the resource.
2. The principal or other appropriate staff shall
explain the particular place the questioned
resource occupies in the education program, its
intended educational usefulness, and additional
information regarding its use, or refer the party
to someone who can identify and explain the use of
the resource.
3. If the questioner wishes to file a formal
challenge, a copy of the district Selection of
Learning Resources policy and a Request for
Reconsideration of Learning Resources form shall
be handed or mailed to the party concerned by the
principal.
III. REQUEST FOR FORMAL RECONSIDERATION
A. PRELIMINARY PROCEDURES
1. Each school will keep on hand and make available
Bequest for Reconsideration of Learning Resources
forms. All formal objections to learning
resources must be made on these forms.
2. The Request for Reconsideration of Learning
Resources form shall be signed by the questioner
and filed with the principal or someone so
designated by the principal.
3. The area assistant superintendent and the
assistant superintendent of curriculm services
shall be informed of the formal complaint
received.
4. The request for reconsideration shall be referred
to a reconsideration committee at the school level
for reevaluation of the resource.
5. Requests for reconsideration of materials in
district collections shall be referred to the
school resource center consultative committee for
reevaluation of the resource. This committee may
involve additional personnel as appropriate.
B. THE RECONSIDERATION COMMITTEE
1. Upon receipt of a request for formal
reconsideration of a learning resource, the
principal shall:
a. Appoint a reconsideration committee including
the following membership as appropriate:
--One member of the district staff chosen by
the area assistant superintendent;
--One member of the school teaching staff
chosen by the school staff,
--One member of the resource center
professional staff chosen by the resource
center professional staff;
--One member of the school consultative
committee chosen by the school consultative
committee,
--Two students chosen by the student body.
b. Name a conveyer of the reconsideration
committee.
c. Arrange for a reconsideration committee
meeting within 10 working days after the
complaint is received.
2. The reconsideration committee may choose to
consult district support staff and/or community
persons with related professional knowledge.
3. The reconsideration committee shall review the
challenged resource and judge whether it conforms
to the principles of selection outlined in the
district's Selection of Learning Resources policy.
C. RESOLUTION
1. The reconsideration committed shall:
a. Examine the challenged resource;
b. Determine professional acceptance by reading
critical reviews of the resource;
c. Weigh values and faults and form opinions based on
the material as a whole rather than on passages or
sections taken out of context;
d. Discuss the challenged resource in the context of
the educational program;
e. Discuss the challenged item with the individual
questioner when appropriate;
f. Prepare a written report.
2. The written report shall be discussed with the
individual questioner if requested.
3. The written report shall be retained by the school
principal, with copies forwarded to the assistant
superintendent of curriculum services and the area
assistant superintendent. A minority report may also
be filed.
4. Written reports, once filed, are confidential and
available for examination by trustees and appropriate
officials only.
5. The decision of the reconsideration committee is
binding for the individual school.
6. Notwithstanding any procedure outlined in this policy,
the questioner shall have the right to appeal any
decision of the reconsideration committee to the Board
of Trustees as the final review panel.
D. GUIDING PRINCIPLES
1. Any resident or employee of the school district may
raise objection to learning resources used in a
school's educational program despite the fact that the
individuals selecting such resources were duly
qualified to make the selection, followed the proper
procedure and observed the criteria for selecting
learning resources.
2. The principal should review the selection and objection
rules with the teaching staff at least annually. The
staff should be reminded that the right to object to
learning resources is one granted by policies enacted
by the Board of Trustees.
3. No parent has the right to determine reading, viewing
or listening matter for students other than his/her own
children.
4. School District #1 supports the LIBRARY BILL OF RIGHTS,
adopted by the American Library Association. (A copy
of the LIBRARY BILL OF RIGHTS is attached to this
policy.) When learning resources are challenged, the
principles of the freedom to read/listen/view must be
defended as well.
5. Access to challenged material shall not be restricted
during the reconsideration process.
6. The major criterion for the final decision is the
appropriateness of the material for its intended
educational use.
7. A decision to sustain a challenge shall not necessarily
be interpreted as a judgment of irresponsibility on the
part of the professionals involved in the original
selection and/or use of the material.
WKBK.SEL
[Scanned by Carl M. Kadie 9/21/91]
[Made available by permission of the American Library Association.]
LIBRARY BILL OF RIGHTS
The American Library Association affirms that all libraries are forums for
information and ideas, and that the following basic policies should guide
their services.
1. Books and other library resources should be provided for the
interest, information, and enlightenment of all people of the community the
library serves. Materials should not be excluded because of the origin,
background, or views of those contributing to their creation.
2. Libraries should provide materials and information presenting all
points of view on current and historical issues. Materials should not be
proscribed or removed because of partisan or doctrinal disapproval.
3. Libraries should challenge censorship in the fulfillment of their
responsibility to provide information and enlightenment.
4. Libraries should cooperate with all persons and groups concerned
with resisting abridgment of free expression and free access to ideas.
5. A person's right to use a library should not be denied or abridged
because of origin, age, background, or views.
6. Libraries which make exhibit spaces and meeting rooms available to
the public they serve should make such facilities available on an equitable
basis, regardless of the beliefs or affiliations of individuals or groups
requesting their use.
Adopted June 18, 1948; amended February 2, 1961, and January 23, 1980, by the
ALA Council.
[Made available by permission of the American Library Association.]
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@eff.org or kadie@cs.uiuc.edu
I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
From kadie Sun Sep 29 20:50:19 1991
To: cafb-mail
Subject: Computers and Academic Freedom mailing list (batch edition)
Status: R
Computers and Academic Freedom mailing list (batch edition)
Sun Sep 29 20:49:28 EDT 1991
In this issue:
kadie@eff.org (Car : Re: Ownership rights
kadie@eff.org (Car : Re: ALA "Workbook for Selection Policy Writing"
sbrack@bluemoon.rn : Re: Abstract of "Computers and Academic Freedom News" 1.2
sbrack@bluemoon.rn : Re: Academic Privacy Question
sbrack@bluemoon.rn : Re: Academic Privacy Question
kadie@eff.org (Car : Re: Ownership rights
kadie@eff.org (Car : Re: Academic Privacy Question
zane@ddsw1.MCS.COM : Re: Abstract of "Computers and Academic Freedom News" 1.2
kadie@eff.org (Car : Re: Abstract of "Computers and Academic Freedom News" 1.2
kadie@eff.org (Car : Re: Abstract of "Computers and Academic Freedom News" 1.2
kadie@eff.org (Car : Re: Abstract of "Computers and Academic Freedom News" 1.2
kadie@eff.org (Car : Re: Abstract of "Computers and Academic Freedom News" 1.2
The addresses for the list are now:
comp-academic-freedom-talk@eff.org - for contributions to the list
or caf-talk@eff.org
listserv@eff.org - for automated additions/deletions
(send email with the line "help" for details.)
caf-talk-request@eff.org - for administrivia
-------------------
From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: Ownership rights
Message-ID: <1991Sep21.003722.2592@eff.org>
References: <1991Sep18.195255.11706@eff.org> <1991Sep20.011144.11054@ddsw1.MCS.COM> <2895@aldebaran.cs.nps.navy.mil>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1991 00:37:22 GMT
schweige@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil (Jeffrey M. Schweiger) writes:
[...]
>The payment of tuition alone
>does not guarantee a student unlimited Usenet access. Unless part of the
>appropriate academic program, it may not even guarantee access to any campus
>computer.
I agree with this.
>Tuition is a payment for the education, and rarely, if ever, even
>covers the entire costs of the formal portion of that education.
I agree with this (but it is irrelevent).
>Note that I am not arguing that Usenet should be restricted, etc., just that
>the paying of tuition does not imply a "right" to unlimited Usenet access.
[...]
I agree with this this, but would add something.
Paying tuition does give students *some* rights; it gives them
contractual rights. If the student handbook says that students will
not be censored and that students can have a free computer account,
then students have a right to be free of censorship and to have a free
computer account.
- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@eff.org or kadie@cs.uiuc.edu
I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
-------------------
From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: ALA "Workbook for Selection Policy Writing"
Message-ID: <1991Sep21.215316.833@eff.org>
References: <1991Sep21.193707.22331@eff.org>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1991 21:53:16 GMT
Here are some suggestions from the Workbook:
You should have a selection policy.
The policy should name by professional position those persons who will
have selection responsibility.
The policy should explain the selection criteria and procedure. (The
Workbook contains many suggestions.)
The policy should address controversial materials. It should include a
statement on intellectual freedom and why it is important.
The policy should include a procedure on reconsideration. The Workbook
include sample procedure, letters, forms, and principles. For example:
e. In accordance with statement of philosophy, no
questioned materials shall be removed from the
school pending a final decision. Pending the
outcome of the request for reconsideration,
however, access to questioned materials can be
denied to the child (or children) of the parents
making the complaint, if they so desire.
(The Workbook includes a complete sample policy.)
- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@eff.org or kadie@cs.uiuc.edu
I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
-------------------
From: sbrack@bluemoon.rn.com (Steven S. Brack)
Subject: Re: Abstract of "Computers and Academic Freedom News" 1.25
Message-ID:
Sender: nstar!bluemoon!sbrack@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu
References: <4266@chalmers.se>
Date: 21 Sep 91 23:45:23 GMT
Approved: usenet@eff.org
nstar!iuvax!dtek.chalmers.se!d9bertil (Bertil Jonell) writes:
> In article <1991Sep14.223653.21626@eff.org> kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie) wri
> >The next three notes concern the freedom to read Netnews. The first
> >note explains why a sys admin may not want to carry a controversial
> >newsgroup such as alt.sex.
>
> Is there still a federal law in the US that prohibits "Transporting obscene
> materials across state borders."?
>
> How would this impact upon alt.sex.pictures?
NOTE: I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on NetNews 8)
I believe the main thing to keep in mind is that a.s.p. is not
necessarily obscene. It may, at times, be somewhat explicit,
but it's no worse than most X-rated movies, which are routinely
transported across state lines.
The question of NetNews access by minors, however, is another
story. The operator here requires proof of age before allowing
"adult" access. Other sites, it is rumored, have been forced
to drop alt.sex.* or face prosecution. Opinions?
> >Carl Kadie -- kadie@eff.org or kadie@cs.uiuc.edu
> >I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
>
> -bertil-
> --
> "Det a"r en Svensk grej. Du skulle inte fo"rsta^..."
-- Steve
_________________________________________________________________________
|Steven S. Brack | sbrack%bluemoon@nstar.rn.com |
|Jacob E. Taylor Honors Tower | sbrack@bluemoon.uucp |
|The Ohio State University | sbrack@nyx.cs.du.edu |
|50 Curl Drive | sbrack@isis.cs.du.edu |
|Columbus, Ohio 43210-1112 USA | brack@ewf.eng.ohio-state.edu |
|+1 614 293 7383 or 419 474 1010 | Steven.S.Brack@osu.edu |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------
From: sbrack@bluemoon.rn.com (Steven S. Brack)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID:
Sender: nstar!bluemoon!sbrack@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu
References:
Date: 21 Sep 91 23:38:54 GMT
Approved: usenet@eff.org
nstar!iuvax!nstar!bluemoon!sbrack (Steven S. Brack) writes:
> "No-red beads?" Do(we pezhaps wqtch8the same TV
Sender: nstar!bluemoon!sbrack@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu
References: <1991Sep16.135211.16610@ms.uky.edu>
Date: 21 Sep 91 23:51:24 GMT
Approved: usenet@eff.org
nstar!iuvax!ms.uky.edu!morgan (Wes Morgan) writes:
> (I'd also point out the rather small possibility of an *accidental*
> crosspost between alt.sex.bondage and comp.emacs......8) )
I thank you. 8)
>
> >Overall, the most rational choice is to either carry the full service,
> >provide disclaimers (and require acceptance of the disclaimer prior to
> >the provision of service) or don't carry the service at all.
>
> I wonder how many sites in Usenet actually carry a full feed?
> Does anyone have a guess on this one?
The machines @ magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu carry a nearly full news
feed. Alt.sex.pix is missing, but I have been told that its
absence is due to space limitations, not censorship. I don't
believe any other "controversial" groups are not carried, at least
for reasons of content.
-- Steve
Disclaimer: I'm only an "ME freshman who thinks he has the world by its
sensitive appendages." How could my views represent Ohio
State's? :S
>
> --
> morgan@ms.uky.edu |Wes Morgan, not speaking for| ....!ukma!ukecc!morg
> morgan@engr.uky.edu |the University of Kentucky's| morgan%engr.uky.edu@UK
> morgan@ie.pa.uky.edu |Engineering Computing Center| morgan@wuarchive.wustl.e
_________________________________________________________________________
|Steven S. Brack | sbrack%bluemoon@nstar.rn.com |
|Jacob E. Taylor Honors Tower | sbrack@bluemoon.uucp |
|The Ohio State University | sbrack@nyx.cs.du.edu |
|50 Curl Drive | sbrack@isis.cs.du.edu |
|Columbus, Ohio 43210-1112 USA | brack@ewf.eng.ohio-state.edu |
|+1 614 293 7383 or 419 474 1010 | Steven.S.Brack@osu.edu |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------
From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: Ownership rights
Message-ID: <1991Sep22.023904.5086@eff.org>
References: <17840DD99E401E65@ccmail.sunysb.edu>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1991 02:39:04 GMT
I wrote:
>Paying tuition does give students *some* rights; it gives them
>contractual rights. If the student handbook says that students will
>not be censored and that students can have a free computer account,
>then students have a right to be free of censorship and to have a free
>computer account.
SKAPUR@ccmail.sunysb.edu (Sanjay Kapur) writes:
>What if the same handbook says (or implies) that the free account also comes
>with a set of (maybe unwritten) rules? What if the free account is limited
>by custom or otherwise for instructional use only?
[...]
Written rules on the use of the free account would also part of the
contract between University and student (especially, if the Handbook
alludes to them.)
Unwritten rules are a bit of a problem. Unwritten rules that the
students don't know about are a bigger problem. Unwritten, secret
rules that overwrite written rules are an even bigger problem.
- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@eff.org or kadie@cs.uiuc.edu
I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
-------------------
From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: Academic Privacy Question
Message-ID: <1991Sep22.024825.5272@eff.org>
References: <18655FE32E401E65@ccmail.sunysb.edu>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1991 02:48:25 GMT
SKAPUR@ccmail.sunysb.edu (Sanjay Kapur) asks about this senerio:
* neither alt.sex nor alt.boomerang a central to the mission of your machine.
* that the cost to alt.sex is slightly lower
* that interest in alt.sex is slightly higher
* that alt.sex is available on another machine that your users
have access to, but alt.boomerang is not.
In my opinion, then you would have to use your professional judgement
to balance the cost, interest, and ease of access.
- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@eff.org or kadie@cs.uiuc.edu
I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
-------------------
From: zane@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Sameer Parekh)
Subject: Re: Abstract of "Computers and Academic Freedom News" 1.25
Message-ID: <1991Sep22.032539.11123@ddsw1.MCS.COM>
References: <4266@chalmers.se>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 91 03:25:39 GMT
In article sbrack@bluemoon.rn.com (Steven S. Brack) writes:
>> How would this impact upon alt.sex.pictures?
>
> NOTE: I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on NetNews 8)
>
> I believe the main thing to keep in mind is that a.s.p. is not
> necessarily obscene. It may, at times, be somewhat explicit,
> but it's no worse than most X-rated movies, which are routinely
> transported across state lines.
>
> The question of NetNews access by minors, however, is another
> story. The operator here requires proof of age before allowing
> "adult" access. Other sites, it is rumored, have been forced
> to drop alt.sex.* or face prosecution. Opinions?
My opinion, as I have stated here before, is that limiting anything
to anyone on the basis of age is simple prejudice--wrong plain and
simple...limiting something to someone based on maturity is not wrong, but
who's to say that if you're under 18 you're immature?
Discriminating on the basis of age is just as bad as discriminating
on the basis of race, religion, or sex.
--
Sameer Parekh -- zane@ddsw1.MCS.COM zane@infopls.chi.il.us
Ask me about the Mail Your Congressperson Through the Net projectb
Apple IIGS Forever! Ask me about the GNOmultitasking project!
-------------------
From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: Abstract of "Computers and Academic Freedom News" 1.25
Message-ID: <1991Sep22.154115.19521@eff.org>
References: <4266@chalmers.se> <1991Sep22.032539.11123@ddsw1.MCS.COM>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1991 15:41:15 GMT
zane@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Sameer Parekh) writes:
[...]
> My opinion, as I have stated here before, is that limiting anything
>to anyone on the basis of age is simple prejudice--wrong plain and
>simple...limiting something to someone based on maturity is not wrong, but
>who's to say that if you're under 18 you're immature?
> Discriminating on the basis of age is just as bad as discriminating
>on the basis of race, religion, or sex.
[...]
Librarians agree with you. They think that the access decisions belong
to your parents, not to information providers. Here are two policy
statements that explain their stand.
FREE ACCESS TO LIBRARIES FOR MINORS
An Interpretation of the LIBRARY BILL OF RIGHTS
Library policies and procedures which effectively deny minors equal access to
all library resources available to other users violate the LIBRARY BILL OF
RIGHTS. The American Library Association opposes all attempts to restrict
access to library services, materials, and facilities based on the age of
library users.
Article V of the LIBRARY BILL OF RIGHTS states, "A person's right to use a
library should not be denied or abridged because of origin, age, background,
or views." The "right to use a library" includes free access to, and
unrestricted use of, all the services, materials, and facilities the library
has to offer. Every restriction on access to, and use of, library resources,
based solely on the chronological age, educational level, or legal
emancipation of users violates Article V.
Libraries are charged with the mission of developing resources to meet the
diverse information needs and interests of the communities they serve.
Services, materials, and facilities which fulfill the needs and interests of
library users at different stages in their personal development are a
necessary part of library resources. The needs and interests of each library
user, and resources appropriate to meet those needs and interests, must be
determined on an individual basis. Librarians cannot predict what resources
will best fulfill the needs and interests of any individual user based on a
single criterion such as chronological age, level of education, or legal
emancipation.
The selection and development of library resources should not be diluted
because of minors having the same access to library resources as adult users.
Institutional self-censorship diminishes the credibility of the library in the
community, and restricts access for all library users.
Librarians and governing bodies should not resort to age restrictions on
access to library resources in an effort to avoid actual or anticipated
objections from parents or anyone else. The mission, goals, and objectives of
libraries do not authorize librarians or governing bodies to assume, abrogate,
or overrule the rights and responsibilities of parents or legal guardians.
Librarians and governing bodies should maintain that parents - and only
parents - have the right and the responsibility to restrict the access of
their children - and only their children - to library resources. Parents or
legal guardians who do not want their children to have access to certain
library services, materials or facilities, should so advise their children.
Librarians and governing bodies cannot assume the role of parents or the
functions of parental authority in the private relationship between parent and
child. Librarians and governing bodies have a public and professional
obligation to provide equal access to all library resources for all library
users.
Librarians have a professional commitment to ensure that all members of the
community they serve have free and equal access to the entire range of library
resources regardless of content, approach, format, or amount of detail. This
principle of library service applies equally to all users, minors as well as
adults. Librarians and governing bodies must uphold this principle in order
to provide adequate and effective service to minors.
Adopted June 30, 1972; amended July 1, 1981; July 3, 1991, by the ALA Council.
[Made available by permission of the American Library Association.]
------
ACCESS FOR CHILDREN AND YOUNG PEOPLE TO VIDEOTAPES
AND OTHER NONPRINT FORMATS
An Interpretation of the LIBRARY BILL OF RIGHTS
Library collections of videotapes, motion pictures, and other nonprint formats
raise a number of intellectual freedom issues, especially regarding minors.
The interests of young people, like those of adults, are not limited by
subject, theme, or level of sophistication. Librarians have a responsibility
to ensure young people have access to materials and services that reflect
diversity sufficient to meet their needs.
To guide librarians and others in resolving these issues, the American Library
Association provides the following guidelines.
Article V of the LIBRARY BILL OF RIGHTS says, "A person's right to use a
library should not be denied or abridged because of origin, age, background,
or views."
ALA's FREE ACCESS TO LIBRARIES FOR MINORS: An Interpretation of the LIBRARY
BILL OF RIGHTS states:
The "right to use a library" includes free access to, and unrestricted
use of, all the services, materials, and facilities the library has to
offer. Every restriction on access to, and use of, library resources,
based solely on the chronological age, educational level, or legal
emancipation of users violates Article V.
. . .[P]arents - and only parents - have the right and the
responsibility to restrict the access of their children - and only their
children - to library resources. Parents or legal guardians who do not
want their children to have access to certain library services,
materials or facilities, should so advise their children. Librarians
and governing bodies cannot assume the role of parents or the functions
of parental authority in the private relationship between parent and
child. Librarians and governing bodies have a public and professional
obligation to provide equal access to all library resources for all
library users.
Policies which set minimum age limits for access to videotapes and/or other
audiovisual materials and equipment, with or without parental permission,
abridge library use for minors. Further, age limits based on the cost of the
materials are unacceptable. Unless directly and specifically prohibited by
law from circulating certain motion pictures and video productions to minors,
librarians should apply the same standards to circulation of these materials
as are applied to books and other materials.
Recognizing that libraries cannot act in loco parentis, ALA acknowledges and
supports the exercise by parents of their responsibility to guide their won
children's reading and viewing. Published reviews of films and videotapes
and/or reference works which provide information about the content, subject
matter, and recommended audiences can be made available in conjunction with
nonprint collections to assist parents in guiding their children without
implicating the library in censorship. This material may include information
provided by video producers and distributors, promotional material on
videotape packaging, and Motion Picture Association of America (MPAA) ratings
if they are included on the tape or in the packaging by the original publisher
and/or if they appear in review sources or reference works included in the
library's collection. Marking out or removing ratings information from
videotape packages constitutes expurgation or censorship.
MPAA and other rating services are private advisory codes and have no legal
standing*. For the library to add such ratings to the materials if they are
not already there, to post a list of such ratings with a collection, or to
attempt to enforce such ratings through circulation policies or other
procedures constitutes labeling, "an attempt to prejudice attitudes" about the
material, and is unacceptable. The application of locally generated ratings
schemes intended to provide content warnings to library users is also
inconsistent with the LIBRARY BILL OF RIGHTS.
*For information on case law, please contact the ALA Office for Intellectual
Freedom.
See also: STATEMENT ON LABELING and EXPURGATION OF LIBRARY MATERIALS,
Interpretations of the LIBRARY BILL OF RIGHTS.
Adopted June 28, 1989, by the ALA Council; the quotation from FREE ACCESS TO
LIBRARIES FOR MINORS was changed after Council adopted the July 3, 1991,
revision of that Interpretation.
[Made available by permission of the American Library Association.]
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@eff.org or kadie@cs.uiuc.edu
I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
-------------------
Xref: eff alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk:1016 comp.admin.policy:1000
From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: Abstract of "Computers and Academic Freedom News" 1.25
Message-ID: <1991Sep22.154230.19630@eff.org>
References: <1991Sep14.223653.21626@eff.org> <4266@chalmers.se>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1991 15:42:30 GMT
d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell) writes:
[...]
> Is there still a federal law in the US that prohibits "Transporting obscene
>materials across state borders."?
[...]
I am not aware of such a law.
- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@eff.org or kadie@cs.uiuc.edu
I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
-------------------
From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: Abstract of "Computers and Academic Freedom News" 1.25
Message-ID: <1991Sep22.155015.19778@eff.org>
References: <4266@chalmers.se>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1991 15:50:15 GMT
sbrack@bluemoon.rn.com (Steven S. Brack) writes:
>nstar!iuvax!dtek.chalmers.se!d9bertil (Bertil Jonell) writes:
[...]
> The question of NetNews access by minors, however, is another
> story. The operator here requires proof of age before allowing
> "adult" access.
This policy is inconsistent with the Library Bill of Rights on two
counts. [Disclaimer: I know that Bluemoon.rn.com has never promised to
be consistent with the Library Bill of Rights.] First, it takes the
access decision away from the parent. Second, it labels some material
as adult.
Here is the ALA policy on labeling:
STATEMENT ON LABELING
An Interpretation of the LIBRARY BILL OF RIGHTS
Labeling is the practice of describing or designating materials by affixing a
prejudicial label and/or segregating them by a prejudicial system. The
American Library Association opposes these means of predisposing people's
attitudes toward library materials for the following reasons:
1. Labeling is an attempt to prejudice attitudes and as such, it is a
censor's tool.
2. Some find it easy and even proper, according to their ethics, to
establish criteria for judging publications as objectionable. However,
injustice and ignorance rather than justice and enlightenment result
from such practices, and the American Library Association opposes the
establishment of such criteria.
3. Libraries do not advocate the ideas found in their collections. The
presence of books and other resources in a library does not indicate
endorsement of their contents by the library.
A variety of private organizations promulgate rating systems and/or review
materials as a means of advising either their members or the general public
concerning their opinions of the contents and suitability or appropriate age
for use of certain books, films, recordings, or other materials. For the
library to adopt or enforce any of these private systems, to attach such
ratings to library materials, to include them in bibliographic records,
library catalogs, or other finding aids, or otherwise to endorse them would
violate the LIBRARY BILL OF RIGHTS.
While some attempts have been made to adopt these systems into law, the
constitutionality of such measures is extremely questionable. If such
legislation is passed which applies within a library's jurisdiction, the
library should seek competent legal advice concerning its applicability to
library operations.
Publishers, industry groups, and distributors sometimes add ratings to
material or include them as part of their packaging. Librarians should not
endorse such practices. However, removing or obliterating such ratings -- if
placed there by or with permission of the copyright holder -- could constitute
expurgation, which is also unacceptable.
The American Library Association opposes efforts which aim at closing any path
to knowledge. This statement, however, does not exclude the adoption of
organizational schemes designed as directional aids or to facilitate access to
materials.
Adopted July 13, 1951. Amended June 25, 1971; July 1, 1981; June 26, 1990, by
the ALA Council.
[Made available by permission of the American Library Association.]
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@eff.org or kadie@cs.uiuc.edu
I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
-------------------
From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: Abstract of "Computers and Academic Freedom News" 1.25
Message-ID: <1991Sep22.155158.20029@eff.org>
References: <4266@chalmers.se>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1991 15:51:58 GMT
sbrack@bluemoon.rn.com (Steven S. Brack) writes:
[...]
> Other sites, it is rumored, have been forced
> to drop alt.sex.* or face prosecution.
[...]
I have not heard this rumor. I do not think the rumor is true.
- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@eff.org or kadie@cs.uiuc.edu
I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
